Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssj3kakarot]

Probably.

We also have to remember that, at first, it was only Merged Zamasu's corrupted half that was doing the work in fighting off SSB Vegito. It was later in the fight where Merged Zamasu buffed up where he was overall about equal to SSB Vegito but sacrificed for that power in his speed.

I was talking in general. I took the buffed Zamasu into account.

Sure Jiren is strong, but how could he possibly defeat Infinite Zamasu?

He can't. No one can't except Zeno.

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

I think you're wrong, and the narrative supports my idea. No one could have destroyed Infinite Zamazu other than Zeno. That is the entire reason Goku was given the button ( via the writers). I'd go as far to say I dont believe even the Grand Priest could have "handled" Infinite Zamazu. Sure, GP is galaxies stronger than anything IZ can dish out, but that doesn't mean GP has what it takes to put IZ down. Hence why they needed to call in the Top-Dog. Basically, just because you're stronger than IZ, doesn't mean you can wipe him out.

edit: I also dont think Zamasu could have caused any harm to someone like Grand Priest. I bring him up only to emphasize that Infinite Zamasu needed to be shut down and Zeno was the only one capable of doing such a task.

[SupremeKai25]

I was talking in general. I took the buffed Zamasu into account.


He can't. No one can't except Zeno.

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

I think you're wrong, and the narrative supports my idea. No one could have destroyed Infinite Zamazu other than Zeno. That is the entire reason Goku was given the button ( via the writers). I'd go as far to say I dont believe even the Grand Priest could have "handled" Infinite Zamazu. Sure, GP is galaxies stronger than anything IZ can dish out, but that doesn't mean GP has what it takes to put IZ down. Hence why they needed to call in the Top-Dog. Basically, just because you're stronger than IZ, doesn't mean you can wipe him out.

edit: I also dont think Zamasu could have caused any harm to someone like Grand Priest. I bring him up only to emphasize that Infinite Zamasu needed to be shut down and Zeno was the only one capable of doing such a task.

Indeed, No one could have destroyed Zamasu, he was immortal and evelasting, and his invulnerability was granted to him by the divine Dragon of the Gods, so it was perfect. Even the power of ALL MORTALS on Earth couldn't kill Fused Zamasu, but merely cleaved his physical form.

So Jiren and Kefla might be stronger than Infinite Zamasu (although I find the very idea of a mortal being stronger than a 4th dimensional astral God to be laughable and stupid), but naturally they would never destroy him. And as they are mortal, with each blow they would get more tired, while Zamasu wouldn't. He wasn't just immortal, his regeneration capabilities were also flawless and second to none.

Indeed, Shin only stated that Jiren was stronger/different than anyone they faced before, but they never faced Infinite Zamasu, they just summoned Zeno and fled. And Zeno himself couldn't destroy Infinite Zamasu without destroying the entire multiverse in the process, as the immortal spirit of Zamasu had become one with the very fabric of the cosmos. This proves that Zamasu truly was the greatest threat in Dragon Ball, even more so than Jiren and Broly. For what is ultimate strength against divine immortality?

[ZombieVito]

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

No. Only full power Jiren surpassed Corrupted Merged Zamasu.

Strength means jack when you are immortal and can't even be hit. Infinite Zamasu can literally blast them for all eternity and they can't do anything about it.

[PFM18]

Probably.

We also have to remember that, at first, it was only Merged Zamasu's corrupted half that was doing the work in fighting off SSB Vegito. It was later in the fight where Merged Zamasu buffed up where he was overall about equal to SSB Vegito but sacrificed for that power in his speed.

I was talking in general. I took the buffed Zamasu into account.

Sure Jiren is strong, but how could he possibly defeat Infinite Zamasu?

He can't. No one can't except Zeno.

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

No, he really wasn't. Definitely not "several times", there's implications sure, but there wasn't any explicit confirmation of anything outside of his max power.

Would people say that Jiren at his weakest level that he used, basically when he fought Goku the first time...would already be stronger than Merged Zamasu?

Nah, I wouldn't say that. I assume the talk about him being Hakaishin level at that time was a projection. As if to say, "Wow, he's this strong and he's still not even trying yet!"

[ankokudaishogun]

To be honest the real reason why Shin parried Zamasu's attack was Plot. In reality, Shin is a gnat compared to Infinite Zamasu. He is a gnat compared to Present Zamasu!

Present Zamasu was about SS2-level, Shin is probably SS1G2-level

That said, defeating Infinite Zamasu wasn't a matter of power itself, because he became Rerality and stopped having a body to punch.
One cannot punch the sky.

Sure Jiren is strong, but how could he possibly defeat Infinite Zamasu?

He would punch the sky.
At Jiren's level, KO'ing the sky is as much as hard as moving in the frozen time.

Well in the manga Fused Zamasu was stomped by Vegito

To be fair, Manga Zamasu didn't power-up.
He didn't get Halo nor Grotesque.
Vegetto Blue~>Grotesque>Halo>Manga(base)

And were it not for his immortality, Vegetto would have done short work of Grotesque

[Bullza]

So more than a few think Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu could beat suppressed Jiren then?

What about the fact that Merged Zamasu was easily done in by Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb whereas the suppressed Jiren was able to force back the Spirit Bomb that was being pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20?

Doesn't that account for anything?

I never gave it too much thought but I think you could also say

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Merged Zamasu > Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (2) > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Suppressed Jiren = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (1)

[ZombieVito]

So more than a few think Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu could beat suppressed Jiren then?

What about the fact that Merged Zamasu was easily done in by Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb whereas the suppressed Jiren was able to force back the Spirit Bomb that was being pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20?

Doesn't that account for anything?

I never gave it too much thought but I think you could also say

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Merged Zamasu > Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (2) > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Suppressed Jiren = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (1)

I play with the idea that Merged Zamasu did get weaker as he fought Vegetto. it is stated that his body is falling apart after all.

In any case Trunks Genkidama is different. He actually absorbed it and we know that Toei treats that as a multiplication not an addition so he can reach GoD tier with it IMO.

[ruler9871]

I was talking in general. I took the buffed Zamasu into account.


He can't. No one can't except Zeno.

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

I think you're wrong, and the narrative supports my idea. No one could have destroyed Infinite Zamazu other than Zeno. That is the entire reason Goku was given the button ( via the writers). I'd go as far to say I dont believe even the Grand Priest could have "handled" Infinite Zamazu. Sure, GP is galaxies stronger than anything IZ can dish out, but that doesn't mean GP has what it takes to put IZ down. Hence why they needed to call in the Top-Dog. Basically, just because you're stronger than IZ, doesn't mean you can wipe him out.

edit: I also dont think Zamasu could have caused any harm to someone like Grand Priest. I bring him up only to emphasize that Infinite Zamasu needed to be shut down and Zeno was the only one capable of doing such a task.

Literally anyone who is at the level of power as the people I listed and knows a technique like Hakai (which can kill immortals) could easily get rid of Infinite Zamasu. Toppo, all the GoDs and Angels all know Hakai and they all scale higher than Infinite Zamasu.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So more than a few think Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu could beat suppressed Jiren then?

What about the fact that Merged Zamasu was easily done in by Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb whereas the suppressed Jiren was able to force back the Spirit Bomb that was being pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20?

Doesn't that account for anything?

I never gave it too much thought but I think you could also say

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Merged Zamasu > Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (2) > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Suppressed Jiren = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (1)

Thing with the Genkidama in both instances is usage.

Against Jiren, Goku was pushing a massive Genkidama at Jiren like he did against Pure Buu; the power difference plays a great factor in a pushing match, which is how Pure Buu managed to hold it back so well against even a tired base Goku. However, with Future Trunks, his Genkidama Sword condensed the Genki into a sword brimming with pure energy. Merged Zamasu himself was pure evil and falling apart in terms of physicality.

Thus, the Genkidama Sword could be more effectively wielded in powerful slashes and stabs that greatly damaged Merged Zamasu. We have to remember that, despite his growing strength, EVERYTHING was going against Merged Zamasu. His body was at its limits for what it could handle, and with how evil he was and how concentrated the Genki was, the sword would've easily done the trick.

[ruler9871]

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

No. Only full power Jiren surpassed Corrupted Merged Zamasu.

Strength means jack when you are immortal and can't even be hit. Infinite Zamasu can literally blast them for all eternity and they can't do anything about it.

If any of the people I listed use Hakai or something similar then Infinite Zamasu is done for.

Jiren was outright said to be stronger than any previous enemy when he was still suppressed. It is pure headcanon to assume that any version of Zamasu could stand a chance against any version of Jiren.

[ruler9871]

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

I think you're wrong, and the narrative supports my idea. No one could have destroyed Infinite Zamazu other than Zeno. That is the entire reason Goku was given the button ( via the writers). I'd go as far to say I dont believe even the Grand Priest could have "handled" Infinite Zamazu. Sure, GP is galaxies stronger than anything IZ can dish out, but that doesn't mean GP has what it takes to put IZ down. Hence why they needed to call in the Top-Dog. Basically, just because you're stronger than IZ, doesn't mean you can wipe him out.

edit: I also dont think Zamasu could have caused any harm to someone like Grand Priest. I bring him up only to emphasize that Infinite Zamasu needed to be shut down and Zeno was the only one capable of doing such a task.

Indeed, No one could have destroyed Zamasu, he was immortal and evelasting, and his invulnerability was granted to him by the divine Dragon of the Gods, so it was perfect. Even the power of ALL MORTALS on Earth couldn't kill Fused Zamasu, but merely cleaved his physical form.

So Jiren and Kefla might be stronger than Infinite Zamasu (although I find the very idea of a mortal being stronger than a 4th dimensional astral God to be laughable and stupid), but naturally they would never destroy him. And as they are mortal, with each blow they would get more tired, while Zamasu wouldn't. He wasn't just immortal, his regeneration capabilities were also flawless and second to none.

Indeed, Shin only stated that Jiren was stronger/different than anyone they faced before, but they never faced Infinite Zamasu, they just summoned Zeno and fled. And Zeno himself couldn't destroy Infinite Zamasu without destroying the entire multiverse in the process, as the immortal spirit of Zamasu had become one with the very fabric of the cosmos. This proves that Zamasu truly was the greatest threat in Dragon Ball, even more so than Jiren and Broly. For what is ultimate strength against divine immortality?

This is a false argument. The Z-fighters did face Infinite Zamasu, sensed his power and Goku, Vegeta & Future Trunks were abled to deflect one of his mouth blast. There's no reason to dismiss Vegeta, Goku and Shin's claims about Suppressed Jiren>>>>any previous enemy outside of bias.

[PFM18]

Suppressed Jiren was confirmed stronger than Infinite Zamasu several times in the ToP. People should stop wanking Infinite Zamasu. Literally anyone who's at least 1st Omen Goku level or higher (Current SSBKKx20 Goku, SSBE Vegeta, SSJ2 Kefla, God Toppo, any version of Jiren, any Hakaishin, any Angel, Current Vegito/Gogeta, Broly, etc) could wipe out Infinite Zamasu easily.

No. Only full power Jiren surpassed Corrupted Merged Zamasu.

Strength means jack when you are immortal and can't even be hit. Infinite Zamasu can literally blast them for all eternity and they can't do anything about it.

If any of the people I listed use Hakai or something similar then Infinite Zamasu is done for.

Jiren was outright said to be stronger than any previous enemy when he was still suppressed. It is pure headcanon to assume that any version of Zamasu could stand a chance against any version of Jiren.

Obviously Jiren>Merged Zamasu, but suppressed Jiren>Merged Zamasu is questionable at best.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Hakai is not as all powerful as you guys think. Freeza tanked Sidra, Vegeta overpowered many of Toppo's. Zamasu has immortality from the SDB, i don't think a hakai can beat that unless its from Zeno

[ruler9871]

Hakai is not as all powerful as you guys think. Freeza tanked Sidra, Vegeta overpowered many of Toppo's. Zamasu has immortality from the SDB, i don't think a hakai can beat that unless its from Zeno

All of those cases you listed are examples of weaker characters using Hakai against stronger ones.

Everyone I listed is stronger than Infinite Zamasu by scaling.

[Hugo Boss]

Hakai is not as all powerful as you guys think. Freeza tanked Sidra, Vegeta overpowered many of Toppo's. Zamasu has immortality from the SDB, i don't think a hakai can beat that unless its from Zeno

All of those cases you listed are examples of weaker characters using Hakai against stronger ones.

Everyone I listed is stronger than Infinite Zamasu by scaling.

Goku and Vegeta disputed the idea of Beerus destroying an immortal being when they came up with the idea of Future Beerus confronting Future Zamas again. Whis pretty much implied they were right, the plan was sealing Zamas, so Beerus would beat Zamas with some kind of sealing technique.

[Koitsukai]

So more than a few think Half Corrupted Merged Zamasu could beat suppressed Jiren then?

What about the fact that Merged Zamasu was easily done in by Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb whereas the suppressed Jiren was able to force back the Spirit Bomb that was being pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20?

Doesn't that account for anything?

I never gave it too much thought but I think you could also say

Super Saiyan Blue Vegito > Merged Zamasu > Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (2) > Super Saiyan 2 Kefla > Suppressed Jiren = Ultra Instinct Omen Goku (1)

I'm still putting my money on Jiren 109-110. Shin stated as much, the strongest enemy ever. He witnessed Black Rose, Zamasu, Merged Zamasu, corrupted Zamasu, giant Zamasu, cut in half Zamasu, infinite Zamasu. Then saw Jiren and concluded so, and Jiren lived up to that statement, so why doubt that? It was stated by a character whose only purpose nowadays is to state this kind of things. He casually dismissed SSBK20+Genki Dama, then UI and then Hit and he even managed to outrun time itself or whatever that was.
Being able to destroy Zamasu is a different thing. But he was able to surpass time, even the angels discussed it and seemed amazed by it, so maybe space-time character means nothing to him. Time doesn't, so who knows?

[ZombieVito]

If any of the people I listed use Hakai or something similar then Infinite Zamasu is done for.

Hakai can't kill immortal beings...

In the anime is heavily implied Beerus can only beat Future Zamasu by sealing him and in the manga he outright confirms it.

Also Zeno's technique is not Hakai.

[ruler9871]

If any of the people I listed use Hakai or something similar then Infinite Zamasu is done for.

Hakai can't kill immortal beings...

In the anime is heavily implied Beerus can only beat Future Zamasu by sealing him and in the manga he outright confirms it.

Also Zeno's technique is not Hakai.

No such implication was in the anime, where's your source?

The point of Hakai is to erase souls completely.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Whis in episode 67 said they had a superior sealing method compared to Mafuba, if beerus could just hakai immortal zamasu, there would have been no need for it in the timeline trunks was sent to

[ZombieVito]

No such implication was in the anime, where's your source?

The point of Hakai is to erase souls completely.

The fact that Future Whis and Beerus need to seal Future Zamasu?

By your logic since Beerus is stronger he can hakai him easily but no, they can only seal him up as confirmed by Whis.