Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

The definition of Goku's growth was not given. Even if it was just an inch he is still stronger than before. Goku breaking his arms or not still does not take away from the fact that he was using full power.

Statement that says he used his "full power" when doing the Kamehameha in E72?

Regardless, the fact he broke his arms doing the Kamehameha should be enough evidence to say that attack was indeed stronger. Hell, I would even say it was the strongest Kamehameha he has ever done amplification wise.

Incorrect. A character breaking their arms does not determine attack strength. That's like saying Goku's Kamehameha against merged Zamas is stronger than the Kamehameha UI Goku used against Kefla or Jiren cause he didn't break his arms. That's not how DB works.

Goku used full power against Hit because he was at exhaustion.

Christ...

I said amplification not power. Of course those Kamehameha's are stronger since they are being fired by a stronger Goku but the amplification should be way smaller because he didnt hurt himself doing them.

[ruler9871]

So what are people's thoughts on Moro? He gave Super Saiyan God Vegeta trouble. Was losing against Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta or what that meant to be Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta? But then he powered up further still.

Nothing yet to suggest he's on the level of Jiren or Broly.

Any ideas? Did I miss anybody?

Kale?

Moro appears to be a real threat, which is refreshing for the manga because with the exception of Jiren, every manga antagonist in the manga version came across as glorified fodder.

As for the list, if it was for the manga version then Kale would be in the top 10 strongest no question. But the anime version, she's only top 30 at best.

[Miracles]

Statement that says he used his "full power" when doing the Kamehameha in E72?

Regardless, the fact he broke his arms doing the Kamehameha should be enough evidence to say that attack was indeed stronger. Hell, I would even say it was the strongest Kamehameha he has ever done amplification wise.

Incorrect. A character breaking their arms does not determine attack strength. That's like saying Goku's Kamehameha against merged Zamas is stronger than the Kamehameha UI Goku used against Kefla or Jiren cause he didn't break his arms. That's not how DB works.

Goku used full power against Hit because he was at exhaustion.

Christ...

I said amplification not power. Of course those Kamehameha's are stronger since they are being fired by a stronger Goku but the amplification should be way smaller because he didnt hurt himself doing them.

That too is another fallacy. A stronger Goku would mean a stronger amplification. You are trying to slice this in many different ways so it could fit.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Incorrect. A character breaking their arms does not determine attack strength. That's like saying Goku's Kamehameha against merged Zamas is stronger than the Kamehameha UI Goku used against Kefla or Jiren cause he didn't break his arms. That's not how DB works.

Goku used full power against Hit because he was at exhaustion.

Christ...

I said amplification not power. Of course those Kamehameha's are stronger since they are being fired by a stronger Goku but the amplification should be way smaller because he didnt hurt himself doing them.

That too is another fallacy. A stronger Goku would mean a stronger amplification. You are trying to slice this in many different ways so it could fit.

I think he meant "proportionally speaking", as in the actual numerical multiplication would be smaller since a stronger Goku isn't showing the same kind of effort or strain as before.

Think of it like this. You have a basket of 10 apples and a basket of 15 apples. The former gets multiplied by a factor of 5 for 50, while the latter gets multiplied by a factor of 4 for 60. Whilst the latter is bigger, the former has a greater multiplication factor. Same kinda case with Goku. Whilst his Kamehameha might be technically stronger against Hit than what he used against Merged Zamasu, it's very obviously not as great of an amplification because he's not straining himself to put out this kind of power.

[Miracles]

Christ...

I said amplification not power. Of course those Kamehameha's are stronger since they are being fired by a stronger Goku but the amplification should be way smaller because he didnt hurt himself doing them.

That too is another fallacy. A stronger Goku would mean a stronger amplification. You are trying to slice this in many different ways so it could fit.

I think he meant "proportionally speaking", as in the actual numerical multiplication would be smaller since a stronger Goku isn't showing the same kind of effort or strain as before.

Think of it like this. You have a basket of 10 apples and a basket of 15 apples. The former gets multiplied by a factor of 5 for 50, while the latter gets multiplied by a factor of 4 for 60. Whilst the latter is bigger, the former has a greater multiplication factor. Same kinda case with Goku. Whilst his Kamehameha might be technically stronger against Hit than what he used against Merged Zamasu, it's very obviously not as great of an amplification because he's not straining himself to put out this kind of power.

I get that. However it was nothing more than Goku's "full power" being released. The strain doesn't change this fact.

[Bullza]

I reached the point of Goku's first fight with Gohan. The one that really pushed a lot of people onto this "retconned" or "two base" theory more but I suppose at least since then we know the latter isn't true.

Still I was wondering if anyone had any explanations for it.

Gohan himself said he wasn't much of a fighter anymore. I know some people had been saying how he'd grown stronger since training with Piccolo but I think outside of the U6 Saga he didn't train with him since.

Goku though is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks so the fight didn't make too much sense. Gohan did say Goku was holding back but afterward they went Super Saiyan and they were still pretty even.

So either Goku was holding back severely while sparring with his son or his power was retconned to beginning of Super levels. I think you could argue both but this was the same Goku who sparred with Buu just fine and then exerted effort as Super Saiyan Blue against Krillin so I think you could say he was just holding back against Gohan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

That too is another fallacy. A stronger Goku would mean a stronger amplification. You are trying to slice this in many different ways so it could fit.

I think he meant "proportionally speaking", as in the actual numerical multiplication would be smaller since a stronger Goku isn't showing the same kind of effort or strain as before.

Think of it like this. You have a basket of 10 apples and a basket of 15 apples. The former gets multiplied by a factor of 5 for 50, while the latter gets multiplied by a factor of 4 for 60. Whilst the latter is bigger, the former has a greater multiplication factor. Same kinda case with Goku. Whilst his Kamehameha might be technically stronger against Hit than what he used against Merged Zamasu, it's very obviously not as great of an amplification because he's not straining himself to put out this kind of power.

I get that. However it was nothing more than Goku's "full power" being released. The strain doesn't change this fact.

It does, because to use such a massive amount of amplified power, a Kamehameha user's body suffers for it; that level of power in a single attack far outstrips the user's "normal" fighting battle power. With SSB Goku's desperate struggle with Merged Zamasu, he broke his arms, and with Roshi's stand against Ganos, he drained his life force immensely.

Similar to the Final Flash, Kienzien, and Shin Kikoho, the kind of power being used can hit above a user's ordinary level of strength.

[ZombieVito]

I reached the point of Goku's first fight with Gohan. The one that really pushed a lot of people onto this "retconned" or "two base" theory more but I suppose at least since then we know the latter isn't true.

Still I was wondering if anyone had any explanations for it.

Gohan himself said he wasn't much of a fighter anymore. I know some people had been saying how he'd grown stronger since training with Piccolo but I think outside of the U6 Saga he didn't train with him since.

Goku though is supposed to be stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks so the fight didn't make too much sense. Gohan did say Goku was holding back but afterward they went Super Saiyan and they were still pretty even.

So either Goku was holding back severely while sparring with his son or his power was retconned to beginning of Super levels. I think you could argue both but this was the same Goku who sparred with Buu just fine and then exerted effort as Super Saiyan Blue against Krillin so I think you could say he was just holding back against Gohan.

Gohan trained with Piccolo in E67.

Well, it's assumed he did since he was fatigued.

[Hugo Boss]

either Goku was holding back severely while sparring with his son or his power was retconned to beginning of Super levels. I think you could argue both but this was the same Goku who sparred with Buu just fine and then exerted effort as Super Saiyan Blue against Krillin so I think you could say he was just holding back against Gohan.

Putting my two cents on it.

That fight with Gohan was a sparring, but that should tell us at least that Goku was fighting with someone with similar ability. Holding back in that case was hiding Super Saiyan and when they both used it they were pretty much even. If Goku was supposed to be much stronger than Gohan in those forms, the scene wouldn’t work.

The problem: it contradicts the notion that Goku has significantly powered-up after training with the gods and fighting guys from other universes, while Gohan, days after, notably still struggled to regain his strength from Boo Arc. So, personally, I prefer to follow what the story has consistently told until that moment and ignore that little detail.

Against Krillin, it’s implied Goku was interested in seeing how mindset and skill would compensate power difference and with SSBlue he probably realized that Krillin alone couldn’t keep up, and learned that adding team work could even things out. This scene is a bit harder to defend because the episode itself already established that Krillin’s power was on par with the Saiyans’ regular form. So, going for the kamehameha against SSBlue wasn’t a “smart” choice. Not to mention it has the same problem I commented about Goku’s sparring with Gohan, when you confront it with Goku’s battle history up until then. Ironically, Goku’s sparring with Boo makes much more sense.

[Bullza]

[Gohan trained with Piccolo in E67. Well, it's assumed he did since he was fatigued.

Well that could just be because he rushed over. He was just wearing his ordinary house clothes after all.

The problem: it contradicts the notion that Goku has significantly powered-up after training with the gods and fighting guys from other universes, while Gohan, days after, notably still struggled to regain his strength from Boo Arc. So, personally, I prefer to follow what the story has consistently told until that moment and ignore that little detail.

Exactly. I'd have said at least up until him reobtaining his Ultimate form, Gohan was no stronger than he was during the Great Saiyaman/World Tournament Sagas. Likely weaker during the Resurrection F Saga and then the same after training with Piccolo.

Goku was meant to be on a whole other level even during the Resurrection F Saga so the fight shouldn't have gone like that so I think that might be inconsistent.

[RecolorSaiyan]

[Gohan trained with Piccolo in E67. Well, it's assumed he did since he was fatigued.

Well that could just be because he rushed over. He was just wearing his ordinary house clothes after all.

The problem: it contradicts the notion that Goku has significantly powered-up after training with the gods and fighting guys from other universes, while Gohan, days after, notably still struggled to regain his strength from Boo Arc. So, personally, I prefer to follow what the story has consistently told until that moment and ignore that little detail.

Exactly. I'd have said at least up until him reobtaining his Ultimate form, Gohan was no stronger than he was during the Great Saiyaman/World Tournament Sagas. Likely weaker during the Resurrection F Saga and then the same after training with Piccolo.

Goku was meant to be on a whole other level even during the Resurrection F Saga so the fight shouldn't have gone like that so I think that might be inconsistent.

When Gohan started his training with piccolo in episode 88, Piccolo iirc said he was "soft and out of shape" and "needed to be whipped back into shape"
In the same episode, in a flashback goku told piccolo "gohan should have done better based on his old power" and piccolo explictly told gohan to "tap into that power you used against Boo" - I've seen people argue he meant the ultimate state but he used that vs beerus so most likely piccolo was talking about that level of power he used vs boo since he was weaker against beerus

ssj2 Gohan at start of 88 was definitely <boo saga ultimate gohan.

Goku vs gohan is a lot easier to swallow if there was a base power retcon

[Miracles]

I think he meant "proportionally speaking", as in the actual numerical multiplication would be smaller since a stronger Goku isn't showing the same kind of effort or strain as before.

Think of it like this. You have a basket of 10 apples and a basket of 15 apples. The former gets multiplied by a factor of 5 for 50, while the latter gets multiplied by a factor of 4 for 60. Whilst the latter is bigger, the former has a greater multiplication factor. Same kinda case with Goku. Whilst his Kamehameha might be technically stronger against Hit than what he used against Merged Zamasu, it's very obviously not as great of an amplification because he's not straining himself to put out this kind of power.

I get that. However it was nothing more than Goku's "full power" being released. The strain doesn't change this fact.

It does, because to use such a massive amount of amplified power, a Kamehameha user's body suffers for it; that level of power in a single attack far outstrips the user's "normal" fighting battle power. With SSB Goku's desperate struggle with Merged Zamasu, he broke his arms, and with Roshi's stand against Ganos, he drained his life force immensely.

Similar to the Final Flash, Kienzien, and Shin Kikoho, the kind of power being used can hit above a user's ordinary level of strength.

All those final attacks concentrate the users full power. Naturally they would be worn out and exhausted after using them. Goku breaking his arms does not mean that Kamehameha amplified is stronger than a more powerful Goku later. It's not how DB story works.

[ZombieVito]

All those final attacks concentrate the users full power. Naturally they would be worn out and exhausted after using them. Goku breaking his arms does not mean that Kamehameha amplified is stronger than a more powerful Goku later. It's not how DB story works.

You really don't get what we mean by amplification do you?

That example PerphapsTheOtherOne said was spot on. The Kamehameha made his arms unusable so it has the bigger amp by default.

[Gohan trained with Piccolo in E67. Well, it's assumed he did since he was fatigued.

Well that could just be because he rushed over. He was just wearing his ordinary house clothes after all.

The problem: it contradicts the notion that Goku has significantly powered-up after training with the gods and fighting guys from other universes, while Gohan, days after, notably still struggled to regain his strength from Boo Arc. So, personally, I prefer to follow what the story has consistently told until that moment and ignore that little detail.

Exactly. I'd have said at least up until him reobtaining his Ultimate form, Gohan was no stronger than he was during the Great Saiyaman/World Tournament Sagas. Likely weaker during the Resurrection F Saga and then the same after training with Piccolo.

Goku was meant to be on a whole other level even during the Resurrection F Saga so the fight shouldn't have gone like that so I think that might be inconsistent.

I really can't buy Gohan getting fatigued by flying.

So you guys think that Ultimate Gohan in E88 = Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc? That sure is interesting.

I guess I could buy Gohan pulling a Goku and outmatch Lavender in base by pure skill. Lavender could be on par with his SS form I guess?

[Bullza]

I really can't buy Gohan getting fatigued by flying.

Well neither could I but then I also can't see him doing intense training with Piccolo in loafers either.

So you guys think that Ultimate Gohan in E88 = Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc? That sure is interesting.

I guess I could buy Gohan pulling a Goku and outmatch Lavender in base by pure skill. Lavender could be on par with his SS form I guess?

I'd probably say that it was just the same Ultimate Gohan yeah. They mentioned the original power and showed him when he fought Buu. I think if it intended to be a stronger version then there's be no reason for Piccolo to mention that he could even further. So I'd say he got that same power back and then improved it.

I also don't think he used that Ultimate form against Beerus either so it was the first time he'd done it since Buu.

The Trio De Danger are very awkward to figure out. Krillin didn't seem to be doing too badly against Basil in that mock battle. Enough so that I'd figure Lavender could be on the level of Base Gohan because Krillin didn't do to badly against him either.

Base Gohan was outmatching Lavender but then he matched him as a Super Saiyan. So was Lavender just caught by surprise or was Gohan weakening...but that'd be a bit quick.

[HeroR]

I really can't buy Gohan getting fatigued by flying.

Well neither could I but then I also can't see him doing intense training with Piccolo in loafers either.

So you guys think that Ultimate Gohan in E88 = Ultimate Gohan in the Boo arc? That sure is interesting.

I guess I could buy Gohan pulling a Goku and outmatch Lavender in base by pure skill. Lavender could be on par with his SS form I guess?

I'd probably say that it was just the same Ultimate Gohan yeah. They mentioned the original power and showed him when he fought Buu. I think if it intended to be a stronger version then there's be no reason for Piccolo to mention that he could even further. So I'd say he got that same power back and then improved it.

I also don't think he used that Ultimate form against Beerus either so it was the first time he'd done it since Buu.

The Trio De Danger are very awkward to figure out. Krillin didn't seem to be doing too badly against Basil in that mock battle. Enough so that I'd figure Lavender could be on the level of Base Gohan because Krillin didn't do to badly against him either.

Base Gohan was outmatching Lavender but then he matched him as a Super Saiyan. So was Lavender just caught by surprise or was Gohan weakening...but that'd be a bit quick.

He was using Ultimate against Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie and the retelling did almost no changes to the power scale outside of Gotenks not going Super Saiyan. It was also not noted that Gohan was weaker. That didn't happened until Resurrection 'F', which was about a year later. Remember, Gohan has to tell the others he couldn't go Ultimate anymore, which makes no sense if he couldn't do it in Battle of Gods when Beerus was smacking everyone around.

[Bullza]

He was using Ultimate against Beerus in the Battle of Gods movie and the retelling did almost no changes to the power scale outside of Gotenks not going Super Saiyan. It was also not noted that Gohan was weaker. That didn't happened until Resurrection 'F', which was about a year later. Remember, Gohan has to tell the others he couldn't go Ultimate anymore, which makes no sense if he couldn't do it in Battle of Gods when Beerus was smacking everyone around

Well it was Ultimate in the movie but I think that originally wasn't meant to be Ultimate and they had to recolour it at the last moment.

Obviously that movie came out before they said in the next movie he'd been slacking off on his training. So I would guess for the retelling they didn't have Gohan use his Ultimate form so it flowed better going into the next saga because it didn't make much sense that 4 years after Buu he could still use his Ultimate form but 5 years later and now he only thinks he can still turn Super Saiyan.

He didnt have the Ultimate form appearance either which they have clearly established as having the bang nor was it referred to when he was trying to get back.

So I do think that was something they changed.

[Miracles]

All those final attacks concentrate the users full power. Naturally they would be worn out and exhausted after using them. Goku breaking his arms does not mean that Kamehameha amplified is stronger than a more powerful Goku later. It's not how DB story works.

You really don't get what we mean by amplification do you?

That example PerphapsTheOtherOne said was spot on. The Kamehameha made his arms unusable so it has the bigger amp by default.

I understand both of you clearly. Just trying to make you two grasp that your arm breaking amp stance is meaninglessness . Past amplified attacks are not more powerful than future stronger attacks. Regardless of the type of strain they put on the body. This was the subject of the discussion to begin with. However, you two go off on a tangent about the severity of self inflicted amped up attacks as if that somehow makes the past attack stronger than future ones. It is a complete contradiction to Dragonball story progression therefore nothing but headcanon.

[Amir]

All those final attacks concentrate the users full power. Naturally they would be worn out and exhausted after using them. Goku breaking his arms does not mean that Kamehameha amplified is stronger than a more powerful Goku later. It's not how DB story works.

You really don't get what we mean by amplification do you?

That example PerphapsTheOtherOne said was spot on. The Kamehameha made his arms unusable so it has the bigger amp by default.

I understand both of you clearly. Just trying to make you two grasp that your arm breaking amp stance is meaninglessness . Past amplified attacks are not more powerful than future stronger attacks. Regardless of the type of strain they put on the body. This was the subject of the discussion to begin with. However, you two go off on a tangent about the severity of self inflicted amped up attacks as if that somehow makes the past attack stronger than future ones. It is a complete contradiction to Dragonball story progression therefore nothing but headcanon.

They never said past amplified attacks are stronger than future stronger attacks...

[Miracles]

You really don't get what we mean by amplification do you?

That example PerphapsTheOtherOne said was spot on. The Kamehameha made his arms unusable so it has the bigger amp by default.

I understand both of you clearly. Just trying to make you two grasp that your arm breaking amp stance is meaninglessness . Past amplified attacks are not more powerful than future stronger attacks. Regardless of the type of strain they put on the body. This was the subject of the discussion to begin with. However, you two go off on a tangent about the severity of self inflicted amped up attacks as if that somehow makes the past attack stronger than future ones. It is a complete contradiction to Dragonball story progression therefore nothing but headcanon.

They never said past amplified attacks are stronger than future stronger attacks...

...

The definition of Goku's growth was not given. Even if it was just an inch he is still stronger than before. Goku breaking his arms or not still does not take away from the fact that he was using full power.

Statement that says he used his "full power" when doing the Kamehameha in E72?

Regardless, the fact he broke his arms doing the Kamehameha should be enough evidence to say that attack was indeed stronger. Hell, I would even say it was the strongest Kamehameha he has ever done amplification wise.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I understand both of you clearly. Just trying to make you two grasp that your arm breaking amp stance is meaninglessness . Past amplified attacks are not more powerful than future stronger attacks. Regardless of the type of strain they put on the body. This was the subject of the discussion to begin with. However, you two go off on a tangent about the severity of self inflicted amped up attacks as if that somehow makes the past attack stronger than future ones. It is a complete contradiction to Dragonball story progression therefore nothing but headcanon.

They never said past amplified attacks are stronger than future stronger attacks...

...

The definition of Goku's growth was not given. Even if it was just an inch he is still stronger than before. Goku breaking his arms or not still does not take away from the fact that he was using full power.

Statement that says he used his "full power" when doing the Kamehameha in E72?

Regardless, the fact he broke his arms doing the Kamehameha should be enough evidence to say that attack was indeed stronger. Hell, I would even say it was the strongest Kamehameha he has ever done amplification wise.

Hey, I personally didn't catch onto that original thing; I only saw the amplification argument. Also, he states in the very next sentence that it was the strongest amplification-wise. Also also, there's no way to quantify exactly how much stronger SSB Goku got since the defeat of Zamasu; if it's not by a wide margin, then Goku's fully amped Kamehameha, possibly the most effort he's ever put into one and thus putting out as much power as possible without killing himself, could "potentially" be the strongest one he's ever done.

So basically, what I think ZombieVito meant was that, compared to his own personal fighting power, the Full-Power Kamehameha that Goku used against Merged Zamasu was the strongest he ever pushed the attack's potential; there's no denying that argument. However, I do believe you can make the argument that it could potentially be the strongest version of the attack he's ever used thus far. We can properly argue about that one.