Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[1345521]

Can someone clarify something about the manga's timeline for me?

Beerus says in chapter 27 that it's been a few years (3-5 in common usage) since he last fought Vegeta. That fight presumably being their brief clash in BoG, assuming no other fight took place off-screen in the interim. The timeline from is fairly compressed from Beerus to Zamasu by the dragon ball usage and explicit 4 months statement in ROF as well as Pan not growing (though that could be handwaved as Saiyan biology). So is the implication here that it's at least a couple year time skip (up from the minimum few months imposed by Bulma's pregnancy) between Zamasu and the ToP? If so, wouldn't that imply that training their base forms doesn't do anything for Goku/Vegeta anymore, since Vegeta is equal to Goku in the same form both before and after the time skip despite Goku explicitly slacking off and Vegeta not?

In the manga, bog only takes place about a few montsh to a year after BUU.

Impossible due to Pan's age.

estimating to the time the black arc started, it was about 10 years after buu, which is conistent to what trunks said in chapter 15.

What did Trunks say?

Well it's impossible for it to be 7 years due to bulma saying she hasn't seen goku in 5 years, now is it?

Read chapter 15, trunks says it has been ten years since they last fought.

3 years + 7 years of buu.

[Bullza]

According to the Timeline.

778 - Is when Beerus came to Earth and he fought Vegeta.

779 - Is when Trunks showed back up, he tells Goku it had been over 10 years since "then", the Cell Games or when he last saw them. Seeing as he returned to his time in 785 and went back in 796 then that fits. Additionally because he went back 17 years in time 796-779 is 17 so that fits too.

780 - Bra is born. Around the same time Beerus fights Vegeta again. So it's more like a couple years than a few years.

[PFM18]

Ok guys, let's try to reach a consensus on the powerscaling regarding these four characters.

Hakaishin Toppo
SSBE Vegeta
2nd UIO Goku
SS2 Kefla

What's your chain regarding them and why.

First, I think we need to separate SSBE Vegeta that he had initially and the power he had finally after receiving the boost he achieved against Toppo.

Well there's two trains of thoughts that are relevant here. I'm really not entirely sure which one I fall into yet, so I'll discuss things as they stand in both. Either:

1. Goku/Vegeta's "limit breaking" power was limited to their respective new transformations and they had only marginal gains otherwise.
2. Goku/Vegeta broke their limits in their baseline level of power in addition to the new transformations in such a way that they just got way stronger and consequently their Base/SSB forms became dramatically stronger during this time.

If we go by the first train of thought, then I believe things look like this in terms of strictly power(strongest to weakest):

SSJ2 Kefla
2nd UIO Goku
SSBE Vegeta(final)
Hakaishin Toppo
SSBE Vegeta(initial)

Kefla in her SSJ form, was able to knock out SSBKKx20 Goku and was stated to rival the spirit bomb. She was comfortably above SSBKKx20 in SSJ(and by extension above initial SSBE Vegeta) and she doubled her power upon going SSJ2 and was stated to be able to kill 2nd UI Omen Goku had any of her ki blasts actually landed. Goku was stronger than his first Omen, which was considerably stronger than SSBKKx20 so that would automatically make him above

Hakaishin Toppo is ambiguously above inital SSBE Vegeta/SSBKKx20 Goku, and then he was defeated after Vegeta unlocked more power and surpassed him. But we don't necessarily know how much stronger these two characters are from the proverbial threshold of SSBKKx20 Goku/SSBE, we just know the Vegeta that was even with Goku was squashed by Toppo. We do know that SSJ->SSJ2 constitutes a 2x power boost, in addition to already being above the Spirit Bomb and SSBKKx20. So naturally it appears that she is stronger than Toppo/Vegeta and the 2nd UI Omen was relative to her in power so naturally is also above the pair that fought in 126.

If we go by the 2nd train of thought, things change. The idea is that being Saiyans and improving as they fight, and breaking their limits etc etc, resulted in sustaining dramatic power boosts throughout the tournament. It is possible considering the two Saiyans performance in 122, 123 and beyond being similar if not better against a stronger Jiren, that they had surpassed the 1st UI Omen in their normal SSB forms.(Jiren was also stronger than SSJ2 Kefla because Vegeta said he had the highest ki obviously.) Then upon using their respective enhanced SSB forms, they have went far beyond what had been previously. Toppo being able to compete and initially have the advantage against this improved Vegeta, shows he also is on another level. In this case things look like this:

SSBE Vegeta(final)
Hakaishin Toppo
SSBE Vegeta(initial)
SSJ2 Kefla
2nd UI Omen Goku

IMO.

[wolflonnie]

UIO Goku isn't that strong, regarding prowess. That's the point. He can evade pretty much anything, but he can't strike directly very effectively.

[CTAkuma]

UIO Goku isn't that strong, regarding prowess. That's the point. He can evade pretty much anything, but he can't strike directly very effectively.

Nope. UI sign is atleast 2x stronger than SSB KKx20 and it showed when Goku was doing better against Jiren with Sign than Blue KKx20

[RecolorSaiyan]

Spoiler:

Full UI goku ends the chapter beating up FP Jiren

[Bullza]

I picked up my rewatch of Dragon Ball Super today, just seen the episode where Goku fights Trunks.

So the way I see it, SSJ2 Trunks is able to push back SSJ2 Goku, Goku transforms into a SSJ3, Trunks says he'll raise his Ki to the Max, he attacks and then he loses.

I'd say that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is meant to be more powerful than SSJ2 Goku. Which is how it is in the manga though obviously in that version he was closer to SSJ3 Goku. Which would mean that Trunks would be stronger than Cabba and Base Trunks would be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Do other people see that as being the case as well?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

UIO Goku isn't that strong, regarding prowess. That's the point. He can evade pretty much anything, but he can't strike directly very effectively.

Nope. UI sign is atleast 2x stronger than SSB KKx20 and it showed when Goku was doing better against Jiren with Sign than Blue KKx20

I wouldn't be too sure.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku almost always lends plenty of solid blows, but they lack weight and strength; Whis notes that Goku can't fully utilize Ultra Instinct while attacking in the Omen state.

To me, at least, Goku's strength is similar to his base state but has greater speed and reflexive ability, allowing him to land solid blows that can pierce the massive Ki of his opponent; it's just that the blows themselves don't have enough heaviness behind them to do lasting damage, only managing to briefly knock opponents around.

[CTAkuma]

UIO Goku isn't that strong, regarding prowess. That's the point. He can evade pretty much anything, but he can't strike directly very effectively.

Nope. UI sign is atleast 2x stronger than SSB KKx20 and it showed when Goku was doing better against Jiren with Sign than Blue KKx20

I wouldn't be too sure.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku almost always lends plenty of solid blows, but they lack weight and strength; Whis notes that Goku can't fully utilize Ultra Instinct while attacking in the Omen state.

To me, at least, Goku's strength is similar to his base state but has greater speed and reflexive ability, allowing him to land solid blows that can pierce the massive Ki of his opponent; it's just that the blows themselves don't have enough heaviness behind them to do lasting damage, only managing to briefly knock opponents around.

Saying that his strength in Sign is similar to Base is flat out wrong. He clearly landed blows and managed to hit Jiren off Guard in Sign while SSB KKx20 did almost nothing damage wise.

[PFM18]

I picked up my rewatch of Dragon Ball Super today, just seen the episode where Goku fights Trunks.

So the way I see it, SSJ2 Trunks is able to push back SSJ2 Goku, Goku transforms into a SSJ3, Trunks says he'll raise his Ki to the Max, he attacks and then he loses.

I'd say that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is meant to be more powerful than SSJ2 Goku. Which is how it is in the manga though obviously in that version he was closer to SSJ3 Goku. Which would mean that Trunks would be stronger than Cabba and Base Trunks would be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Do other people see that as being the case as well?

Yeah Trunks in Base being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks should be obvious considering he is on par with Zamasu arc Goku/Vegeta who dwarf SSJ3 Gotenks in their Base.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Nope. UI sign is atleast 2x stronger than SSB KKx20 and it showed when Goku was doing better against Jiren with Sign than Blue KKx20

I wouldn't be too sure.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku almost always lends plenty of solid blows, but they lack weight and strength; Whis notes that Goku can't fully utilize Ultra Instinct while attacking in the Omen state.

To me, at least, Goku's strength is similar to his base state but has greater speed and reflexive ability, allowing him to land solid blows that can pierce the massive Ki of his opponent; it's just that the blows themselves don't have enough heaviness behind them to do lasting damage, only managing to briefly knock opponents around.

Saying that his strength in Sign is similar to Base is flat out wrong. He clearly landed blows and managed to hit Jiren off Guard in Sign while SSB KKx20 did almost nothing damage wise.

I think this is the key point.

It was only in the Ultra Instinct Omen state that Goku actually landed blows that Jiren wasn't able to see coming. We see something similar when Vegeta fights Jiren later on the Tournament of Power; his actual strength wasn't the deciding factor, but rather his ability to see through Jiren's movements and strike when Jiren couldn't guard or brace. I believe that something similar happens with Goku when he lands hits while in Ultra Instinct Omen; his hits have no strength, but they can strike past their defenses and thus still knock them around.

This is my personal interpretation, as is yours; you'll try and say I'm wrong, I'll say you're wrong, etc.

[CTAkuma]

It was only in the Ultra Instinct Omen state that Goku actually landed blows that Jiren wasn't able to see coming. We see something similar when Vegeta fights Jiren later on the Tournament of Power; his actual strength wasn't the deciding factor, but rather his ability to see through Jiren's movements and strike when Jiren couldn't guard or brace. I believe that something similar happens with Goku when he lands hits while in Ultra Instinct Omen; his hits have no strength, but they can strike past their defenses and thus still knock them around.

This is my personal interpretation, as is yours; you'll try and say I'm wrong, I'll say you're wrong, etc.

You forgot the part where Goku in Sign was able to keep up and damage Jiren albeit minor, when SSBx20 didn't do anything. Saying that only the "dodge ability" made him keep up with Jiren is also quite nonsensical because that would imply that SSBKx20 could damage Jiren which he clearly couldn't.

UI sign is a powerboost too, there would be no point in using it if it didn't offer a powerboost greater than SSBKx20 and was infact weaker than that form.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

It was only in the Ultra Instinct Omen state that Goku actually landed blows that Jiren wasn't able to see coming. We see something similar when Vegeta fights Jiren later on the Tournament of Power; his actual strength wasn't the deciding factor, but rather his ability to see through Jiren's movements and strike when Jiren couldn't guard or brace. I believe that something similar happens with Goku when he lands hits while in Ultra Instinct Omen; his hits have no strength, but they can strike past their defenses and thus still knock them around.

This is my personal interpretation, as is yours; you'll try and say I'm wrong, I'll say you're wrong, etc.

You forgot the part where Goku in Sign was able to keep up and damage Jiren albeit minor, when SSBx20 didn't do anything. Saying that only the "dodge ability" made him keep up with Jiren is also quite nonsensical because that would imply that SSBKx20 could damage Jiren which he clearly couldn't.

UI sign is a powerboost too, there would be no point in using it if it didn't offer a powerboost greater than SSBKx20 and was infact weaker than that form.

Missed the whole "landing solid blows to get past defenses" bit, I see.

I can't say I didn't see it coming; most people prefer a strict progression of pure power, since it makes the most sense to them.

Either we agree to disagree on how the whole situation works, or we'll be stuck here for a good few more pages.

[wolflonnie]

I agree on the idea. In martial arts, striking for certain specific key points allows you to deal significant damages, regardless of how robust an opponent may be. A pretty infamous example may be the solar plexus.
Now what appeared to me is that Goku was extremely fast and reactive in UIO, but couldn't use the whole deal of his power. Whis said so. Still, by being that reactive, he was able to deal a significant damage to Jiren, with a well-timed punch.
The full UI, that I think it's a full blown power boost.

That, or while UIO increases Goku's agility and power to some levels, his natural defenses aren't that high. Would make sense as you have to deplete your stamina first to get UIO and full UI. Which means that, if Kefla managed to hit Goku, she would've seriously injured him.

Me, I think Kefla in SSJ2 is around Goku SSBKKx10/20 and just that. No need to overestimate her power too much.
Scaling is:

- Goku full UI
- LB Jiren
- Jiren
- Goku UIO
- Goku SSBKKx20 / SSBE Vegeta
- GoD Toppo
- SSJ2 Kefla / Goku SSBKKx10 / Goku UIO (power wise)
- SSJ Kefla / Goku SSB or Goku SSBKKxY number

[PFM18]

UIO Goku isn't that strong, regarding prowess. That's the point. He can evade pretty much anything, but he can't strike directly very effectively.

Nope. UI sign is atleast 2x stronger than SSB KKx20 and it showed when Goku was doing better against Jiren with Sign than Blue KKx20

how could you possibly know this constitutes "at least 2x" when it is left completely arbitrary how much stronger he got?

[ZombieVito]

I picked up my rewatch of Dragon Ball Super today, just seen the episode where Goku fights Trunks.

So the way I see it, SSJ2 Trunks is able to push back SSJ2 Goku, Goku transforms into a SSJ3, Trunks says he'll raise his Ki to the Max, he attacks and then he loses.

I'd say that Super Saiyan 2 Trunks is meant to be more powerful than SSJ2 Goku. Which is how it is in the manga though obviously in that version he was closer to SSJ3 Goku. Which would mean that Trunks would be stronger than Cabba and Base Trunks would be stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.

Do other people see that as being the case as well?

Yes. Trunks is way more powerful than Goku on equal forms.

It's not until later in the arc that Goku surpasses him by anger power ups.

[CTAkuma]

how could you possibly know this constitutes "at least 2x" when it is left completely arbitrary how much stronger he got?

Because that's speculating UI signs power, if it was barely an increase/none at all then obviously he wouldn't have done that well. 2x is a reasonable lowball on top of SSB KKx20 seeing as how he faired against Jiren and the novelty of the form itself

[PFM18]

how could you possibly know this constitutes "at least 2x" when it is left completely arbitrary how much stronger he got?

Because that's speculating UI signs power, if it was barely an increase/none at all then obviously he wouldn't have done that well. 2x is a reasonable lowball on top of SSB KKx20 seeing as how he faired against Jiren and the novelty of the form itself

2x certainly is possible and it wouldn't necessarily outright contradict anything, but to say 2x is a lowball is unfounded. First you made it sound like it was somehow a definitive fact that it was at least 2x too, I thought either you knew something I didn't or you're confused but it seems it is the latter. within the context of this series, a 2x boost is an ENORMOUS boost, as in SSJ2 Gohan was a 2x boost and on Namek getting a 10-30% power difference meant domination in your favor. Calling 2x a lowball just causes irrational bloat for no reason.

[CTAkuma]

2x certainly is possible and it wouldn't necessarily outright contradict anything, but to say 2x is a lowball is unfounded. First you made it sound like it was somehow a definitive fact that it was at least 2x too, I thought either you knew something I didn't or you're confused but it seems it is the latter. within the context of this series, a 2x boost is an ENORMOUS boost, as in SSJ2 Gohan was a 2x boost and on Namek getting a 10-30% power difference meant domination in your favor. Calling 2x a lowball just causes irrational bloat for no reason.

Never did i imply it was a fact. Also SSB KKx20 Goku getting dominated by Kefla and then being able to keep up with her in UI sign is another point of evidence. 2x is a lowball in the context of the fights and judging how well he did against his opponents in other forms.

Also in the context of transformations 2x is a reasonable lowball again judging by past multipliers SS=50x, SS2=2x, SS3=4x etc. UI sign being a worse multiplier than SS2 or regular Kaioken doesn't make sense

[HeroR]

We know Signs is stronger than Blue Kaioken because it was outright stated in 110 that Goku was stronger by Piccolo, 17, and Zeno. On top of that, Tien actually said that Goku absorbing the Spirit Bomb wouldn’t have bridge the power gap between him and Jiren, and Whis agreed. Meaning Goku taking in a Spirit Bomb meant to defeat Jiren who smashed Blue Kaioken x20 wouldn’t have performed as well as Signs.