Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[RandomGuy96]

So it seems that "Vegeta struggles with Topp, unlocks a new Blue power-up, beats him, and then jobs to Jiren" was in the outline. Interesting.

It probably was, but it seems that only the anime decided to make a brand new transformation out of it.

I'm wondering how broad the outline is. Like, for example, I think that Toriyama's outline for the Hit fight may have said something like "Goku fights Hit with power ten times greater than Vegeta's", and Toei had that be via Goku literally multiplying his power with a new pseudo-form (SSBKK) while the manga had it be via SSB being a flawed form that can't be switched on and off easily like Vegeta tried to do (so Vegeta was just weaker than he normally was). Ditto with Toppo; Toriyama might have written "Toppo is powerful enough to be a God of Destruction candidate, and can turn on their signature energy, and a full-power SSB struggles with him"; Toei chose to represent that as Toppo transforming into a ten-foot tall black and purple "God of Destruction" form, while the manga just had him being that strong regularly.

[Zamasu55]

We can definitely say that, in the manga, 17 is Ssj3 tier, nothing more.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I feel like Toriyama's drafts just say stuff like:

"17 has gotten much stronger since they last fought"

"Gohan has power comparable to Goku"

"Kale surprises blue goku with her power but she is no real threat to him"

Then Toyotaro and Toei interpret that however.

Hence anime 17 being ssg-ssb tier while in the manga he's ss3+

Gohan was pushed up to high ssg-fpssb tier in anime/manga

Kale in the manga was no threat to top tiers cause her form was basically kaioken on steroids + predictability, in the anime her full max power was slightly below ssg goku

[Bullza]

When Dyspo said he worn out from tangling with that kid earlier was he referring to Android 17?

So Android 17 > Dyspo?

[SayianBeyondGod]

I have something I have to get off my chest. In episode 125 we see Toppo being unaffected or pushed by 17's rapid ki blast, yet in episode 127 Jiren was being pushed back by it. Does this mean, GoD Toppo is more stronger than Jiren in episode 127 or what?

[RecolorSaiyan]

When Dyspo said he worn out from tangling with that kid earlier was he referring to Android 17?

So Android 17 > Dyspo?

17 >= Dyspo but 17 never gets tired while Dyspo does. The best feat manga dyspo had was easily handling ssj2 goku, 17's best is putting the fear of god in ssj3 goku so yeah probably more or less the same if not 17 with a slight edge

[RecolorSaiyan]

I have something I have to get off my chest. In episode 125 we see Toppo being unaffected or pushed by 17's rapid ki blast, yet in episode 127 Jiren was being pushed back by it. Does this mean, GoD Toppo is more stronger than Jiren in episode 127 or what?

Toppo was coated in hakai energy which destroyed 17's blast, and episode 127 was "17's episode" if you will so i think you just gotta accept some inconsistencies.
However episode 127 jiren powered up to a level where he completely trashed SSBE Vegeta, SSB KKX20 goku, G Freeza and 17 at the same time, he was way above GOD Toppo

[SayianBeyondGod]

I have something I have to get off my chest. In episode 125 we see Toppo being unaffected or pushed by 17's rapid ki blast, yet in episode 127 Jiren was being pushed back by it. Does this mean, GoD Toppo is more stronger than Jiren in episode 127 or what?

Toppo was coated in hakai energy which destroyed 17's blast, and episode 127 was "17's episode" if you will so i think you just gotta accept some inconsistencies.
However episode 127 jiren powered up to a level where he completely trashed SSBE Vegeta, SSB KKX20 goku, G Freeza and 17 at the same time, he was way above GOD Toppo

That still wouldn't mean ki blasts would be completely nulified, as if the ki blasts were strong enough they could've pushed him back like Jiren. It wouldn't make sense for a weaker opponent to be unfazed by ki blast but yet have a stronger one be pushed. Supposely inconsistencies such as trading blows or taking blows could be explained as Jiren holding back, or the fact the weaker opponents can now surivie blows from stronger opponents as evident to Base Goku taking Jiren ki powered punches and claiming they were the hardest attack he had felt.

As for the latter argument, I don't see that as a reason to say 127 Jiren is stronger than God Toppo as Toppo trashed Golden Freeza and 17 as well. SSBE Vegeta was fatguied during that fight acrooding to Jiren as he doubted his victory base off his wounds. Considering GoD Toppo was overwhelming SSBE Vegeta earlier in the fight even when holding back(as belmod told him to fire more powerful hakai blast later on), the same would've been done with SSBKK Goku if not worse.

[Nevaeh]

Jiren says that Vegeta fought harder than Goku in his Ascended state from a moment ago.

So that has to be the "Kaio-ken" Blue right? Couldn't be Ultra Instinct because he hasn't fought him yet.

I'd assume so. All Goku did in omen was dodge his punch

[ricky84]

Why do so many fans think the manga nerfing characters (except Roshi) somehow makes it better? It doesn't add anything to the fights at all nor does it make the characters better written. Ironically, despite Toyotaro nerfing all the characters compared to the anime, the fights in the manga tend to actually be less clever & strategic than their anime counterparts (Goku vs Hit being the biggest example).

[dragon boss z]

We can definitely say that, in the manga, 17 is Ssj3 tier, nothing more.

Ya, all he really did was fight Dyspo off screen (Dyspo's best feat was fighting ssj2 Goku I believe), and beat some fodder.

DBS Manga Tier list
Jiren+ tier: FP Jiren
Jiren tier: UI Sign Goku = Jiren
MSSB+ tier: Blue Vegeta(evolution)>FP Hit(time lag)>Blue Goku(power stressed)
MSSB tier: Blue Goku/Vegeta = Toppo = Hit > FP Kale* = Kefla = Gohan
MSSB- tier: MSSB Goku(non-serious) = SS Kale > Golden Frieza(non serious)

This is mine right now

full power Jiren
GoD, Jiren, UI omen Goku
SSBE Vegeta, powered up MSSB Goku
MSSB Goku/Vegeta, Hit, Golden Frieza, Toppo, ssj Kefla, Gohan (Kefla and Gohan could be above or below this tier as well, it's hard to tell)
Dyspo, 17, ssj3 Goku, ssj Kale (due to regulation problems)
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta, Anilaza?
ssj Caulifla/Cabba, final form Frieza, Magetta
base Goku/Vegeta, Frost
Piccolo, 18, base Caulifla/Cabba, holding back Gohan, Roshi with knock off UI
trio de danger, magical girls, pride troopers
Krillin, Tien

[ssj3kakarot]

Jiren says that Vegeta fought harder than Goku in his Ascended state from a moment ago.

So that has to be the "Kaio-ken" Blue right? Couldn't be Ultra Instinct because he hasn't fought him yet.

I'd assume so. All Goku did in omen was dodge his punch

Jiren says " You've fought back harder than any, besides son Goku in his ascended state a moment ago".

Either way, it doesn't make sense. Goku clearly didn't do better vs Jiren when he was maxed out. And as Omen, all he did was dodge, as was state earlier.

Maybe Jiren is going crazy?

[dragon boss z]

When Dyspo said he worn out from tangling with that kid earlier was he referring to Android 17?
So Android 17 > Dyspo?

I would say they are about the same with 17 having the edge.

Why do so many fans think the manga nerfing characters (except Roshi) somehow makes it better? It doesn't add anything to the fights at all nor does it make the characters better written. Ironically, despite Toyotaro nerfing all the characters compared to the anime, the fights in the manga tend to actually be less clever & strategic than their anime counterparts (Goku vs Hit being the biggest example).

It depends what you mean by nerf. I think the powerscaling should be nerfed, but not the feats. Like Dyspo and Toppo not being able to jump back to the stage from that distance was ridiculous. Ssj Vegeta not being able to lift 1,000 tons was also dumb. However I think the whole (he is x times stronger than him) shouldn't be abused. Characters don't need to be hypothetically millions of times stronger than the previous ones, what they need is to prove they are actually stronger with on panel feats.

[prince212]

Jiren says that Vegeta fought harder than Goku in his Ascended state from a moment ago.

So that has to be the "Kaio-ken" Blue right? Couldn't be Ultra Instinct because he hasn't fought him yet.

I'd assume so. All Goku did in omen was dodge his punch

Jiren says " You've fought back harder than any, besides son Goku in his ascended state a moment ago".

Either way, it doesn't make sense. Goku clearly didn't do better vs Jiren when he was maxed out. And as Omen, all he did was dodge, as was state earlier.

Maybe Jiren is going crazy?

I don’t think he’s going crazy ... I think he’s got perception, same as goku and vegeta knew that jiren was the big fish even before watching him fighting, in the introduction of the tournament. But yeap something is weird if he’s talking about fighting back , when goku never fought him back ... just he perceived goku ultra instinct as the bigger enemy in that particular moment when he dodge what was supposed to be a final blow

[Bullza]

Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.

I don’t think it said he went full power , I think that’s a fan assumption.

Gohan in the manga is slightly below CSSB Goku

[RandomGuy96]

Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.

Stronger than CSSB. Vados said Kefla was possibly the strongest fighter there after sensing/seeing Vegeta and Toppo go at each other full force. He's obviously below both UIS Goku and Not-SSBE Vegeta though.

Here's a question: were Vegeta and Goku confirmed to be the same strength in the same form back in the Zamasu arc? As I recall, Goku's been slacking off for a year while Vegeta has been training (possibly with the ROSAT), yet by the ToP arc they're equals.

Part of me thinks Jiren was stronger than Beerus from the beginning. CSSB Vegeta being able to land a hit on Beerus (before getting decked, but still) seems like an indication that they're approaching his level. Yet Goku and Vegeta, even after amplifying their powers considerably, could not remotely affect Jiren.

[Nevaeh]

Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.

Hard to say. He's delt with CSSB level fighters a lot easier than Beerus has that's for sure tho

[Bergamo]

Would you say Jiren up to this point has been above Beerus? Or has he surpassed Beerus with this Full Power form that he seems to have at the end of the chapter?

This Ultra Instinct Goku probably isn't stronger than Beerus right?

On a side note where you would you place Ultimate Gohan in comparison to Goku? Weaker than Super Saiyan God? Stronger than that but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue? He isn't supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan Blue from what I recall.

Stronger than CSSB. Vados said Kefla was possibly the strongest fighter there after sensing/seeing Vegeta and Toppo go at each other full force. He's obviously below both UIS Goku and Not-SSBE Vegeta though.

Here's a question: were Vegeta and Goku confirmed to be the same strength in the same form back in the Zamasu arc? As I recall, Goku's been slacking off for a year while Vegeta has been training (possibly with the ROSAT), yet by the ToP arc they're equals.

Gohan is said to be weaker than Goku, and he's equal to Kefla, therefore Kefla is weaker than Goku. Vados hyped up Kefla before she fought any big hitters.

[Bullza]

Yeah I recall Krillin saying something that implied Gohan was not as strong as Goku but could be.