Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:47 pm

Bullza wrote:Well we already know that Base Goku is far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
No, we do not. This is outrageous, there's no way for Goku to surpass that level in so little time, this is no GT.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Apr 24, 2018 7:59 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Bullza wrote:Well we already know that Base Goku is far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
No, we do not. This is outrageous, there's no way for Goku to surpass that level in so little time, this is no GT.
SSG absorption + Whis's training + 3 more years in the Room of Spirit & Time?

I think it's more than fair, especially given that Goku's set to take on Uub, the reincarnation of Pure Buu, and only start to get serious in his base form in 3 years time following the end of DBS.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:22 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:I take that as to mean Vegeta is stronger overall, not that he was stronger than some specific form he used before. And I don’t take seriously the other instances of Goku fighting Beerus, because Beerus was handicapped to an extent we don’t know.
He was handicapped but the Beerus that fought Vegeta took him after he poked him in the head. Costume or not, he was punching Goku in the face and he was still awake. There was also the scene when they were changing his bed sheets and they took a few attacks there when he was supposed to be unrestrained because he was asleep.
jeffbr92 wrote:No, we do not. This is outrageous, there's no way for Goku to surpass that level in so little time, this is no GT.
Gotenks wailed away at Copy Vegeta and couldn't so much as make him budge. Base Goku was as strong as Copy Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:28 pm

Bullza wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I take that as to mean Vegeta is stronger overall, not that he was stronger than some specific form he used before. And I don’t take seriously the other instances of Goku fighting Beerus, because Beerus was handicapped to an extent we don’t know.
He was handicapped but the Beerus that fought Vegeta took him after he poked him in the head. Costume or not, he was punching Goku in the face and he was still awake. There was also the scene when they were changing his bed sheets and they took a few attacks there when he was supposed to be unrestrained because he was asleep.
jeffbr92 wrote:No, we do not. This is outrageous, there's no way for Goku to surpass that level in so little time, this is no GT.
Gotenks wailed away at Copy Vegeta and couldn't so much as make him budge. Base Goku was as strong as Copy Vegeta.
Again, outliers guys. Just because something happened, doesn't mean they intended have an effect on the perception of the strength of the characters in the overall narrative, especially since its something that has been constantly contradicted through the performance of characters like Kuririn, Basil and Piccolo to name a few.

Just because Batman can hurt the freaking spectre with a kick, doesn't mean his some cosmic level entity. In the same vein, just because Kuririn can fight base Goku, or Copy Vegeta can beat Gotenks, doesn't mean that Kuririn is more powerful than Gotenks.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Apr 24, 2018 8:53 pm

I don't think it's an outlier as that would require it being a one off.

Vegeta effortlessly blew away Tagoma who tanked Piccolo's attack.

Goku fought on par with Final Form Frieza when the others knew they couldn't beat First Frieza...not sure if it was in the series but the movie implied that Base Goku was stronger than Buu.

The Monaka-Beerus fight and then withstanding the hits they did when they were asleep.

Base Future Trunks being implied to be above Super Saiyan Kid Trunks.

Base Goku keeping up with a faster version of Good Buu.

It actually made sense at the time that Goku was far above Gotenks. That's how it should have been going by the information we'd been told up till that point.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 9:39 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I think it's more than fair, especially given that Goku's set to take on Uub, the reincarnation of Pure Buu, and only start to get serious in his base form in 3 years time following the end of DBS.
No and makes even less sense you're using Oob as example. We all know that SSJ3 Gotenks could wreck Kid Boo anytime, even considering Oob already had that power, if EoZ Base Goku is already stronger than Gotenks then Oob is nothing more than a joke to him.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:05 pm

JazzMazz wrote: Also, nothing he really said in his video was wrong.
Oh really? That is very laughable as he states transformations in Dragon Ball are not any sort of multipliers or Kaioken being arbritary. I mean if Gokou says "Kaioken x 2" , he more than likely gets twice as powerful.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Apr 24, 2018 10:13 pm

Bullza wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I take that as to mean Vegeta is stronger overall, not that he was stronger than some specific form he used before. And I don’t take seriously the other instances of Goku fighting Beerus, because Beerus was handicapped to an extent we don’t know.
He was handicapped but the Beerus that fought Vegeta took him after he poked him in the head. Costume or not, he was punching Goku in the face and he was still awake. There was also the scene when they were changing his bed sheets and they took a few attacks there when he was supposed to be unrestrained because he was asleep.
I’m not sure if that counts. Fingerflicks are how Beerus likes to finish his fights once he demonstrates superiority. It’s very difficult to say when he is using more power on his fingers or on his fists/legs. Also, Vegeta had just used a supercharged galick gun and probably cooled down to his normal self. And both scenes that Beerus hits Goku were played as gags as well, so it’s equally very difficult to have a clear assessment about the character’s strength at those moments.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:27 am

Rally 07 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Also, nothing he really said in his video was wrong.
Oh really? That is very laughable as he states transformations in Dragon Ball are not any sort of multipliers or Kaioken being arbritary. I mean if Gokou says "Kaioken x 2" , he more than likely gets twice as powerful.
Again, missing the forest for the trees is exactly the phrase that applies to your understanding and representation of Pinwheels arguments.

He wasn't transformations aren't multipliers, he was saying the number the transformations are a multiplier of(with the slight exception of Kaio-Ken), are almost entirely arbitrary. The number for the multiplier of each transformation is almost completely irrelevant to how the story is told. The purpose of each transformation, is basically to visually communicate how another character can surpass another character they were fighting evenly with or even losing to in a stylish fashion to the audience. It also communicates the basic vague idea of how strong said character is.

That's his entire god damn point. I'm beginning to question if you even watched the video that your trying to critique.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Mister_Popo » Wed Apr 25, 2018 7:35 am

Goku’s base form appeared to be very strong at the end of ROF fighting True form Freeza. He clearly stated ‘transformation wasn’t yet needed to fight him’. Goku seemed to have lost the powers he had temporarily gained by fighting Beerus during BOG. The enhanced baseform must have been (mainly) due to his training with Whis. Before even feeling God-Ki he and Vegeta had become very strong. Later on in the show after ROF this unusual strong baseform didn’t seem to reappear anymore. For instance: he still had to go SSJ to fight Frost during U6. Different explainations or retcons are possible. I want to explore some and ask what explaination for the events you seem to prefer or have, and how you apply this for instance when making power levels. This seems essential to figure out a coherent powerscale for Super (if possible), as everything that follows later on is based on Goku’s baseform-power level:
A number of potential explanations:

1. From U6 arc onwards Goku just kept the strong baseform. He stacked the other forms just on top of that.

There were suggestions base Goku’s powers actually surpassed SSJG by that time. Theoretically that’s possible, but that kinda makes all future opponents in Super ridiculously strong. Base Caulifla for instance, does that make her stronger than True form Freeza, who was in the SSJG- and Dyspo-range during TOP?

Goku would rather not have surpassed SSJG in baseform. He could have been a tod stronger than SSJ3, enabling him to fight Freeza without transforming. Without a retcon this would still basically make a lot of opponents extremely strong, though not as strong as SSJ3 base Vegetto or SSJG Goku from BOG. By going Super Saiyan during U6 arc against Frost, that still makes Frost in his final form a lot stronger than True Form Freeza. Piccolo who pretty much confronted Frost later on the Tournament, must have made astronomic gains in comparison to ROF. One could consider: different universe, diferent rules, diffferent power levels. That could explain why Frost is that powerfull and why Goku did use so much power against him, but this cannot explain the gains for instance Piccolo made in comparison to the (base and SSJ) Saiyans that appeared to have become a lot stronger since DBZ and BOG.

2. Goku has two baseforms. The one he uses during ROF is stronger than SSJ3. But he is only able to stack the SSJG- and SSJB-multiplier on top of that.

That could be a valable explaination at first. But why didn’t we see this strong baseform later on in the show? He did regain his ability to transform to his casual forms without God-Ki. That would suggest he had regained his normal baseform from U6-arc onwards. What could be the explaination: was it only a temporary effect of Whis training during ROF, and why did he only keep the Red en Blue-forms later on?

3. There is no explaination in the continuity of the story itself. The enhanced baseform was retconned later on and probably replaced by SSJG (which was retconned too as it was no longer as strong as during BOG). During TOP, when SSJG reappeared, enhanced baseform did seem to be comparable to his form (matching Dyspo for instance, who was matching True form Freeza, a form of Freeza that enhanced baseform could match).

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:50 am

I still think there's just one Base form that is far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

The only real problem with it is that it mean many other characters would be too. Base Cabba was stronger than Base Vegeta so he would have to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Bergamo would have to be even though his brothers would be around as strong as Cell. Base Gohan would have to be even though it was implied he'd slacked off and wasn't up to par. Caulifla would be and so on.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 2:11 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Bullza wrote:Well we already know that Base Goku is far stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks.
No, we do not. This is outrageous, there's no way for Goku to surpass that level in so little time, this is no GT.
Ummmm? Except he fought evenly with Copy Vegeta who took several shots from Gotenks and didn't even budge(aka could tank all of his attacks) and then he one shots him. And Goku has gotten considerably stronger than then in Base now. He also fought Beerus and Buu in Base to moderate effect.(Beerus wasn't going all out and was handicapped but still) Goku absorbed the SSG power and trained to become several times stronger so I mean at this point he should be atleast approaching SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu saga.(hypothetical SSJ3 that is)
JazzMazz wrote:
Bullza wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:I take that as to mean Vegeta is stronger overall, not that he was stronger than some specific form he used before. And I don’t take seriously the other instances of Goku fighting Beerus, because Beerus was handicapped to an extent we don’t know.
He was handicapped but the Beerus that fought Vegeta took him after he poked him in the head. Costume or not, he was punching Goku in the face and he was still awake. There was also the scene when they were changing his bed sheets and they took a few attacks there when he was supposed to be unrestrained because he was asleep.
jeffbr92 wrote:No, we do not. This is outrageous, there's no way for Goku to surpass that level in so little time, this is no GT.
Gotenks wailed away at Copy Vegeta and couldn't so much as make him budge. Base Goku was as strong as Copy Vegeta.
Again, outliers guys. Just because something happened, doesn't mean they intended have an effect on the perception of the strength of the characters in the overall narrative, especially since its something that has been constantly contradicted through the performance of characters like Kuririn, Basil and Piccolo to name a few.

Just because Batman can hurt the freaking spectre with a kick, doesn't mean his some cosmic level entity. In the same vein, just because Kuririn can fight base Goku, or Copy Vegeta can beat Gotenks, doesn't mean that Kuririn is more powerful than Gotenks.
these are not outliers this is consistent with what has been told to us throughout the story. It would be inconsistent if Goku COULDN'T beat SSJ3 Gotenks in Base., with all the information that was given to us.

None of the examples you gave actually serve to contradict anything. Goku has been consistently above everything in the Buu saga in his base form.
Bullza wrote:I still think there's just one Base form that is far stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

The only real problem with it is that it mean many other characters would be too. Base Cabba was stronger than Base Vegeta so he would have to be above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Bergamo would have to be even though his brothers would be around as strong as Cell. Base Gohan would have to be even though it was implied he'd slacked off and wasn't up to par. Caulifla would be and so on.
None of the things you mentioned are actually a problem. Base Cabba was even with Vegeta during U6 so that also makes him stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. But what is wrong with that? Caulifla is even with the Base Saiyans in the ToP so she is also, Base Gohan when he fought Goku was obviously not a real match it was a sparring match where his father wasn't trying at all. There isn't actually anything wrong with the characters being this strong. I Have no idea how you came to the conclusion that Bergamo's brothers are around the strength of Cell.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 3:25 pm

Always nice to see the 14,583rd base Goku argument where people regurgitate the same points that have already been addressed countless times.
TheSaiyanGod wrote:Vegeta CSSB can use the Hakai in the manga as well as Goku?
At the very least, Vegeta has the potential to use that technique at this point. Whether he actually knows how is another question entirely, and there's honestly no way of telling.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Apr 25, 2018 4:17 pm

PFM18 wrote:[I Have no idea how you came to the conclusion that Bergamo's brothers are around the strength of Cell.
Well they were weaker than Buu. The next one down is Cell probably.

Or considering they're about on par with Base Gohan you could say they were roughly as strong as Piccolo during the Resurrection F or Universe 6 saga of just Tagoma.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:14 pm

With regards to the upteenth "base form" debate, I'm of the opinion that Goku and Vegeta are indeed stronger than Majin Buu in their base forms; it's a good level to put them at, above their previous level of power before the new material but still fodder to god-forms.

It always made sense to have them be stronger than their last strongest opponent before Beerus without needing to transform after receiving godly training.

Of course, I'm also of the opinion that their base state being that strong doesn't deny weaker fighters being able to give them trouble; numbers, good skill/strategy, etc. can make up for the power level difference.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 6:28 pm

Bullza wrote:
PFM18 wrote:[I Have no idea how you came to the conclusion that Bergamo's brothers are around the strength of Cell.
Well they were weaker than Buu. The next one down is Cell probably.

Or considering they're about on par with Base Gohan you could say they were roughly as strong as Piccolo during the Resurrection F or Universe 6 saga of just Tagoma.
I mean I don't know if just saying "the next one down" is a particularly good gauge. They were weaker than Buu but not by much so I would still put them on the level of Buu but that is ultimately inconsequential.

Also, I don't see anything wrong with addressing the Base Goku power because I mean this is the DBS strength discussion thread right? Is that not a relevant discussion? I mean if it has been mentioned a million times I think it should be established that Goku's base is really freakin strong

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 8:47 pm

JazzMazz wrote: He wasn't transformations aren't multipliers, he was saying the number the transformations are a multiplier of(with the slight exception of Kaio-Ken), are almost entirely arbitrary.
How are the transformations or the Kaioken technique arbitrary though? That still doesn't even make sense to claim to be perfectly honest.
JazzMazz wrote: The number for the multiplier of each transformation is almost completely irrelevant to how the story is told. The purpose of each transformation, is basically to visually communicate how another character can surpass another character they were fighting evenly with or even losing to in a stylish fashion to the audience. It also communicates the basic vague idea of how strong said character is.
How another character can surpass another character? Well have you or PinWheel really seen Dragon Ball or Z or Super? Because even if a character transforms, that doesn't necessarily mean he could surpass his opponent. Like Gokou vs. Freeza on Namek, even when transformed he still had an tough and intense fight against Freeza. Gokou has transformed against plenty of opponents and has lost. Then later as a Super Saiyan 3 against Kid Boo, Gokou lost to him blatantly. So transformations and power ups are only just a plot device. The problem with saying transforming is plot and only plot; I mean yes indeed it is plot. But with power scaling, it is essentially a certain sense of the plot. And that sense is the power of the characters. And what power scaling does is basically extrapolating a certain sense of Dragon Ball's plot which is the power of the characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 9:09 pm

Rally 07 wrote: How another character can surpass another character? Well have you or PinWheel really seen Dragon Ball or Z or Super? Because even if a character transforms, that doesn't necessarily mean he could surpass his opponent. Like Gokou vs. Freeza on Namek, even when transformed he still had an tough and intense fight against Freeza. Gokou has transformed against plenty of opponents and has lost. Then later as a Super Saiyan 3 against Kid Boo, Gokou lost to him blatantly. So transformations and power ups are only just a plot device. The problem with saying transforming is plot and only plot; I mean yes indeed it is plot. But with power scaling, it is essentially a certain sense of the plot. And that sense is the power of the characters. And what power scaling does is basically extrapolating a certain sense of Dragon Ball's plot which is the power of the characters.
Minor nitpick: It was clear that Goku was going to win that fight because of the transformation seeing as how he had a higher starting power level, and doesn't have the stamina problem Freeza had.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Wed Apr 25, 2018 10:04 pm

Helios518 wrote: Minor nitpick: It was clear that Goku was going to win that fight because of the transformation seeing as how he had a higher starting power level, and doesn't have the stamina problem Freeza had.
While Gokou was stronger than Freeza on Namek and it was clear that he'd eventually win the fight; that doesn't negate the fact that Freeza was still very hard to put down and the fight was still very intense. Gokou was not just straight dominating Freeza. And certainly not Freeza at full power. Gokou was even getting briefly kicked around by Freeza at his absolute full power state after he let him power up to that state.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dbgtFO » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:02 am

Rally 07 wrote:Gokou was even getting briefly kicked around by Freeza at his absolute full power state after he let him power up to that state.
Because Goku let him, so he could get an up close and personal feel of his opponent's power.
It was an old habit of his; see vs Tao Pai Pai(round 2), vs Tenshinhan(22nd Tournament) and versus Piccolo(23rd Tournament).

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