Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[VegettoEX]

I don't know what's funnier. The chapter leaks or people trying to defend it.

I hope we will get UI Chiaotzu in the next arc and see him dodge attacks from Broly

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[supersaiyangodgogeta]

So it's stated in this chapter by Krillin that Gohan is in fact not stronger than Goku, which I guess needed to be said because people thought he was stronger since he took on Kefla.

Portrayal wise Gohan took on Kefla so Goku could focus on Jiren and Goku & Vegeta are stated to be the best from their universe so it makes sense just fine. All of this reinforces that Golden Frieza could've taken down Kale had he been serious as per his own words.
Kefla was stated to have Kale's strength and Caulifla's skill, so Kefla doesn't really have to be much stronger than Kale. The difference in strength is negligible at best.

MSSB Goku/MSSB Vegeta/Golden Frieza>=Toppo>Gohan>=Super Saiyan Kefla>=Super Saiyan Berserker Kale seems to be the correct chain.

[ekrolo2]

So it's stated in this chapter by Krillin that Gohan is in fact not stronger than Goku, which I guess needed to be said because people thought he was stronger since he took on Kefla.

Portrayal wise Gohan took on Kefla so Goku could focus on Jiren and Goku & Vegeta are stated to be the best from their universe so it makes sense just fine. All of this reinforces that Golden Frieza could've taken down Kale had he been serious as per his own words.
Kefla was stated to have Kale's strength and Caulifla's skill, so Kefla doesn't really have to be much stronger than Kale. The difference in strength is negligible at best.

MSSB Goku/MSSB Vegeta/Golden Frieza>=Toppo>Gohan>=Super Saiyan Kefla>=Super Saiyan Berserker Kale seems to be the correct chain.

Jiren also points out that Kale wrecked her body when Goku tries to copy her powering up style, meaning Caulifla was fusing with damaged goods.

[Bullza]

What I gathered from the chapter is...

1. Gohan, I assume is using his Ultimate form? He says that he doesn't need to use Super Saiyan but he also says that he chooses not to.

2. Piccolo says that Gohan is stronger than he has ever been. So regardless he's stronger than his previous Ultimate form.

3. Gohan and Kefla are equal.

4. If Krillin is saying that Gohan could get stronger than Goku then it means he isn't. Which in turn means Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Kale weren't Super Saiyan Blue level after all.

5. Goku I don't think uses Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken but something similar to it aka the Power Stressed form? Either way at that point briefly he should be above the other Super Saiyan Blue level characters.

6. For all the confusion over Master Roshi, his power level was said to be as low as dirt.

[ZombieVito]

Jiren also points out that Kale wrecked her body when Goku tries to copy her powering up style, meaning Caulifla was fusing with damaged goods.

Shouldn't this have been apparent when they fused? Kefla looks fine with no visible damage.

What I gathered from the chapter is...

1. Gohan, I assume is using his Ultimate form? He says that he doesn't need to use Super Saiyan but he also says that he chooses not to.

2. Piccolo says that Gohan is stronger than he has ever been. So regardless he's stronger than his previous Ultimate form.

3. Gohan and Kefla are equal.

4. If Krillin is saying that Gohan could get stronger than Goku then it means he isn't. Which in turn means Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Kale weren't Super Saiyan Blue level after all.

5. Goku I don't think uses Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken but something similar to it aka the Power Stressed form? Either way at that point briefly he should be above the other Super Saiyan Blue level characters.

6. For all the confusion over Master Roshi, his power level was said to be as low as dirt.

And yet Jiren had trouble hitting him. Not only that, he even had to block one of Roshi's hits.

I'm also laughing my ass off with !NotKaioken Blue Goku.

[RandomGuy96]

What I gathered from the chapter is...

1. Gohan, I assume is using his Ultimate form? He says that he doesn't need to use Super Saiyan but he also says that he chooses not to.

2. Piccolo says that Gohan is stronger than he has ever been. So regardless he's stronger than his previous Ultimate form.

3. Gohan and Kefla are equal.

4. If Krillin is saying that Gohan could get stronger than Goku then it means he isn't. Which in turn means Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Kale weren't Super Saiyan Blue level after all.

5. Goku I don't think uses Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken but something similar to it aka the Power Stressed form? Either way at that point briefly he should be above the other Super Saiyan Blue level characters.

6. For all the confusion over Master Roshi, his power level was said to be as low as dirt.

On 5, I think he's basically just applying the same principle where a character temporarily exceeds their normal power output by concentrating their energy into a beam, except doing it with his fists instead. They say that it's like Kaio-Ken while deliberately never calling it Kaio-Ken. Apparently it's not practical since he only throws two punches before wrecking his body and Jiren calls him dumb for it. Either it's "HIS OWN ORIGINAL CHARACTER, BLAIO-KEN" or Toyotaro is insulting the idea of using it, I dunno.

Jiren can tank punches to the face and gut from the amplified CSSB Goku without flinching, surprising no one.

Roshi can dodge a few punches from Jiren with that pseudo UI thing he has, but it's made pretty clear that Jiren just struck Roshi at the appropriate power to knock him out and simply miscalculated how hard he was to hit for his power level. Then he adjusted appropriately and knocked him out with a light chop. Kahseral also says that Roshi is weak as dirt, despite himself being unable to overcome base Goku with a 4-1 team up in previous chapters.

Still not sure how Kefla it supposed to be. As you said she's implied to be weaker than CSSB Goku but I'm not sure about her being weaker than Golden Freeza. Mostly because I'm reluctant to take Freeza's boasts as in any way reliable. She was at least a lot stronger than Z Ultimate Gohan and Dypso, so I guess we'll see how strong that is next chapter.

[TheUltimateNinja]

This is the dumbest shit I've seen in my life. Toyo took the just holding back, bro meme to another level.

[Bullza]

Completely off track remark.

Remember in the Battle of Gods saga when they first tried to turn Goku into a Super Saiyan God and they all gave him their energy? When Gohan said it was the strongest he'd ever been?

Would he get to keep that power permanently? Or is a temporary boost?

Likewise when Vegeta snapped and surpassed Goku after Bulma was slapped. Was his power permanently increased at that point or would it go back to normal after he calmed down?

[BlueBasilisk]

Completely off track remark.

Remember in the Battle of Gods saga when they first tried to turn Goku into a Super Saiyan God and they all gave him their energy? When Gohan said it was the strongest he'd ever been?

Would he get to keep that power permanently? Or is a temporary boost?

Likewise when Vegeta snapped and surpassed Goku after Bulma was slapped. Was his power permanently increased at that point or would it go back to normal after he calmed down?

In the manga Vegeta seems to have kept it since he beats up SS Black. In the anime he never uses SS2 again after that fight and he get his power boosted from training with Whis so it's really unclear.

[Desassina]

As far as I know, SSJB is complete with the level of energy that they possess, but they can only increase it when it's out. However, doing so damages their body, as well as letting it go. Goku used the one instance where it was out to further increase his power since he wanted to break his limits.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

4. If Krillin is saying that Gohan could get stronger than Goku then it means he isn't. Which in turn means Super Saiyan Kefla and Super Saiyan Kale weren't Super Saiyan Blue level after all.

Vados said Kefla's power was unmatched on the last chapter though. I'd take Vados' statement over Kuririn's here since he should 't be able to sense SSJB Goku.

[Bullza]

Vados said Kefla's power was unmatched on the last chapter though. I'd take Vados' statement over Kuririn's here since he should 't be able to sense SSJB Goku.

He shouldn't but it wouldn't really be any surprise at all for Super Saiyan Blue, Perfected even, to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. That's what we all would have figured anyway.

Golden Frieza said he could handle Super Saiyan Kale. That was before she powered up further but nothing specifically implies that wouldn't still apply afterward.

Vados also made it seem as though Super Saiyan Kefla was no stronger than Super Saiyan Kale and that she was just in control now.

So I suppose Super Saiyan Blue Goku could have beaten Super Saiyan Kale if he wanted to.

[LightBing]

Completely off track remark.

Remember in the Battle of Gods saga when they first tried to turn Goku into a Super Saiyan God and they all gave him their energy? When Gohan said it was the strongest he'd ever been?

Would he get to keep that power permanently? Or is a temporary boost?

Likewise when Vegeta snapped and surpassed Goku after Bulma was slapped. Was his power permanently increased at that point or would it go back to normal after he calmed down?

That Goku boost seems akin to when Piccolo received Kuririn's and Gohan's energy back in Namek. The concept is also present in a bunch of movies, most notably in the first Broly movie. It should be a temporary boost until said energy runs out.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm so confused about how strong Kefla and Gohan are in relation to the other top tier fighters in the manga. I'm just so lost. It reminds me a lot of Ribrianne in the anime. Where the staff just didn't know how powerful they really wanted to make her in the end, so they just went with the old "as strong as the plot demands" route and left it at that.

[Bullza]

That Goku boost seems akin to when Piccolo received Kuririn's and Gohan's energy back in Namek. The concept is also present in a bunch of movies, most notably in the first Broly movie. It should be a temporary boost until said energy runs out.

In which case I'll ask you this, seeing as they already said that Vegeta had surpassed Goku after Bulma was slapped then what do you think it meant when Goku arrived on Beerus' Planet and said that Vegeta was probably stronger than him now?

Would he have not already have been stronger than him before? Goku had become a Super Saiyan God at this point but he obviously couldn't be referring to that.

I'm so confused about how strong Kefla and Gohan are in relation to the other top tier fighters in the manga

Stronger than Ultimate Gohan from the Buu Saga. Presumably weaker than Perfected Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta. Considering that Toppo, Hit and likely Golden Frieza are comparable to those two then weaker than them as well.

Maybe more comparable to Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black?

[ekrolo2]

I'm so confused about how strong Kefla and Gohan are in relation to the other top tier fighters in the manga. I'm just so lost. It reminds me a lot of Ribrianne in the anime. Where the staff just didn't know how powerful they really wanted to make her in the end, so they just went with the old "as strong as the plot demands" route and left it at that.

They say she's as strong as Kale, just with more common sense. Freeza says he can beat her if he got serious but then again, it's Freeza.

[LightBing]

In which case I'll ask you this, seeing as they already said that Vegeta had surpassed Goku after Bulma was slapped then what do you think it meant when Goku arrived on Beerus' Planet and said that Vegeta was probably stronger than him now?

Would he have not already have been stronger than him before? Goku had become a Super Saiyan God at this point but he obviously couldn't be referring to that.

That's between BoG and FnF right? Then I think it's taking into account SSJG and Vegeta's should be at that point arriving at SSJB level. Going from memory here those episodes were a long time ago.

[Lord Beerus]

I'm so confused about how strong Kefla and Gohan are in relation to the other top tier fighters in the manga. I'm just so lost. It reminds me a lot of Ribrianne in the anime. Where the staff just didn't know how powerful they really wanted to make her in the end, so they just went with the old "as strong as the plot demands" route and left it at that.

They say she's as strong as Kale, just with more common sense. Freeza says he can beat her if he got serious but then again, it's Freeza.

But that's not how Potara works. Potara is literally two battle powers multiplied by each other. Are you telling me that Caulifla is so weak compared to Kale that she contributed nothing, or barely anything to the Potara fusion? And if that's the case, wouldn't the supposed huge gap in power support the notion that Berserker Kale is far more powerful than people want to give her credit for? I mean, Berserker Kale crushed Freeza in a 1 v 1 fight and that was before her power grew even larger.

I also don't buy Freeza's statement that he could beat Kale if he was fighting seriously. If that was the case, he wouldn't have interfered when Kale was fighting SSJB Goku and broke his guard. Freeza knows Kale is potentially just as strong SSJB Goku, but just didn't want to admit he got by Kale. Most likely because she's a Saiyan. And Freeza's hates Saiyans.

[ekrolo2]

I'm so confused about how strong Kefla and Gohan are in relation to the other top tier fighters in the manga. I'm just so lost. It reminds me a lot of Ribrianne in the anime. Where the staff just didn't know how powerful they really wanted to make her in the end, so they just went with the old "as strong as the plot demands" route and left it at that.

They say she's as strong as Kale, just with more common sense. Freeza says he can beat her if he got serious but then again, it's Freeza.

But that's not how Potara works. Potara is literally two battle powers multiplied by each other. Are you telling me that Caulifla is so weak compared to Kale that she contributed nothing, or barely anything to the Potara fusion? And if that's the case, wouldn't the supposed huge gap in power support the notion that Berserker Kale is far more powerful than people want to give her credit for? I mean, Berserker Kale crushed Freeza in a 1 v 1 fight and that was before her power grew even larger.

I also don't buy Freeza's statement that he could beat Kale if he was fighting seriously. If that was the case, he wouldn't have interfered when Kale was fighting SSJB Goku and broke his guard. Freeza knows Kale is potentially just as strong SSJB Goku, but just didn't want to admit he got by Kale. Most likely because she's a Saiyan. And Freeza's hates Saiyans.

Caulifla is way weaker than Kale. In fact, Kale might have the strongest Base form out of any Saiyan except Broly since her punches in that hurt more than SS Caulifla's did. They also mention in this chapter and the last one that Kale's power was ruining her body and you can tell from her performance, Caulifla essentially fused with damaged goods.

It's not elegant of an explanation at all but in comparison to other manga & anime instances it's not as egregious imo.

[Lord Beerus]

They say she's as strong as Kale, just with more common sense. Freeza says he can beat her if he got serious but then again, it's Freeza.

But that's not how Potara works. Potara is literally two battle powers multiplied by each other. Are you telling me that Caulifla is so weak compared to Kale that she contributed nothing, or barely anything to the Potara fusion? And if that's the case, wouldn't the supposed huge gap in power support the notion that Berserker Kale is far more powerful than people want to give her credit for? I mean, Berserker Kale crushed Freeza in a 1 v 1 fight and that was before her power grew even larger.

I also don't buy Freeza's statement that he could beat Kale if he was fighting seriously. If that was the case, he wouldn't have interfered when Kale was fighting SSJB Goku and broke his guard. Freeza knows Kale is potentially just as strong SSJB Goku, but just didn't want to admit he got by Kale. Most likely because she's a Saiyan. And Freeza's hates Saiyans.

Caulifla is way weaker than Kale. In fact, Kale might have the strongest Base form out of any Saiyan except Broly since her punches in that hurt more than SS Caulifla's did. They also mention in this chapter and the last one that Kale's power was ruining her body and you can tell from her performance, Caulifla essentially fused with damaged goods.

It's not elegant of an explanation at all but in comparison to other manga & anime instances it's not as egregious imo.

But Vados mentions in Chapter 38 that Kefla has the sheer power of Kale with the sense of battle of Caulifla. Surely that must mean Kefla has access of all of Kale's strength, without having to worry about burnout?

I mean, Vegeta was way weaker than Goku when they fused to fight Super Boo who had Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in him, yet when Goku and Vegeta fuse to become Vegeta, and Vegetto turns into a Super Saiyan, Vegetto crushes Super Boo. That couldn't have happened if Vegetto didn't have all of Goku and Vegeta's respective power. And that was despite the fact that Goku had SSJ3, which was extremely taxing form