Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by omaro34 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:00 am

Pannaliciour wrote:Relax you guys, wait for the chapter to come out. Master Roshi was probably holding back.
Well of course he was. He didn't go buff mode.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:03 am

omaro34 wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:Relax you guys, wait for the chapter to come out. Master Roshi was probably holding back.
Well of course he was. He didn't go buff mode.
Oh, shit. I didn't realize that. That just makes the whole scenario even worse.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Pannaliciour » Sat Aug 18, 2018 5:51 am

I think we are stuck to the fact that manga never ever had fillers in dragon ball & z. We always thought that it was anime only. But we have to accept that with Super thats no more the case. Manga has fillers to. Why not?

Krillin vs ssj blue goku (anime) was filler now roshi vs jiren is filler. Case closed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:08 am

Pannaliciour wrote:I think we are stuck to the fact that manga never ever had fillers in dragon ball & z. We always thought that it was anime only. But we have to accept that with Super thats no more the case. Manga has fillers to. Why not?

Krillin vs ssj blue goku (anime) was filler now roshi vs jiren is filler. Case closed.
Thing is, there are two very different set of circumstances surrounding those fights.

One was a friendly spar between best friends.

The other is match for the survival of the universe, with an enemy that is bent on defeating him.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by sintzu » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:38 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:I think we are stuck to the fact that manga never ever had fillers in dragon ball & z. We always thought that it was anime only. But we have to accept that with Super thats no more the case. Manga has fillers to. Why not?

Krillin vs ssj blue goku (anime) was filler now roshi vs jiren is filler. Case closed.
Thing is, there are two very different set of circumstances surrounding those fights.

One was a friendly spar between best friends.

The other is match for the survival of the universe, with an enemy that is bent on defeating him.
I don't care how friendly it was, Krillin should never have been able to hold up against a SsjB. Forget that, Krillin shouldn't even be able to hold up against a normal Ssj.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:44 am

sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote:
Pannaliciour wrote:I think we are stuck to the fact that manga never ever had fillers in dragon ball & z. We always thought that it was anime only. But we have to accept that with Super thats no more the case. Manga has fillers to. Why not?

Krillin vs ssj blue goku (anime) was filler now roshi vs jiren is filler. Case closed.
Thing is, there are two very different set of circumstances surrounding those fights.

One was a friendly spar between best friends.

The other is match for the survival of the universe, with an enemy that is bent on defeating him.
I don't care how friendly it was, Krillin should never have been able to hold up against a SsjB. Forget that, Krillin shouldn't even be able to hold up against a normal Ssj.
How friendly it was is directly relevant though to what happened.

Also, he couldn't hold up against SS Goku, much less Blue Goku, who they make abundantly clear, is way over Kuririn's head. The point of that, was to show his determination, if he was faced with an opponent like Goku in the TOP.

The also make it implicitly clear, that this is a Kuririn that's never been in better shape.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:50 am

If Super Saiyan Goku is shown to fight on par with Super Saiyan Gohan and then later on they make a point about how Gohan does not have his original power (Ultimate Gohan from the Buu saga) then isn't that a simple way of determining that there's been a retcon?

At least at one point his Base form was above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks. Then as a Super Saiyan he was weaker than Ultimate Gohan from Z.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Aug 18, 2018 6:57 am

Saiga wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:This Roshi thing is very similar to base Goku vs SSJ2 Caulifla. For some reason the 100x increase wasn’t enough for Caulifla to speedblitz Goku because of Goku’s technique. Shortly after it’s sort of ruined becaue Base Kafla destroys SSJG Goku, but is below SSJB Goku (which has to be below 100x SSJG, surely), but that’s besides the point.
This is clearly way worse because it’s Roshi vs the stupidly insane Jiren, but it’s the same idea behind it, but with a little bit extra added from bits I’ve read.

If Roshi had the odd moment like this in the original I would give it a pass, but really it’s just an asspull. Although Jiren is super duper suppressed, there should always be a massive speed difference between the two. I always try to think of something like this happeneing against the antagonists from ‘Z’, and all I can see is Roshis head being punched off.
Being suppressed also effects speed, so it's really a question how how suppressed Jiren is.
Yeah I know, but when I typed this out I was thinking back to how SSJG Goku speedblitzed Trunks and didn’t kill him in the manga, he only really knocked him out for a second. So Jiren should actually be able to do the same thing, I just wish these things were consistent across the board, but Super as a whole isn’t consistent.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:16 am

Honestly, I'm more interested in how this will affect what people perceive to be power differences between mediums.

Roshi, I don't see as much of a problem in this department because it's clear that power isn't at play in the Jiren situation, at least to me since I'm used to seeing things beyond strength.

As for Gohan and Kefla, now THAT'S the more interesting one. It looks to be a straight-up slugfest, and THOSE tend to be the more accurate measures of power ranking, at least based on how I've interpreted scenes in both mediums, since it's generally two fighters specifically fighting at relatively even levels with potential differences highlighted in the chaos; basically, a full-on DBZ fight rather than a DB-inspired fight.

It makes me curious as to whether or not it'll highlight major differences in power rankings between the manga and anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:19 am

JazzMazz wrote:
sintzu wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Thing is, there are two very different set of circumstances surrounding those fights.

One was a friendly spar between best friends.

The other is match for the survival of the universe, with an enemy that is bent on defeating him.
I don't care how friendly it was, Krillin should never have been able to hold up against a SsjB. Forget that, Krillin shouldn't even be able to hold up against a normal Ssj.
How friendly it was is directly relevant though to what happened.

Also, he couldn't hold up against SS Goku, much less Blue Goku, who they make abundantly clear, is way over Kuririn's head. The point of that, was to show his determination, if he was faced with an opponent like Goku in the TOP.

The also make it implicitly clear, that this is a Kuririn that's never been in better shape.
Hell, Krillin in that episode got his ass kicked by Base Gohan when Gohan decided to put some effort into fighting him (at Krillin's demand, mind you). It's made very clear the Saiyans outmatch Krillin if they were to put any kind of effort into fighting him. Goku using SSJB in that occasion wasn't to test Krillin's strength, it was test his courage and mentaility in battle.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by IM21 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 7:56 am

As a guy that prefers manga over the anime this Roshi bullshit better have a good explanation. :problem:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:23 am

Sora Saiyan wrote:
Saiga wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote:This Roshi thing is very similar to base Goku vs SSJ2 Caulifla. For some reason the 100x increase wasn’t enough for Caulifla to speedblitz Goku because of Goku’s technique. Shortly after it’s sort of ruined becaue Base Kafla destroys SSJG Goku, but is below SSJB Goku (which has to be below 100x SSJG, surely), but that’s besides the point.
This is clearly way worse because it’s Roshi vs the stupidly insane Jiren, but it’s the same idea behind it, but with a little bit extra added from bits I’ve read.

If Roshi had the odd moment like this in the original I would give it a pass, but really it’s just an asspull. Although Jiren is super duper suppressed, there should always be a massive speed difference between the two. I always try to think of something like this happeneing against the antagonists from ‘Z’, and all I can see is Roshis head being punched off.
Being suppressed also effects speed, so it's really a question how how suppressed Jiren is.
Yeah I know, but when I typed this out I was thinking back to how SSJG Goku speedblitzed Trunks and didn’t kill him in the manga, he only really knocked him out for a second. So Jiren should actually be able to do the same thing, I just wish these things were consistent across the board, but Super as a whole isn’t consistent.
Oh, sure. We haven't had an example (that I can think of) of another character struggling to hold back the correct amount against a weaker opponent. But that's a smaller problem for me than outright inconsistencies/wonky scaling.

Roshi's a lot weaker than Trunks, and Jiren is ridiculously powerful. I can buy him being overly cautious in that situation, and not being able to control his strength so well as to immediately one-shot him without risk.

Actually, come to think of it, in the Goku-Trunks example didn't Goku immediately apologize for how hard he hit Trunks? It makes it sound like he didn't have complete control in that situation either.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:31 am

Saiga wrote:Actually, come to think of it, in the Goku-Trunks example didn't Goku immediately apologize for how hard he hit Trunks? It makes it sound like he didn't have complete control in that situation either.
Yes, he did which is still moronic when Goku was able to double his power through KK and one-shot Nappa with perfect accuracy in the heat of the moment. Why everyone is suddenly incompetent whenever they need to hold back I don't know.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Sat Aug 18, 2018 8:56 am

Saiga wrote: Actually, come to think of it, in the Goku-Trunks example didn't Goku immediately apologize for how hard he hit Trunks? It makes it sound like he didn't have complete control in that situation either.
I do remember something like that happening. So logically it would make sense that Jiren would suppress himself a little too much, and with Roshis weird dodging ability I guess it does make a little sense.
I think people have a hard time with this because Jiren doesn’t have any transformations so we don’t know how much power he’s showing at any given point. He’s doing to Roshi what he’s been doing to Blue Goku (not going for a decisive blow), but obviously he’s doing it at two entirely different levels. So it does a good job at showing in a power equalised fight current Roshi would probably beat current Goku.

I hope this isn’t misconstrued as me liking this, I really don’t, but the example I was thinking of to explain why this was bad did have Goku apologising after, and given Jirens apparent reluctance to immediately go for the kill in his skirmishes this could work. I just wish it never happened.

This tournament was always gonna have these wonky power issues as killing isn’t allowed.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Saiga » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:22 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
Saiga wrote:Actually, come to think of it, in the Goku-Trunks example didn't Goku immediately apologize for how hard he hit Trunks? It makes it sound like he didn't have complete control in that situation either.
Yes, he did which is still moronic when Goku was able to double his power through KK and one-shot Nappa with perfect accuracy in the heat of the moment. Why everyone is suddenly incompetent whenever they need to hold back I don't know.
He broke Nappa's spine, that's definitely holding back a lot less than he should be with Trunks.

And even doubling his power shouldn't be as big a difference as SSG is.

@Sora Oh, I don't like the idea very much either. I'm waiting for the chapter to drop though, because on paper the idea isn't impossible. Just kinda silly.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by DestructoDisc » Sat Aug 18, 2018 9:26 am

I don't know what's funnier. The chapter leaks or people trying to defend it.

I hope we will get UI Chiaotzu in the next arc and see him dodge attacks from Broly

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:19 am

Vegetto is the only BROKEN potara fusion in TORIYAMA's continuity.

Kefla was obscenely OP in the anime only
Kibitoshin wasn't anything
M Zamasu was only OP in the anime.


Maybe these guidebooks and (A*B) don't really hold up, who would have thought? :roll:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:21 am

MoscoSama wrote:Vegetto is the only BROKEN potara fusion in TORIYAMA's continuity.

Kefla was obscenely OP in the anime only
Kibitoshin wasn't anything
M Zamasu was only OP in the anime.


Maybe these guidebooks and (A*B) don't really hold up, who would have thought? :roll:
Vegetto only beat Boohan with SS, it's the anime that makes him much stronger as it did for Kefla & Zamasu.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by MoscoSama » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:27 am

ekrolo2 wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:Vegetto is the only BROKEN potara fusion in TORIYAMA's continuity.

Kefla was obscenely OP in the anime only
Kibitoshin wasn't anything
M Zamasu was only OP in the anime.


Maybe these guidebooks and (A*B) don't really hold up, who would have thought? :roll:
Vegetto only beat Boohan with SS, it's the anime that makes him much stronger as it did for Kefla & Zamasu.
He easily beat Boohan with SS, it was never a contest even in the manga whereas Kefla and Zamasu got stalemated by a single non fusion/non absorbed fighter in the manga

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sat Aug 18, 2018 10:31 am

MoscoSama wrote:
ekrolo2 wrote:
MoscoSama wrote:Vegetto is the only BROKEN potara fusion in TORIYAMA's continuity.

Kefla was obscenely OP in the anime only
Kibitoshin wasn't anything
M Zamasu was only OP in the anime.


Maybe these guidebooks and (A*B) don't really hold up, who would have thought? :roll:
Vegetto only beat Boohan with SS, it's the anime that makes him much stronger as it did for Kefla & Zamasu.
He easily beat Boohan with SS, it was never a contest even in the manga whereas Kefla and Zamasu got stalemated by a single non fusion/non absorbed fighter in the manga
Which is still nowhere near the wank the anime gave him where he was beating the crap out of Boohan in Base with ease, the same way Base Kefla got to beat on Goku as an SSGod even though he should be above a hypothetical SS3 Vegetto in that form. Wanking fusions is basically an anime tradition by this point.
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