Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sun Apr 08, 2018 8:25 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks? Shouldn't the Ultimate Gohan and fat Buu stuff have debunked that completely or do people actually believe that Gohan got a thousand times stronger in like a week and Bergamo is a thousand times stronger than his brothers?
Yeah, people would rather keep every piece of information as canon, rather than treat some feats as outliers of what the characters should be capable of.
Or maybe, just maybe (sarcasm on the word “maybe”), since gohan is around ssb level in his mystic form, and ssb level characters put ss vegito to shame, gohan did get thousands of times more powerful than when he fought super buu.
He doesn't need to be that close to SSB in order to fight him for a couple of second(which was really, all it was), or are you going to tell me that SSB Goku is comparable to Jiren because they were able to have an extended exchange of blows?

Hell, I think the stuff I believe is extremely out of whack(namely that Gohan got to a similar level of power as his SS2 form in 88 through his training, which is already an insane boost), but I think my line of thinking at least makes sense with the information and contradictions to information presented to us.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Sun Apr 08, 2018 9:46 pm

JazzMazz wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Yeah, people would rather keep every piece of information as canon, rather than treat some feats as outliers of what the characters should be capable of.
Or maybe, just maybe (sarcasm on the word “maybe”), since gohan is around ssb level in his mystic form, and ssb level characters put ss vegito to shame, gohan did get thousands of times more powerful than when he fought super buu.
He doesn't need to be that close to SSB in order to fight him for a couple of second(which was really, all it was), or are you going to tell me that SSB Goku is comparable to Jiren because they were able to have an extended exchange of blows?

Hell, I think the stuff I believe is extremely out of whack(namely that Gohan got to a similar level of power as his SS2 form in 88 through his training, which is already an insane boost), but I think my line of thinking at least makes sense with the information and contradictions to information presented to us.

Your reason Makes the least sense. he is physically stronger than dyspo, who is physically stronger than a ssg goku (tho physically weaker than a ssjb level opponent, but can keep up with their power thanks to his speed). Ultimate gohan is at the level of ssb. Theres no denying that. To deny that is to call all the episodes where gohan fought ssb level opponents outliers, which they arent. Glad you are the only one who is downplaying gohan here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:42 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe (sarcasm on the word “maybe”), since gohan is around ssb level in his mystic form, and ssb level characters put ss vegito to shame, gohan did get thousands of times more powerful than when he fought super buu.
He doesn't need to be that close to SSB in order to fight him for a couple of second(which was really, all it was), or are you going to tell me that SSB Goku is comparable to Jiren because they were able to have an extended exchange of blows?

Hell, I think the stuff I believe is extremely out of whack(namely that Gohan got to a similar level of power as his SS2 form in 88 through his training, which is already an insane boost), but I think my line of thinking at least makes sense with the information and contradictions to information presented to us.
Your reason Makes the least sense. he is physically stronger than dyspo, who is physically stronger than a ssg goku (tho physically weaker than a ssjb level opponent, but can keep up with their power thanks to his speed). Ultimate gohan is at the level of ssb. Theres no denying that. To deny that is to call all the episodes where gohan fought ssb level opponents outliers, which they arent. Glad you are the only one who is downplaying gohan here.
Toppo, who is Blue level, fight both Gohan and No.17 at the same time and he seems more in advantage than them. So, it doesn’t seem like they are Blue level for me.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:49 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Or maybe, just maybe (sarcasm on the word “maybe”), since gohan is around ssb level in his mystic form, and ssb level characters put ss vegito to shame, gohan did get thousands of times more powerful than when he fought super buu.
He doesn't need to be that close to SSB in order to fight him for a couple of second(which was really, all it was), or are you going to tell me that SSB Goku is comparable to Jiren because they were able to have an extended exchange of blows?

Hell, I think the stuff I believe is extremely out of whack(namely that Gohan got to a similar level of power as his SS2 form in 88 through his training, which is already an insane boost), but I think my line of thinking at least makes sense with the information and contradictions to information presented to us.

Your reason Makes the least sense. he is physically stronger than dyspo, who is physically stronger than a ssg goku (tho physically weaker than a ssjb level opponent, but can keep up with their power thanks to his speed). Ultimate gohan is at the level of ssb. Theres no denying that. To deny that is to call all the episodes where gohan fought ssb level opponents outliers, which they arent. Glad you are the only one who is downplaying gohan here.
When was it shown that Dyspo was purely physically stronger than SSG? He was only really shown to be troublesome opponent for SSG Goku because of his speed, which was something Gohan had to neutralize in order to outfight Dyspo in a one on one.
My point is that Gohan doesn't need to exactly be SSB level to fight people of that level. The only real arguably SSB level character that he fought for a little while by himself besides Goku, was Koichirator(I think thats his name), either way, the technical aspects of that fight were sketchy to say the least. I will at least admit that Gohan is definitely a god tier fighter though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:16 am

Dyspo isn't even close to Final Form Frieza in terms of physical strength and the latter is only comparable to Base Goku, so I don't know where the idea comes from that his strength is a match for any transformed Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:25 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Dyspo isn't even close to Final Form Frieza in terms of physical strength and the latter is only comparable to Base Goku, so I don't know where the idea comes from that his strength is a match for any transformed Saiyan.
I think Freeza's strength has been rectonned, at the very least, in the anime, to be somewhat comparable to that of Super Saiyan character.

In the manga it makes a little more sense for this to be the case(beyond the fact we don't know how strong Freeza was in comparison to Goku in his final form in ROF), since if Freeza is now equal with mastered SSB, it would only be logical for his final forms power to increase past.

Here's a visual reference to what I'm getting at.

ROF
Goku Base = Freeza Base
SSB Goku< Gold Freeza

TOP
MSSB=Golden Freeza
Goku Base<Freeza?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:42 am

Oddly enough, Final Form Frieza seemed to be able to put up a better fight against Dyspo than Hit did. Not only did he take the punches better but he was at least able to keep tracking Dyspo's speed to counter him.

Hit outright said he couldn't see Dyspo's moves.

Things like that is what makes it so confusing. It would imply that Final Form Frieza is God level but in the Resurrection F saga he was Base level, maybe a bit above. Of course in the movie he was weaker than Base Goku.

Now there's people saying he's Super Saiyan level so even just for him there's multiple alternatives.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:07 am

Wouldn't be surprised if Hit is Base Saiyan tier now, the dude's totally irrelevant on the power scale by this point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:13 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:Wouldn't be surprised if Hit is Base Saiyan tier now, the dude's totally irrelevant on the power scale by this point.
I feel like this will probably give way to inconsistencies in the future.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:52 am

It's funny. People would probably have a similarly hard time (and similarly insane theories about how everyone got a million times stronger in days) deciphering the power hierarchy of Dragon Ball Z if all they had to go on was the anime, and not the associated manga volumes. We'd probably get people saying that SS2 Goku is stronger than Ultimate Gohan at the midpoint of the Buu arc based on that fight in Buu's body (though right after that he gets eaaily beaten by base Super Buu, so I guess Buu got stronger too), that Gohan got a hundred times stronger in about an hour on Namek because he was able to smack around 100% Freeza, that base Goku in the Buu arc is stronger than his SS self in the Cell arc because of his brief clash with Dabra and the Pikkon stuff, and that Tensninhan is stronger than Semi-Perfect Cell at the Cell Games based on being able to fend off and hurt a Cell Jr. Among other things.
The Monkey King wrote:
RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:57 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:I know it's probably a waste to even ask, but how do people still solidly believe that base Goku/Vegeta is stronger than (Buu-era) SS3 Gotenks?
Mileage is always going to vary there, but for my part, I still don't buy it. Fights such as Goku vs. pre-trained Gohan, Buu vs. an enhanced Basil, 18 vs. weighted Tupper, Vegeta vs. Hop, Roshi vs. Ganos, and Frieza vs. Dyspo lead me to believe that the retcon hypothesis remains the most plausible interpretation to have of the series' power-scaling even now. I've explained my outlook in more detail here, and I've discussed it at length in other posts as well. Put simply, Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is plainly an outlier in my view.

Unsurprisingly, the most direct, indisputable statement regarding base Goku's power comes from the manga, where he's suggested to be above the Kaioshin in strength. At a bare minimum, I think it's safe to assume he's stronger than Shin which is comfortably above his BoG/start-of-Super level but not necessarily dramatically so.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:33 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:32 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: He doesn't need to be that close to SSB in order to fight him for a couple of second(which was really, all it was), or are you going to tell me that SSB Goku is comparable to Jiren because they were able to have an extended exchange of blows?

Hell, I think the stuff I believe is extremely out of whack(namely that Gohan got to a similar level of power as his SS2 form in 88 through his training, which is already an insane boost), but I think my line of thinking at least makes sense with the information and contradictions to information presented to us.
Your reason Makes the least sense. he is physically stronger than dyspo, who is physically stronger than a ssg goku (tho physically weaker than a ssjb level opponent, but can keep up with their power thanks to his speed). Ultimate gohan is at the level of ssb. Theres no denying that. To deny that is to call all the episodes where gohan fought ssb level opponents outliers, which they arent. Glad you are the only one who is downplaying gohan here.
Toppo, who is Blue level, fight both Gohan and No.17 at the same time and he seems more in advantage than them. So, it doesn’t seem like they are Blue level for me.

Toppo is a decent way above 17 and Gohan before GoD form. Toppo is Kaioken level there.

Frieza and 17 only damaged him because of the way he got hit by Frieza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:11 am

namekiansaiyan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote: Your reason Makes the least sense. he is physically stronger than dyspo, who is physically stronger than a ssg goku (tho physically weaker than a ssjb level opponent, but can keep up with their power thanks to his speed). Ultimate gohan is at the level of ssb. Theres no denying that. To deny that is to call all the episodes where gohan fought ssb level opponents outliers, which they arent. Glad you are the only one who is downplaying gohan here.
Toppo, who is Blue level, fight both Gohan and No.17 at the same time and he seems more in advantage than them. So, it doesn’t seem like they are Blue level for me.

Toppo is a decent way above 17 and Gohan before GoD form. Toppo is Kaioken level there.

Frieza and 17 only damaged him because of the way he got hit by Frieza.
How do you figure that Toppo is Kaioken there exactly?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:21 pm

PFM18 wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Toppo, who is Blue level, fight both Gohan and No.17 at the same time and he seems more in advantage than them. So, it doesn’t seem like they are Blue level for me.

Toppo is a decent way above 17 and Gohan before GoD form. Toppo is Kaioken level there.

Frieza and 17 only damaged him because of the way he got hit by Frieza.
How do you figure that Toppo is Kaioken there exactly?
His exhibition fight against Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:30 pm

Everything surrounding the Goku Black arc was complete nonsense when it comes to power scaling

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:35 pm

OLKv3 wrote:Everything surrounding the Goku Black arc was complete nonsense when it comes to power scaling
Some things are but everything? What examples do you have?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 12:57 pm

Bullza wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:Everything surrounding the Goku Black arc was complete nonsense when it comes to power scaling
Some things are but everything? What examples do you have?
Copy Vegeta one shotting SS3 Gotenks ( I count that as a part of the Black arc because it leads right into it at the end)
Base Black being so strong makes sense if we're using RoF Goku, but apparently Goku needs SS2 to keep up? Then he gets so strong he can tank hits from SSB Vegeta. So do we assume the RoF power is retconned or not? Because the previous arc had them needing SS to handle Frost, but we know Frost is weaker than Freeza.
Everything Trunks before his rage powerup
Everything surrounding the final battle with Merged Zamasu
Goku Black and his magical powerups

Manga wise: The whole SS Vegeta> SS Black> Base Black > SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku
The SSG > SSB Vegeta fight with Black was a cool concept, but still doesn't explain how SSG Vegeta was able to outmaneuver Black since he only switched to Blue to attack, not dodge
Completed SSB being so damn powerful that it matches Merged Zamasu, that would mean Fused Zamasu's boost from Black isn't much at all, even though Vegito in the Boo arc was massive despite Vegeta being much weaker than Goku when they fused

It was where I checked out of trying to do BP comparisons and all of that with DBS. Don't get me wrong, I still find the arc, show, and manga enjoyable, but I learned that I can't do any power discussions because that's when it really really went nuts. Thinking of it though, I'm realizing the power scaling went nuts in the Champa arc, because it went against everything we thought was true in RoF power scaling wise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:04 pm

namekiansaiyan wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:Toppo is a decent way above 17 and Gohan before GoD form. Toppo is Kaioken level there.

Frieza and 17 only damaged him because of the way he got hit by Frieza.
How do you figure that Toppo is Kaioken there exactly?
His exhibition fight against Goku.
Fair enough. But we don’t know what would happen if they had continued the fight. In the tournament, Toppo was more or less even with Blue Vegeta. We could say at least, Gohan and No.17 were not at Blue level from the tournament, but there is no telling about the previous arcs.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Mon Apr 09, 2018 1:19 pm

OLKv3 wrote:Copy Vegeta one shotting SS3 Gotenks
That one wasn't a problem for me. Enraged Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta was stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks (well at least in the manga) and after Whis' training Base Vegeta was meant to be strong enough that Goku said he didn't recognise him at first so that was alright to me.
Base Black being so strong makes sense if we're using RoF Goku, but apparently Goku needs SS2 to keep up? Then he gets so strong he can tank hits from SSB Vegeta. So do we assume the RoF power is retconned or not? Because the previous arc had them needing SS to handle Frost, but we know Frost is weaker than Freeza.
Yeah this one is a bit odd. You'd think when Zamasu first took Goku's body and became Black that he would be just as strong as Goku. By the time he was introduced he was supposedly a little stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku so between those two points he somehow got hundreds of times stronger.

Considering he seemed to be getting zenkai boosts you'd think that was the cause but who would have given him the zenkai boosts prior to his introduction?
Everything Trunks before his rage powerup
The manga was fine for this one but the anime would be a bit hard to swallow. If he's about as strong as Goku then would his Base form be able to tank Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks? How would he have possibly got that strong?
Everything surrounding the final battle with Merged Zamasu
The only thing I was confused about there is that Goku could hold his own against him but it seemed like Black was even stronger than him and his power should have multiplied many times over when fusing.
Goku Black and his magical powerups
I think the manga cleared that one up with it being zenkai boosts. Definitely not the same as it was back on Namek but I'll take that explanation anyway.
Manga wise: The whole SS Vegeta> SS Black> Base Black > SS2 Trunks = SS3 Goku
At the time people theorised that the Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta that fought Black had the same power that he had back when snapped against Beerus and surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks which of course surpassed Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

It kinda makes sense but the series never explained that.
Completed SSB being so damn powerful that it matches Merged Zamasu, that would mean Fused Zamasu's boost from Black isn't much at all, even though Vegito in the Boo arc was massive despite Vegeta being much weaker than Goku when they fused
Yeah as mentioned above I thought that was very odd myself. Does it mean Completed Super Saiyan Blue is many fold stronger or the fusion was pitiful. Vegito and Kefla had a massive boost whereas Kibitoshin and maybe Elder Kai didn't seem to, unless it has something to do with one half of it being Kaioshin that limits it compared to the Saiyans.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by OLKv3 » Mon Apr 09, 2018 2:10 pm

Bullza wrote:
OLKv3 wrote:
Completed SSB being so damn powerful that it matches Merged Zamasu, that would mean Fused Zamasu's boost from Black isn't much at all, even though Vegito in the Boo arc was massive despite Vegeta being much weaker than Goku when they fused
Yeah as mentioned above I thought that was very odd myself. Does it mean Completed Super Saiyan Blue is many fold stronger or the fusion was pitiful. Vegito and Kefla had a massive boost whereas Kibitoshin and maybe Elder Kai didn't seem to, unless it has something to do with one half of it being Kaioshin that limits it compared to the Saiyans.
I guess we have to assume Fusions absolutely suck if it doesn't contain 2 Saiyans :lol:

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