Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So um, roughly regular Super Saiyan then.

Possibly. Goku was shown as a Super Saiyan when he was going up against Jimeze. He told Gohan that he would have beaten him easily had he turned Super Saiyan.

Frost was said to stand no chance against Frieza and Frost was....maybe low Super Saiyan level.

Yeah maybe Super Saiyan level, I'd think too much higher would be a bit farfetched.

So Freeza was suppressing himself 50 times in RoF?

I can't see it.

It's not really "suppression" in the sense that I brought up.

It's more like being able to tap into this extra reserve of power without needing to transform his body. Freeza told Frost that there was a way to use the power that the bulked-up state had without needing to actually bulk up; it was presumed that this was the case back when he was first revived and fought base Goku, but maybe it's not now. Maybe Freeza has a "normal" base form, and one with all of his power unleashed without going Golden that he's learned to use without needing to bulk up; basically, the difference between when Freeza initially transformed into his Final Form on Namek and when he went 100% bulked up against Super Saiyan Goku.

It'd certainly explain why he was confident in taking on Goku even as a Super Saiyan, and how Goku didn't think he could beat Freeza with just his base form.

[Bullza]

So Freeza was suppressing himself 50 times in RoF?

I can't see it.

Well neither can I for the most part. It does feel like they should be on the same level which is how it was portrayed when they actually fought. Maybe the manga also implies it if they didn't actually transform that is.

But if he was just Base level then it would mean than Frost would be weaker than that?

Vegeta did send him flying with a punch and did seem like he was going to fight him in Base too.

[ZombieVito]

So Freeza was suppressing himself 50 times in RoF?

I can't see it.

Well neither can I for the most part. It does feel like they should be on the same level which is how it was portrayed when they actually fought. Maybe the manga also implies it if they didn't actually transform that is.

But if he was just Base level then it would mean than Frost would be weaker than that?

Vegeta did send him flying with a punch and did seem like he was going to fight him in Base too.

But he didnt and when they fought Frost held his own and as far as I remember that punch was off guard.

Theres also the fact that Vegeta needed to turn Super Saiyan to beat a weakened Frost in the previous tournament.

And there's also the thing with Freeza going with all that trouble to caught Frost off guard to eliminate him.

I just can't see Freeza being anything more than base level. Him beating Dyspo initially was explained similar to Roshi evading Ganos and Dyspo never used his full speed until the end anyway.

[Bullza]

But he didnt and when they fought Frost held his own and as far as I remember that punch was off guard.

Theres also the fact that Vegeta needed to turn Super Saiyan to beat a weakened Frost in the previous tournament.

And there's also the thing with Freeza going with all that trouble to caught Frost off guard to eliminate him.

I just can't see Freeza being anything more than base level. Him beating Dyspo initially was explained similar to Roshi evading Ganos and Dyspo never used his full speed until the end anyway.

Well Frieza can't be Base level and Frost above Base level because the latter stands no chance against the former.

So either Frieza is Base level and Frost is below that or Frost is above Base level and Frieza is above that.

Frost didn't really even hold his own. Vegeta was starting off in Base but went Super Saiyan immediately for Magetta, they clashed for a couple seconds and then Vegeta swatted him away.

[ankokudaishogun]

by the way... arguing about the use of "A" is meaningless: in the original Japanese there is no such distinction.

Also, unless there is sensible difference in power between GoDs(which nothing suggests), reaching the state of ANY GoD means reaching the state of GoDs in cetegory sense.

[ZombieVito]

But he didnt and when they fought Frost held his own and as far as I remember that punch was off guard.

Theres also the fact that Vegeta needed to turn Super Saiyan to beat a weakened Frost in the previous tournament.

And there's also the thing with Freeza going with all that trouble to caught Frost off guard to eliminate him.

I just can't see Freeza being anything more than base level. Him beating Dyspo initially was explained similar to Roshi evading Ganos and Dyspo never used his full speed until the end anyway.

Well Frieza can't be Base level and Frost above Base level because the latter stands no chance against the former.

So either Frieza is Base level and Frost is below that or Frost is above Base level and Frieza is above that.

Frost didn't really even hold his own. Vegeta was starting off in Base but went Super Saiyan immediately for Magetta, they clashed for a couple seconds and then Vegeta swatted him away.

Frost can't be base level because of the events of the previous tournament.

Either Champa was wrong or he somehow felt Freeza's Gold power.

[Bullza]

Frost can't be base level because of the events of the previous tournament.

Either Champa was wrong or he somehow felt Freeza's Gold power.

He couldn't have felt Frieza's Golden Form, he was surprised when Goku transformed into a Super Saiyan back at the Tournament and said he didn't even know they could transform. The other Gods were surprised when he turned Super Saiyan Blue at the Zen Exhibition as well.

Frost was portrayed as being above Bergamo in the manga. Bergamo being on par with Base Goku in the anime. So it would also lead me to believe that Frieza > Frost > Base Goku.

They did imply Frieza was above Base Goku anyway. It might be a little or it might a lot.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Frost sent Chappil flying off the tournament stage with his kick in the manga while Base Goku couldn't budge him in the anime. Goku needed Super Saiyan to move him. So Frost>Base Saiyans.

Frieza was easily beating someone that he stated Gohan would need Super Saiyan to beat and the latter is equal to Base Goku.
Only real in universe explanation is that his training in Hell made his Final Form much stronger. Because based on his fight with Base Goku during ROF, he wasn't even close to the Super Saiyans at that time.

A possible out of universe explanation would just be that he was powerscaled to Frost whom was above the base Saiyans since the writers didn't think that Final Form Frost>Final Form Frieza would make sense.

So the chain I would have is:

Super Saiyans=Final Form Frieza(TOP)>Final Form Frost>Base Saiyans=Final Form Frieza(ROF)

[Sora Saiyan]

RE: Frost vs Freeza

Even in the RoF arc first form Freeza made SSJ Gohan look like a total weakling, who in turn was much stronger than Piccolo, who managed to hold Frost off in the anime with one arm whilst he was charging his SBC up. In the manga he held him off by trying to avoid him, but in both instances there isn’t much of a difference. Now just imagine Piccolo trying the same thing against first form Freeza, when we saw how somebody much stronger than Piccolo fared. Like I’ve repeated, that’s just first form Freeza, Final form is a monster in comparison. Also in the movie (maybe in the anime too) everybody knew they stood no chance against just first form Freeza, to the stage where they didn’t want to engage in combat with him. Frost on the other hand never had this overwhelming feeling when he faced Piccolo even though he was in his most powerful form unlike Freeza, and yeah I know Frost was weakened, but Vegeta going SSJ against him doesn’t let us know how weak he actually was after the skirmish with Piccolo, but judging by the race he’s a part of I would say his power barely dropped after the Goku fight, I mean we’ve seen Freeza go through hell and back, and his power doesn’t drop much at all, Frost couldn’t have been any lower than 80% against Piccolo, which really seems like to great of a drop when he’s that universes Freeza, though against Piccolo I think the manga states that Frosts power was dropping through wasting stamina, so he should be weaker in the fight with Vegeta, but even so he mainly took physical injuries against Goku, and we know how hardy Freeza is, so that should really extend to Frost.

There’s always the Tagoma mess too. But one thing that becomes clear is that the scaling for BoG and RoF are a little different when Goku has the flame of SSJG inside him, and in RoF when he has some sort of god powered base. The only thing that makes it seem like they still have powerful base is the Gotenks feat, but there’s still too many question marks with other showings.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

RE: Frost vs Freeza

Even in the RoF arc first form Freeza made SSJ Gohan look like a total weakling, who in turn was much stronger than Piccolo, who managed to hold Frost off in the anime with one arm whilst he was charging his SBC up. In the manga he held him off by trying to avoid him, but in both instances there isn’t much of a difference. Now just imagine Piccolo trying the same thing against first form Freeza, when we saw how somebody much stronger than Piccolo fared. Like I’ve repeated, that’s just first form Freeza, Final form is a monster in comparison. Also in the movie (maybe in the anime too) everybody knew they stood no chance against just first form Freeza, to the stage where they didn’t want to engage in combat with him. Frost on the other hand never had this overwhelming feeling when he faced Piccolo even though he was in his most powerful form unlike Freeza, and yeah I know Frost was weakened, but Vegeta going SSJ against him doesn’t let us know how weak he actually was after the skirmish with Piccolo, but judging by the race he’s a part of I would say his power barely dropped after the Goku fight, I mean we’ve seen Freeza go through hell and back, and his power doesn’t drop much at all, Frost couldn’t have been any lower than 80% against Piccolo, which really seems like to great of a drop when he’s that universes Freeza, though against Piccolo I think the manga states that Frosts power was dropping through wasting stamina, so he should be weaker in the fight with Vegeta, but even so he mainly took physical injuries against Goku, and we know how hardy Freeza is, so that should really extend to Frost.

There’s always the Tagoma mess too. But one thing that becomes clear is that the scaling for BoG and RoF are a little different when Goku has the flame of SSJG inside him, and in RoF when he has some sort of god powered base. The only thing that makes it seem like they still have powerful base is the Gotenks feat, but there’s still too many question marks with other showings.

With regards to Piccolo and Frost, I think Piccolo did get stronger after Resurrection of F in the anime; he's shown to be getting the better of base Gohan when the two are training together when Goku goes to recruit fighters for the tournament with Universe 6 and isn't tired at all while Gohan is absolutely panting and sweating.

I think a good compromise could be that Goku and Vegeta are equal to base Frost now after all three have gotten stronger; strong enough to take him on in base form, but not enough to outright win without Super Saiyan. Besides, other fights have already shown that you don't need to be stronger to pressure Goku and Vegeta to transform.

[Marlowe89]

There’s always the Tagoma mess too. But one thing that becomes clear is that the scaling for BoG and RoF are a little different when Goku has the flame of SSJG inside him, and in RoF when he has some sort of god powered base. The only thing that makes it seem like they still have powerful base is the Gotenks feat, but there’s still too many question marks with other showings.

That's the gist of it, yeah. Toriyama most likely wasn't heavily involved in the retellings, so acknowledging Saiyan Beyond God's presence in the RoF arc without it necessarily being available for later arcs is the only way to truly reconcile everything without there being a head-scratching inconsistency somewhere.

What that means for Frieza, I'm not entirely sure. You could rationalize him being closer to Super Saiyan God's range than not; alternatively, you could place him around Super Saiyan tier or above. Neither him nor Frost are as weak as the base Saiyans, either way - that idea really doesn't mesh with everything shown throughout the anime and manga versions of the U6 and US arcs.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Really, the ultimate question lies in how much Toyotaro, Toei, and Toriyama believe that the Saiyans have progressed in non-god forms.

Ironically enough, the god forms are the least infuriating thing to talk about; they're on a separate level when it comes to pure fighting power and skill, plain and simple.

The whole franchise is about constant progression, so we can't say that Goku and Vegeta are weak; that'd go against the whole notion of them training to become stronger overall if they're only ever powering up their god forms, not to mention the countless times we've seen them noting how they're getting stronger, period.

But we're in a muddy area where nobody wants to completely clarify where things stand. One could feasibly make a case for either of the two major camps, but neither is definitive/conclusive, a testament to the creators no longer liking to clearly tell us these smaller details because it gets in the way of clarifying where greater levels of power stand in comparison to one another.

There's also the fact that power levels just don't work the way they used to, at least not entirely. SOMETIMES they do, but those are the exception rather than the norm nowadays, and it's a particularly notable occasion when it does happen like it used to.

[Bullza]

Some interesting points here.

There was the implication in the manga not that long ago that Base Goku was stronger than the Supreme Kai don't forget which would be consistent with him supposedly being above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks at least up through the Universe 6 saga in the anime.

There's a couple dodgy things here and there but I still (want to) think it's still supposed to be that way because it becomes even more confusing otherwise.

When you mix and match the anime and manga then Frost is stronger than the Base Saiyans. I have no problem with that because it explains why Vegeta turned Super Saiyan for him. In the manga he didn't do that badly against Super Saiyan Goku either.

Frieza would have to be higher still and I think the Gohan, Jimeze and Frieza fights show that he is above the Base Saiyans. He was implied to be stronger than Base Goku in the Resurrection F saga too.

How he went from being seemingly even to Base Goku to possibly much stronger when Goku himself would have also grown a lot stronger is the biggest problem for me.

His Final Form shouldn't really have gotten much stronger from the Resurrection F saga to the Universe Survival saga because he has already trained to unlock his latent potential.

[Hugo Boss]

There was the implication in the manga not that long ago that Base Goku was stronger than the Supreme Kai

When?

He was implied to be stronger than Base Goku in the Resurrection F saga too.

If you are talking about the movie or the anime, he is more than even with Freeza. In the final episode they were pushing Jiren on equal terms until they knocked themselves out (when Freeza was paired with Super Saiyan Goku).

[Bullza]

When?

During the Zen Exhibition​. Rumsshi did his Battle Roar and then the Supreme Kai's started fainting and Whis said that it was powerful enough to knock out those at that level.

Base Goku was paralyzed from it briefly but he was never knocked out which means he must be at a higher level. Which of course is how it should be I suppose if it's trying to be consistent with the other two versions.

[Hugo Boss]

When?

During the Zen Exhibition​. Rumsshi did his Battle Roar and then the Supreme Kai's started fainting and Whis said that it was powerful enough to knock out those at that level.

Base Goku was paralyzed from it briefly but he was never knocked out which means he must be at a higher level. Which of course is how it should be I suppose if it's trying to be consistent with the other two versions.

I take that to mean that Goku’s inner strength is closer to the level of Gods of Destruction than to Kaioshins, not that he was stronger than Kaioshins in one specific level. Goku was as affected as the Gods of Destruction were.

[Bullza]

I take that to mean that Goku’s inner strength is closer to the level of Gods of Destruction than to Kaioshins, not that he was stronger than Kaioshins in one specific level. Goku was as affected as the Gods of Destruction were.

Well he might have the inner strength within him but it was still his Base form body that was affected by it and that remained standing.

Whis said that it affected the motor nerves so it wasn't​ some Ki related thing from the sound of it. The Supreme Kai's body wasn't able to take it and Base Goku body did. He was further out than the Gods of Destruction so it may not have been quote as affected either who knows.

[Koitsukai]

So, after Goku defeated Jiren or at least knocked the poker face out of him, and Freeza and 17 stand up to him in 131, how strong do you guys think Jiren was? and how strong did he get after that nakama boost from Toppo?

[supercat]

My power list.

Mastered UI Goku
Jiren
UI Goku (vs Jiren)
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta (after power up against Toppo)
Destroyer Toppo
SSJ2 Kefla > / = Initial UI Goku
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 = Aniraza
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku Kaioken x2 / Base Toppo
Super Speed Mode Dyspo
SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta /Android 17 / Golden Frieza
Ultimate Gohan = Dyspo (strength only) > Hit (no time-skip)
Mastered LSSJ Kale > / = Ritual Form Goku
SSJ3 Goku
SSJ2 Goku
SSJ1 Goku
SSJ Caulifla / SSJ Cabba
Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan
Buutenks
Ultimate Gohan (Buu saga)
SSJ3 Gotenks > / = Super Buu
Mr. Buu

[Hugo Boss]

So, after Goku defeated Jiren or at least knocked the poker face out of him, and Freeza and 17 stand up to him in 131, how strong do you guys think Jiren was? and how strong did he get after that nakama boost from Toppo?

Stronger than No.17 and more or less equal to a tired Golden Freeza. After he got over his issues, he was strong enough to overpower No. 17 and Golden Freeza at the same time.