Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:11 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Looking at the fight Vegeta clearly had control the entire time. I don't think base Cabba is fodder to him, but I do think he is weaker.
He's weaker, but he's definitely not 50 times weaker. He was clearly strong enough to give him a reasonable challenge to the point that Vegeta wanted to take their fight to the next transformation stage. Vegeta himself also said that they were around the same level. I don't think there's any way around that, honestly.

As for how they compare to other characters/arcs, that's a whole other discussion.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:28 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: He's weaker, but he's definitely not 50 times weaker. He was clearly strong enough to give him a reasonable challenge to the point that Vegeta wanted to take their fight to the next transformation stage. Vegeta himself also said that they were around the same level. I don't think there's any way around that, honestly.

As for how they compare to other characters/arcs, that's a whole other discussion.
I agree he isn't 50x stronger, though we don't even know how ssj works anymore. Kale is stronger than ssj Caulifla who is stronger than ssj Cabba, so is base Kale over 50x stronger than base Caulifla and Cabba? Would base Kale really be that much stronger than post Whis training Goku and Vegeta?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Fri Jun 22, 2018 11:35 pm

Koitsukai wrote:Tired SSG Goku was above Kale, way above? not that much above? almost on par? it doesn't matter, he still had the advantage even having to deal with another strong foe while being tired and almost dying against the strongest rival he ever fought, like 5 minutes ago.
A full rested SSG Goku fighting 1 vs 1, with all his attention on Kale and not also against SS2 Caulifla, would be enough. Actually tired SSB Goku held on pretty well against SS Kefla, I don't think Kale on her own could do better against a full power SSB Goku than SS Kefla. There is really no discussion about it, lame fanservice filler to evoke some old movie means nothing, also because it happened before the real fight when real power levels were displayed.

In the manga, yes, Kale is blue tier.
Goku himself also got stronger since he was able to fight a more power-up Jiren in 123 with just Blue when Kaioken Blue x20 Goku got wiped from a far more suppressed Jiren. That and Kale took a full punch to the face from Super Saiyan God Goku and wasn't even hurt. Super Saiyan 2 Cali was such a none factor in that fight that it was practically Super Saiyan God Goku vs Kale.

And good lord, stop using 'filler' incorrectly.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:50 am

dragon boss z wrote:Kale is stronger than ssj Caulifla who is stronger than ssj Cabba, so is base Kale over 50x stronger than base Caulifla and Cabba? Would base Kale really be that much stronger than post Whis training Goku and Vegeta?
Like I said, that's partly because she's a genetic oddity and partly because she's hypercompetent. Kale already doesn't adhere to the same logic as normal Saiyans, and given that she's based on a movie villain who was born with an abnormally high power level, it's not surprising that she would outstrip the Super Saiyans in her base form. It also helps to explain why her unique Super Saiyan form is so insanely strong compared to almost everything else.

Essentially, she's a freak of nature like Broly was. It's a similar principle to how Freeza was able to obtain god level strength from a mere few months of training.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jun 23, 2018 1:50 am

Marlowe89 wrote: Like I said, that's partly because she's a genetic oddity and partly because she's hypercompetent. Kale already doesn't adhere to the same logic as normal Saiyans, and given that she's based on a movie villain who was born with an abnormally high power level, it's not surprising that she would outstrip the Super Saiyans in her base form. It also helps to explain why her unique Super Saiyan form is so insanely strong compared to almost everything else.

Essentially, she's a freak of nature like Broly was. It's a similar principle to how Freeza was able to obtain god level strength from a mere few months of training.
I would agree if this was Goku and Vegeta before god training, but the universe saiyans (besides Kale) being on par with them in the same form just makes Goku and Vegeta look bad. They far younger with far less battle experience not even knowing about ssj before seeing Goku and Vegeta. Going by universe 7 logic they should at best be around namek tier. However since they are universe 6 prodigies I could see them being above buu saga saiyans, but being on the level of post god saiyans? That is too much. Though in the manga Goku never absorbed god ki, so it could work, but in the anime it makes it seem like base universe 6 saiyans are possibly above Buuhan, which makes no sense. But that is more of an anime problem. In the manga it seems all base saiyans are around Piccolo level, with some being stronger and others possibly being weaker.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:52 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: Yeah, after giving the Cabba and Vegeta fight a quick reread in the manga it is very apparent that Vegeta has the advantage.
The problem with your interpretation is that Vegeta outright told Cabba that they're more or less equal, just like in the anime. Vegeta is probably the stronger of the two but it couldn't be by that much, and their fight further corroborates this.

The reason that Kale is so far above her peers in base is most likely because she's part prodigy, part genetic anomaly. Goten and Trunks are also an exception since they're much weaker than their fathers. Otherwise, as per the dialogue itself, all the Saiyans are roughly in the same ballpark while in the same form.
I usually alway agree with statements, but how easily he treated Cabba in the end was pretty surprising. His one blow had clear lasting damage on Cabba, Cabbas on the other hand didn’t really do much at all, not to mention Cabba was panting after Vegeta landed the one. If I remember right the statement works a hell of a lot better in the anime. Ofcourse the gap can’t be super insane, but at the same time it’s large enough that in the manga it’s clear Vegeta would win the fight if it carried on.
Then a case can be made that Vegetas power would’ve started to decline by that stage, only slightly, but he definitely wasn’t fully fresh. Again, I’m definitely not somebody who believes he could’ve beat Cabbas SSJ form in just his base, but in the manga I now put Vegeta ahead of Cabba in that arc where as I previously didn’t think about it.

As was mentioned in my previous post, going off the showing against Freeza, Goku should be an absolute monster in his base form too. He was many times stronger than a SSJ Gohan, who was stronger than Piccolo, and we know for sure it wouldn’t be logical for Piccolo to be too far below his Cell games self (not going into any more detail than that, as my previous post highlighted my ideas a little more). Goku was just a monster in his base form because of the ritual, but that may have been forgotten about now, or the base saiyans in U6 are super strong, but the power ups our Saiyans have received post U6 has allowed them to fight against the likes of Caulifla the same way this powered up Freeza does. Either way we know these base from U6 Saiyans would beat SSJ Gohan from RoF easily, and he definitely wasn’t super weak.

Anyway, I’m happy that Kale is that strong in base, I believe that her base beats all of our base saiyans, and very comfortably at that. She’s a total freak, and her being a total freak cushions the blow that she’s surpassed SSJG. The manga did a great (not perfect) job at preserving the SSJG status, but I guess eventually something like this would happen.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 12:36 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Though in the manga Goku never absorbed god ki, so it could work, but in the anime it makes it seem like base universe 6 saiyans are possibly above Buuhan, which makes no sense.
I was under the impression that we were discussing the manga.

The anime is an altogether different can of worms, divided between two camps of people who either believe that its current scaling was changed to match the manga's or that it has progressively escalated from what was established in Resurrection 'F'. I belong in the former category, and I've discussed at length why I believe that to be the case in the past using a whole plethora of points to support it. I'm trying not to press that issue anymore, though, considering just how circular that topic tends to become here.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jun 23, 2018 2:15 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: I was under the impression that we were discussing the manga.
We were, though in the anime Vegeta caught up to Goku just with Whis training, so what I was saying is that Whis trained Goku and Vegeta should be stronger than the U6 saiyans except Kale. Also the RoF movie is pretty much the "canon" for the manga version of the events, as the RoF manga Toyotaro did was pretty much panel for panel the same as the movie, and when he had a flashback to the RoF arc in the ToP arc Shisami was there and not Tagoma implying it was the movie events. And in the movie base Goku was leagues above rusty ssj Gohan and Piccolo, who should be at least close to the base U6 saiyans I think.
The anime is an altogether different can of worms, divided between two camps of people who either believe that its current scaling was changed to match the manga's or that it has progressively escalated from what was established in Resurrection 'F'. I belong in the former category, and I've discussed at length why I believe that to be the case in the past using a whole plethora of points to support it. I'm trying not to press that issue anymore, though, considering just how circular that topic tends to become here.
I agree. It seemed the anime team just slowly tried to retcon the power scaling closer to the manga. I mean originally Goku was never supposed to go SSG again, but then he goes SSG like it's a form and he didn't absorb the power. Some people say he absorbed the power and goes SSG on top of that, but in an interview Toriyama flat out said Goku wouldn't go SSG again because he absorbed the power, so that's a contradiction. Though I do believe at least in the anime their base is on a completely different level than it used to be, I definitely don't think it's BoG SSG tier or above as some think. I would say around Super Buu tier or a bit above imo.

As for the manga I think it goes something like this for now
base Gohan<=>18<=>base Cabba<base Caulifla<=>Piccolo<Buu<=>Frost<=Frieza<=ssj Cabba<ssj Caulifla<base Kale<ssj Goku/Vegeta<17<Golden Frieza<=berserk Kale<=Toppo<=MSSB Goku/Vegeta<=>Hit<Jiren

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 3:16 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Also the RoF movie is pretty much the "canon" for the manga version of the events, as the RoF manga Toyotaro did was pretty much panel for panel the same as the movie
There's an issue with that too though, namely the fact that both the movie's supplementary materials and a panel within the RoF manga established base Goku to be as strong as Super Saiyan God. That can't be the case for the Super manga. We don't really know exactly how the arc transpired in that version.

Honestly, I think Whis' training in the manga was just for the purpose of having Goku and Vegeta obtain their Super Saiyan God forms without a ritual. I don't doubt that they became stronger from it too, but certainly not as much as the film implies.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:14 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote:Also the RoF movie is pretty much the "canon" for the manga version of the events, as the RoF manga Toyotaro did was pretty much panel for panel the same as the movie
There's an issue with that too though, namely the fact that both the movie's supplementary materials and a panel within the RoF manga established base Goku to be as strong as Super Saiyan God. That can't be the case for the Super manga. We don't really know exactly how the arc transpired in that version.

Honestly, I think Whis' training in the manga was just for the purpose of having Goku and Vegeta obtain their Super Saiyan God forms without a ritual. I don't doubt that they became stronger from it too, but certainly not as much as the film implies.
Actually I disagree that base Goku is implied to be SSG level in the movies. It was stated that Beerus used 70% of his power to beat SSG Goku by Whis, and it was stated in RoF SSB was still weaker than Beerus. And SSB was much stronger than base Goku, so base RoF Goku<<<SSG Goku<SSB Goku.
And I agree the BoG movie isn't canon to the manga as it went over that in the actual manga, but there is really nothing in the RoF movie alone that contradicts the manga. Also Toriyama was more involved in the RoF movie so that makes some sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 5:41 pm

dragon boss z wrote: And I agree the BoG movie isn't canon to the manga as it went over that in the actual manga, but there is really nothing in the RoF movie alone that contradicts the manga.
Firmly disagree. Dragon Ball Volume 'F', Dokkan Battle, and Toyotaro's Resurrection 'F' tie-in manga are all explicit about demonstrating the fact that Goku learned to obtain the power of a Super Saiyan God in just his ordinary base form, additionally establishing that transforming into a Super Saiyan while using that power results in a "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" (or Super Saiyan Blue). Those materials further corroborate the correct translation of Goku's stated definition for Blue.

The intention there was clear, and it definitely doesn't apply to the manga's continuity. I'm sure there would have been plenty of similarities between the two if Toyotaro didn't skip the arc, but it's abolutely safe to conclude that they wouldn't have been identical per se.

Toriyama's involvement doesn't necessitate the idea that there can't be alterations from his end, either. Shenron's dialogue and the Namekian Book of Legends is one such example.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jun 23, 2018 6:01 pm

Marlowe89 wrote: Firmly disagree. Dragon Ball Volume 'F', Dokkan Battle, and Toyotaro's Resurrection 'F' tie-in manga are all explicit about demonstrating the fact that Goku learned to obtain the power of a Super Saiyan God in just his ordinary base form, additionally establishing that transforming into a Super Saiyan while using that power results in a "Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan" (or Super Saiyan Blue). Those materials further corroborate the correct translation of Goku's stated definition for Blue.
Those outside materials can be retconned. I said if you go off the RoF movie alone, and nothing else, it can fit into the manga continuity quite nicely. Also when I first watched the movie it seemed clear to me that SSB was just the new god form that doesn't need a ritual. I agree god power massively boosted Goku's base, but that doesn't mean it was on the exact same level. As if it was then his ssj3 form would be 400x his SSG form, and would casually oneshot Beerus and Whis who were confirmed only a couple times stronger than SSG by Toriyama in the movie continuity. Especially Beerus who was confirmed less than 2x stronger than SSG in the movie itself. So the only way base RoF Goku is SSG level is if SSB makes him less than 2x stronger, which seems ridiculous.
The intention there was clear, and it definitely doesn't apply to the manga's continuity. I'm sure there would have been plenty of similarities between the two if Toyotaro didn't skip the arc, but it's abolutely safe to conclude that they wouldn't have been identical per se.
It was skipped because they thought it wasn't needed because we already saw the movie. They skipped the RoF arc in the manga before they got to it in the anime I believe so I assume we are supposed to go off the movie, which is backed up by only Shisami being there in the ToP arc flashback.
Toriyama's involvement doesn't necessitate the idea that there can't be alterations from his end, either. Shenron's dialogue and the Namekian Book of Legends is one such example.
Neither of those things are relevant to the RoF arc. Those are changes to the BoG movie, which from what I understand was an idea by Toei, which Toriyama decided to step in and make some changes, while the RoF movie idea came from Toryama and the script was marketed as written by Toriyama, while not the case for the BoG movie if I remember correctly.

While I agree if they ever made another flashback or redo the RoF arc in manga form, that would be the definitive version for the manga continuity, as of now I think the movie version should be used for the most part, but not absolute doctrine. If there was a relevant change Toyotaro wanted to make he most likely would have made it or showed it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:19 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Those outside materials can be retconned. I said if you go off the RoF movie alone, and nothing else, it can fit into the manga continuity quite nicely.
Goku's description for Blue directly corroborates those materials though, not to mention that the movie expands on the idea that Goku already absorbed Super Saiyan God unlike the manga. The idea that they were retconned is kind of my whole point -- they were perfectly applicable to the film's in-universe mechanics at the time, but they don't really extend to the manga's power scale. Most of us generally agree that Whis' training helped the Saiyans achieve Super Saiyan God on their own for the manga at least, so it's not unlikely that that would become its primary purpose as opposed to just having them be that strong in base.

For the movie in particular, Super Saiyan Blue didn't actually need to be all that great of a boost from "Saiyan Beyond God" at the time. In fact, that's what most people following these marketing materials thought during the months leading up to its release and beyond, especially since Blue was suggested to function as a replacement of sorts for the regular Super Saiyan form. Stuff like Dragon Ball Heroes took the same approach, so you can't claim that there wasn't an official precedent for it.
dragon boss z wrote: It was skipped because they thought it wasn't needed because we already saw the movie.
Possibly, but that doesn't change my stance. While Toyotaro is obviously conscious of consistent power-scaling, he probably didn't deem that aspect important enough to justify rewriting the whole arc. As long as we know the major plot points, that's all we need.
dragon boss z wrote: While I agree if they ever made another flashback or redo the RoF arc in manga form, that would be the definitive version for the manga continuity, as of now I think the movie version should be used for the most part, but not absolute doctrine.
For what it's worth, I do feel that the manga works as a solid follow-up to both Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' as far as tone, pacing, and writing are concerned. If anyone was ever interested in experiencing Super, that would be my recommended viewing order, personally. Its inner workings just aren't necessarily an absolute doctrine as you've said, and I doubt that the franchise's authorities obsess over scaling to the point that they would rework the entire story as a result.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sat Jun 23, 2018 7:37 pm

dragon boss z wrote: Those outside materials can be retconned. I said if you go off the RoF movie alone, and nothing else, it can fit into the manga continuity quite nicely.
Not really since the RoF movie directly continues from the BoGs film where Goku absorbed SSJG into his being and made it his own where in the DBS manga continuity no such thing took place. In the RoF film and all official supplement for it showcase base Goku as strong as SSJG form itself from the previous film, yet in the Zamasu Saga Goku's base and SSJ1-SSJ3 forms are shown and stated not to be that much different from his Buu Saga levels which directly conflicts with Goku's and Freeza's level during RoF film.

Keep in mind minus their SSJ2 forms Goku and Vegeta are shown as equal more or less in the same forms. Vegeta's SSJ level is shown greater than or equal to Cabba's SSJ during the U6T Saga which is perhaps a step below Caulifla's SSJ which puts here in range of SSJ Goku during the Buu Saga more or less. Well, SSJ Caulifla is shown roughly on par with final form Freeza which contradicts him being above Buu Saga levels during the RoF film.

Obviously the levels and events are way different from the manga to the film despite following similar paths.
I agree god power massively boosted Goku's base, but that doesn't mean it was on the exact same level. As if it was then his ssj3 form would be 400x his SSG form, and would casually oneshot Beerus and Whis who were confirmed only a couple times stronger than SSG by Toriyama in the movie continuity. Especially Beerus who was confirmed less than 2x stronger than SSG in the movie itself. So the only way base RoF Goku is SSG level is if SSB makes him less than 2x stronger, which seems ridiculous.
Why not? In the BoGs film Goku's base and SSJ are indentical in power level against Beerus (the same thing happens in the anime) where Beerus states Goku remains at the same level and didn't lose SSJG level despite no longer being in the form itself anymore. For whatever reason, the SSJG changed something about how Goku's SSJ forms worked otherwise if they remained true Goku turning SSJ would have floored Beerus despite his base form taking the fight to a Beerus using around 70% his full power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jun 24, 2018 12:54 am

Marlowe89 wrote: Goku's description for Blue directly corroborates those materials though
The explanation of blue was SSG ki mixed with ssj ki. That contradicts nothing I said.
Possibly, but that doesn't change my stance. While Toyotaro is obviously conscious of consistent power-scaling, he probably didn't deem that aspect important enough to justify rewriting the whole arc. As long as we know the major plot points, that's all we need.
Ya but it makes more sense for now to say the RoF movie is the events of the manga for now instead of saying the events canon to the manga are unseen and we will never see them.
For what it's worth, I do feel that the manga works as a solid follow-up to both Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' as far as tone, pacing, and writing are concerned. If anyone was ever interested in experiencing Super, that would be my recommended viewing order, personally. Its inner workings just aren't necessarily an absolute doctrine as you've said, and I doubt that the franchise's authorities obsess over scaling to the point that they would rework the entire story as a result.
Ya I agree. I think the manga could have just started at the u6 arc if it wanted to. It just quickly went over the BoG events to catch everyone up who hasn't seen the movies with important details.
lord turbo wrote: Not really since the RoF movie directly continues from the BoGs film where Goku absorbed SSJG into his being and made it his own where in the DBS manga continuity no such thing took place. In the RoF film and all official supplement for it showcase base Goku as strong as SSJG form itself from the previous film, yet in the Zamasu Saga Goku's base and SSJ1-SSJ3 forms are shown and stated not to be that much different from his Buu Saga levels which directly conflicts with Goku's and Freeza's level during RoF film.
Being a direct continuation doesn't mean much, as Halloween 2 is a direct sequel to Halloween, but supposedly the new movie coming out will only act as if the first 1 ever happened. In a similar fashion you could say the RoF movie works the same way with the manga, as if you just watch RoF after reading the BoG arc of the manga, I don't think you would notice any contradictions.
Keep in mind minus their SSJ2 forms Goku and Vegeta are shown as equal more or less in the same forms. Vegeta's SSJ level is shown greater than or equal to Cabba's SSJ during the U6T Saga which is perhaps a step below Caulifla's SSJ which puts here in range of SSJ Goku during the Buu Saga more or less. Well, SSJ Caulifla is shown roughly on par with final form Freeza which contradicts him being above Buu Saga levels during the RoF film.
Or maybe the universe 6 saiyans are just much stronger than the buu saga saiyans.
Why not? In the BoGs film Goku's base and SSJ are indentical in power level against Beerus (the same thing happens in the anime) where Beerus states Goku remains at the same level and didn't lose SSJG level despite no longer being in the form itself anymore. For whatever reason, the SSJG changed something about how Goku's SSJ forms worked otherwise if they remained true Goku turning SSJ would have floored Beerus despite his base form taking the fight to a Beerus using around 70% his full power.
I think Goku was plot boosted for that fight. During RoF I don't think Goku could fight Beerus seriously without going SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Sun Jun 24, 2018 1:48 pm

dragon boss z wrote:Being a direct continuation doesn't mean much, as Halloween 2 is a direct sequel to Halloween, but supposedly the new movie coming out will only act as if the first 1 ever happened. In a similar fashion you could say the RoF movie works the same way with the manga, as if you just watch RoF after reading the BoG arc of the manga, I don't think you would notice any contradictions.
Using the Halloween series as an example is laughable since counting just the first series (not the Rob Zombie ones) there are 3 different continuities:

H1, H2, H4-6
H1, H2, H20YL, HR
H1, H40YL

Not remotely applicable to BoG and RoF films at all. My point is you can't cant the RoF film since it set in the same world and storyline as BoGs which direcrly contradicts the BoG events for the manga version, especially taking what we know now in the ToP Saga for the manga which heavily contradicts the levels shown in the RoF film
dragon boss z wrote: Or maybe the universe 6 saiyans are just much stronger than the buu saga saiyans.
Only if you ignore exactly what I said which in case the Zamasu Saga directly shows the U6 Saiyans would rival the Buu Saga SSs, not be much stronger than them.
I think Goku was plot boosted for that fight. During RoF I don't think Goku could fight Beerus seriously without going SSB.
Like others have said, for the films base Goku was SSG level and SS was essentially what we call SSBlue now, things are obviously different since post RoF Saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:58 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote: Looking at the fight Vegeta clearly had control the entire time. I don't think base Cabba is fodder to him, but I do think he is weaker.
He's weaker, but he's definitely not 50 times weaker. He was clearly strong enough to give him a reasonable challenge to the point that Vegeta wanted to take their fight to the next transformation stage. Vegeta himself also said that they were around the same level. I don't think there's any way around that, honestly.

As for how they compare to other characters/arcs, that's a whole other discussion.
Doesn't the subs say they are equal in base form?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jun 24, 2018 4:24 pm

lord turbo wrote: Using the Halloween series as an example is laughable since counting just the first series (not the Rob Zombie ones) there are 3 different continuities:

H1, H2, H4-6
H1, H2, H20YL, HR
H1, H40YL

Not remotely applicable to BoG and RoF films at all. My point is you can't cant the RoF film since it set in the same world and storyline as BoGs which direcrly contradicts the BoG events for the manga version, especially taking what we know now in the ToP Saga for the manga which heavily contradicts the levels shown in the RoF film
Um you realize there are probably more dragon ball continuities than Halloween continuities right? lmao
Only if you ignore exactly what I said which in case the Zamasu Saga directly shows the U6 Saiyans would rival the Buu Saga SSs, not be much stronger than them.
Are you talking about Trunks? He was around Buu saga tier when he fought Dabura, he was much stronger when he fought Goku. His ssj2 form was comparable to post Whis training ssj3 Goku.
Like others have said, for the films base Goku was SSG level and SS was essentially what we call SSBlue now, things are obviously different since post RoF Saga.
That only works if SSB is less than a 2x multiplier from his base, which is ridiculous. And if ssj Goku pushed Beerus to 70%, he could have went ssj3 to surpass him, but he didn't because he couldn't. During the Beerus fight Goku retained some of the SSG power and was able to fight off Beerus not even realizing his power changed, and then he actually became a SSG again at the end of the fight for a split second. Using that fight as a baseline just isn't a good idea in general.
ZombieVito wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:
dragon boss z wrote: Looking at the fight Vegeta clearly had control the entire time. I don't think base Cabba is fodder to him, but I do think he is weaker.
He's weaker, but he's definitely not 50 times weaker. He was clearly strong enough to give him a reasonable challenge to the point that Vegeta wanted to take their fight to the next transformation stage. Vegeta himself also said that they were around the same level. I don't think there's any way around that, honestly.

As for how they compare to other characters/arcs, that's a whole other discussion.
Doesn't the subs say they are equal in base form?
He told Cabba in their current states he can keep up with him, but when he said that, on that same page Cabba was injured holding his arm while Vegeta was looking fine. In both the anime and the manga it seemed Vegeta was trying to get Cabba to go ssj on him.

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Marlowe89
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Jun 24, 2018 8:23 pm

ZombieVito wrote:Doesn't the subs say they are equal in base form?
Vegeta indicated that they were more or less equal in both versions. There's a large enough gap between forms that base Vegeta obviously isn't going to be stronger than Super Saiyan Cabba. They're basically on the same level, with Vegeta a notch or two above Cabba.

Looking at both the anime and manga, there's more than enough evidence to suggest the Saiyans (excluding Kale) are comparable in power while in the same form. I'd say it's something like Goku = Vegeta = Gohan > Caulifla > Cabba for their base states, but certainly nothing drastic.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by brett wheeler » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:38 am

dear god I haven't been on here in a while but I have my own opinions on the current conversation.

first, RoF the movie could be exactly what happened in the manga as well, all you would have to say is in the manga one, base goku wasn't as strong as ssg but was stronger than rusty ssj gohan, and piccolo, and there.

second,base saiyans in both manga and anime are a good ways above there buu saga counter parts, example for the manga being goku was able to stand during rumoshi roar while all supreme kai tier and below fell to the floor, since supreme kai was only slightly below ssj goku in the buu saga we can assume there atleast stronger than ssj goku in the buu saga ( my bet on base saiyans in the manga being any where from super buu to buutenks tier ), excluding kale of course.

lastly, kale is a natural born mega prodigy and also a genetic mishap, her being stronger than super saiyan's without transforming shouldn't be a problem, she is also a broly reference so of course thay would do something like this, broly sells.

this is my take on things, I will gladly debate my stance further if necessary.

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