Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

You do have a point about Champa but then again, Vegeta fought Frost as a Super Saiyan and the latter did OK. I also find it very odd that after 3 transformations Frost would still be weaker than base Goku when his 3rd form wasn't exactly that far from him.

Well perhaps Frost is above Base form but several notches below Super Saiyan and Frieza is about as strong as Super Saiyan or more even.

Wouldn't that make his Golden form 50 times stronger than RoF?

This also doesn't answer why he went to all that trouble just to eliminate Frost if he's stronger.

[JazzMazz]

You do have a point about Champa but then again, Vegeta fought Frost as a Super Saiyan and the latter did OK. I also find it very odd that after 3 transformations Frost would still be weaker than base Goku when his 3rd form wasn't exactly that far from him.

Well perhaps Frost is above Base form but several notches below Super Saiyan and Frieza is about as strong as Super Saiyan or more even.

Wouldn't that make his Golden form 50 times stronger than RoF?

This also doesn't answer why he went to all that trouble just to eliminate Frost if he's stronger.

Depends on which version you abide by really.

It makes a lot more sense in the manga.

[AvatarReiko]

Is Royal Blue stronger than KKx20?

[dbgtFO]

Is Royal Blue stronger than KKx20?

It should be, at least after Vegeta gets his family boost against Toppo, because prior to that point he wasn't doing any differently than KKx20 against Jiren.

[AvatarReiko]

Is Royal Blue stronger than KKx20?

It should be, at least after Vegeta gets his family boost against Toppo, because prior to that point he wasn't doing any differently than KKx20 against Jiren.

So Royal Blue>KKx20>MSSJB(Manga)>SSJB?

[dbgtFO]

Is Royal Blue stronger than KKx20?

It should be, at least after Vegeta gets his family boost against Toppo, because prior to that point he wasn't doing any differently than KKx20 against Jiren.

So Royal Blue>KKx20>MSSJB(Manga)>SSJB?

That seems reasonable, yeah. Though I wouldn't see the problem in KKx20 equaling the manga's MSSB.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Is Royal Blue stronger than KKx20?

They are about equal.

[Bullza]

Wouldn't that make his Golden form 50 times stronger than RoF?

This also doesn't answer why he went to all that trouble just to eliminate Frost if he's stronger.

50 times stronger? As in Final Form Frieza would have gone from being equal to Base Goku to being equal to Super Saiyan Goku? If so it would be a lot more than that anyway with how strong Goku has gotten since then.

It would actually depend on really just how strong Final Form Frieza was in comparison to Base Goku anyway. The series back then implied that Goku had to transform to surpass him.

Who really knows, it's all odd to me. All I can really go on is the simple things.

- Final Form Frieza was implied to be stronger than Base Goku back then.

- Final Form Frost was weaker than Super Saiyan.

- Final Form Frost was said to stand no chance against Final Form Frieza.

How that all fits together in terms of any numbers I couldn't say. That he kicked around Jimeze who Goku had to turn Super Saiyan for is something. I'd guess Frieza was about on par with Super Saiyan and Frost was considerably weaker but strong enough to at least tangle with Super Saiyan for a bit.

[TheDipDap1234]

Those poachers actually gave Goten and Trunks a pretty rough time lol. Both of them were very battle damaged. Marron on the other hand didn't have a single scratch on her face.

So Marron >> Goten and Trunks > Poachers?

Well that's if Marron didn't actually fight them at all, and was just watching the fight. I'm more impressed about those poachers. How did some regular human beings with guns manage to damage 2 saiyan kids? Man, no wonder 17 got so strong after fighting with them for so many years.

[Issei189]

So the scaling goes like this.

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Andriod 17
Gohan
Piccolo or Andriod 18
Kuririn
Roshi or Tien

Piccolo, Andriod 18, Roshi and Tien are interchangable. It's really hard to say who's stronger b/w Piccolo and Andriod 18

[Legion]

So Goku can't use UI anymore and Whis is the biggest deus ex machina. Cool.

[wolflonnie]

First of all I think Vegeta didn't lose Blue Evolution, they were just sparring. Remember Goku can still use Blue Kaiohken x 20. Vegeta just wanted to challenge Ultra Instict.
So, I think this is the final tiering for U7, at least for the time being:

- UI Goku
- KKx20 Goku / SSBE Vegeta
- SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Frieza
- 17
- Ultimate Gohan
- Piccolo
- 18
- Krillin
- Tenshinhan
- Roshi

And if we add the other characters...

- UI Goku
- KKx20 Goku / SSBE Vegeta
- SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Frieza
- 17
- Ultimate Gohan
- Piccolo
- 18 / Good Buu / Gotenks
- Goten / Trunks
- Krillin
- Tenshinhan
- Roshi
- Yamcha

[Mercenary]

With Goku losing UI, I guess it's fair to say : Vegeta > Goku now

[Saturnine]

Yep, Vegeta I believe is intended to parallel Goku's KKx20 with his Evolution form. That means in a long fight he easily takes it.

Unless you really wanna go on Vegeta's side here and use his Toppo power, which I think was portrayed as surpassing Goku's KKx20. I think this sort of power would only come in emotional turmoil though, so I'm leaning towards thinking Vegeta's regular Evo power equal's Goku's KKx20.

[Marlowe89]

Time to post my updated tier list now that the anime is finished. This ranking is not final; a lot of these characters are prone to inconsistencies and outliers, so they could be much higher or lower depending on what the manga ends up showing.

[spoiler]Important: This tier list subscribes to (and operates from) three chief ideas -- 1.) that the base power of Goku and Vegeta has been retconned from God-level down to being somewhat greater than their Buu Saga levels at some point during the story, presumably to make all scales between mediums consistent, 2.) that this order is based exclusively on how I interpreted each character's general raw strength, as certain strategies and special abilities (such as Hit's Time-Skip) can allow one to outperform characters who are much higher than them on the list, and 3.) that the power scales of the anime, manga, and Toriyama's drafts are (more or less) the same, barring any medium-exclusive forms or inconsistencies with Toei's writing staff. If you disagree with any of these interpretations at their basic premise, you're probably not going to agree with much of anything in this list; I'd advise moving along in that case.


Color Code:
Anime-only characters/forms are highlighted in blue.
Manga-only characters/forms are highlighted in red.
Movie-only and retconned characters/forms are highlighted in green.


Elder God Tier

Zeno
Grand Minister

Higher God Tier

Whis | Vados
Ultra Instinct Goku
Jiren
Beerus | Super Saiyan Blue Vegito
Ultra Instinct -Sign- Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta
Champa | God of Destruction Mode Toppo | Legendary Super Saiyan 2 Kefla
Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)
Legendary Super Saiyan Kefla
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X20 Goku
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken X10 Goku

God Tier

Anilaza
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
Fused Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza | Toppo
Super Maximum Light Speed Mode Dyspo (Speed-Enhanced Strength)
Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Dyspo (Speed-Enhanced Strength)
Hit
Super Saiyan God Goku | Super Saiyan God Vegeta | Final Form Frieza
Saiyan Beyond God Goku | Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta

Top Tier

Super Saiyan Goku Black
Legendary Super Saiyan Kale
Ultimate Gohan | Android 17
Koichiarator
Saonel | Pirina
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (Strengthened)

High Tier

Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (Strengthened)
Shape-Up Majin Buu
Obuni
Majin Buu
Maji Kayo
Basil (Drug-Enhanced)
Piccolo
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
Zamasu
Monna (Expanded)
Koitsukai | Bollarator | Panchia

Mid Tier

Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan Caulifla
Super Saiyan Cabba
Super Saiyan Kale
Magetta
Raging Battle Mode Katopesla | Ultimate Mode Katopesla
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Android 18
Viara
Dyspo (Default Strength)
Kahseral
Tupper
Kunshi
Zoiray
Vuon
Cocotte
Kettol
Rubalt
Murichim
Napapa

Low Tier

Trunks
Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Caulifla
Monna
Cabba
Kale
Bergamo
Basil
Lavender
Kakunsa
Rozie
Hop
Hyssop
Chappil
Comfrey
Gamisaras | Damon
Botamo
Oregano
Roselle
Narirama
Master Roshi (Talisman-Enhanced)
The Preecho
Jimeze
Shosa

Bottom Tier

Majora
Krillin
Tien
Hermila
Master Roshi
Ganos (Transformed)
Vikal
Nigrisshi
Nink
Ganos
Dercori
Jirasen
Paparoni
Rabanra | Zarbuto | Zirloin
Jilcol
Lilibeu
Katopesla
Shisami
Dr. Rota
Prum
Caway
Gryll
Zium
Methiop
Murisarm
Sorel
Jaco
Shantza
Monaka

Fluctuant Tier

Arale
Giant Bergamo

Inconsistent Writing Tier

Ribrianne[/spoiler]

[Hugo Boss]

But Piccolo had an advantage No.18 didn't, which was seeing Gamisaras. I wouldn't call that strong evidence on his favor.

Gamisaras attacked 18 on a straight line and managed to break her defenses and almost got her eliminated.

He's on her level and Piccolo trashed him easily.

It was said they couldn’t attack and defend properly because they couldn’t see and sense his ki. Once Piccolo saw him, he wasn’t much.

[Zamasu55]

Looooooool Toei managed to mess power levels up even in the final episode.

Jiren getting beaten by 17 and Freeza made no sense, because those two were supposed to be more wounded than him.

[Cetra]

[spoiler]| standing for not just the same level but also +-

Zenou | Zenou Alternate | Universal Cheat Invincibility Mode Zamasu
Daishhinkan
Angels
Migatte no Goku'i Son Gokuu
Jiren
Migatte no Goku'i Kizashi Son Gokuu | Legendary Super Saiyajin 2 Kafla | Gattai Zamasu | Vegetto Blue| Hakaishin | Character x' Impulsive & Mobilization Attacks (Genkidama Slash, Kaiouken Kick, ...)
Son Gokuu Divine Kaiouken | Vegeta Blue Evolution | Jishou Hakaishin Toppo | Character x' Impulsive & Mobilization Attacks (LSSJ Kale's Rampage & Resilience, et cetera, ...) | Anilaza
Kale Controlled LSSJ | Hit | Son Gokuu, Vegeta SSJB (ToP)| Golden Freeza (ToP) | Super Saiyajin Rose Goku Black
I guess somewhere aroundhere Bergamo's absorption limit could be - who knows; just so it was mentioned
Goku and Vegeta before
Son Gohan | Nr. 17
Pirina | Saonel | Caulifla, Cabba SSJ2 | Zamasu Alternate

And then the rest I don't care about.[/spoiler]

[TheSaiyanGod]

So the scaling goes like this.

Goku
Vegeta
Frieza
Andriod 17
Gohan
Piccolo or Andriod 18
Kuririn
Roshi or Tien

Piccolo, Andriod 18, Roshi and Tien are interchangable. It's really hard to say who's stronger b/w Piccolo and Andriod 18

I do not think 18 is on the same level as Piccolo.

In fact, while Piccolo had been training all this time and overcame Gohan SSJ2 easily, 18 did nothing, only fought with Kuririn before the tournament.

Yep, Vegeta I believe is intended to parallel Goku's KKx20 with his Evolution form. That means in a long fight he easily takes it.

Unless you really wanna go on Vegeta's side here and use his Toppo power, which I think was portrayed as surpassing Goku's KKx20. I think this sort of power would only come in emotional turmoil though, so I'm leaning towards thinking Vegeta's regular Evo power equal's Goku's KKx20.

I don't see why Vegeta's power up against Toppo is not valid here.

He only surpassed Toppo after this boost, and on EP 127, when Vegeta confronts Jiren, Jiren himself says he understands how Vegeta managed to defeat his partner (basically confirming Vegeta> Toppo and that vegeta kept this power up).

If Vegeta no longer had this power up, then he would be less than Toppo, but that was not what happened

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

An easy way to reconcile Vegeta and Goku being equals without Ultra Instinct is to say that Vegeta only "surpassed" Hakaishin Toppo's FULL power with his Final Explosion, and that in terms of "regular power", ESSB Vegeta is still equal to SSB/KKx20 Goku.