Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

That's between BoG and FnF right? Then I think it's taking into account SSJG and Vegeta's should be at that point arriving at SSJB level. Going from memory here those episodes were a long time ago.

It is, it's six months after Vegeta went to train and four months before the battle with Frieza.

It would be highly unlikely they would be referring to Super Saiyan God because it was only around the time that Frieza came to Earth was when Goku and Vegeta were thrown into Whis' staff and Vegeta appeared to experience God Ki for the first time.

At least as far as I was always led to believe it was when they were in this realm was when Goku and Vegeta learned to become a Super Saiyan God on their own and then shortly afterward a Super Saiyan Blue for the first time.

[ekrolo2]

But that's not how Potara works. Potara is literally two battle powers multiplied by each other. Are you telling me that Caulifla is so weak compared to Kale that she contributed nothing, or barely anything to the Potara fusion? And if that's the case, wouldn't the supposed huge gap in power support the notion that Berserker Kale is far more powerful than people want to give her credit for? I mean, Berserker Kale crushed Freeza in a 1 v 1 fight and that was before her power grew even larger.

I also don't buy Freeza's statement that he could beat Kale if he was fighting seriously. If that was the case, he wouldn't have interfered when Kale was fighting SSJB Goku and broke his guard. Freeza knows Kale is potentially just as strong SSJB Goku, but just didn't want to admit he got by Kale. Most likely because she's a Saiyan. And Freeza's hates Saiyans.

Caulifla is way weaker than Kale. In fact, Kale might have the strongest Base form out of any Saiyan except Broly since her punches in that hurt more than SS Caulifla's did. They also mention in this chapter and the last one that Kale's power was ruining her body and you can tell from her performance, Caulifla essentially fused with damaged goods.

It's not elegant of an explanation at all but in comparison to other manga & anime instances it's not as egregious imo.

But Vados mentions in Chapter 38 that Kefla has the sheer power of Kale with the sense of battle of Caulifla. Surely that must mean Kefla has access of all of Kale's strength, without having to worry about burnout?

I mean, Vegeta was way weaker than Goku when they fused to fight Super Boo who had Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in him, yet when Goku and Vegeta fuse to become Vegeta, and Vegetto turns into a Super Saiyan, Vegetto crushes Super Boo. That couldn't have happened if Vegetto didn't have all of Goku and Vegeta's respective power. And that was despite the fact that Goku had SSJ3, which was extremely taxing form

Vegeta isn't weaker than Goku, Bobbidi unlocked his potential and made them equals in Base, SS and SS2, Goku only has an edge thanks to 3.

In the manga, the Saiyan girls are similarly comparable in power but not so in the manga. Kale is above SS1 tier fighters in Base as evidenced by her feats and Freeza's statements, their fusion here is closer to manga Merged Zamasu.

[LightBing]

That's between BoG and FnF right? Then I think it's taking into account SSJG and Vegeta's should be at that point arriving at SSJB level. Going from memory here those episodes were a long time ago.

It is, it's six months after Vegeta went to train and four months before the battle with Frieza.

It would be highly unlikely they would be referring to Super Saiyan God because it was only around the time that Frieza came to Earth was when Goku and Vegeta were thrown into Whis' staff and Vegeta appeared to experience God Ki for the first time.

At least as far as I was always led to believe it was when they were in this realm was when Goku and Vegeta learned to become a Super Saiyan God on their own and then shortly afterward a Super Saiyan Blue for the first time.

Oh, then it can only be referring to their power in a "non-God state" Can't see another logical answer.

[Lord Beerus]

Caulifla is way weaker than Kale. In fact, Kale might have the strongest Base form out of any Saiyan except Broly since her punches in that hurt more than SS Caulifla's did. They also mention in this chapter and the last one that Kale's power was ruining her body and you can tell from her performance, Caulifla essentially fused with damaged goods.

It's not elegant of an explanation at all but in comparison to other manga & anime instances it's not as egregious imo.

But Vados mentions in Chapter 38 that Kefla has the sheer power of Kale with the sense of battle of Caulifla. Surely that must mean Kefla has access of all of Kale's strength, without having to worry about burnout?

I mean, Vegeta was way weaker than Goku when they fused to fight Super Boo who had Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in him, yet when Goku and Vegeta fuse to become Vegeta, and Vegetto turns into a Super Saiyan, Vegetto crushes Super Boo. That couldn't have happened if Vegetto didn't have all of Goku and Vegeta's respective power. And that was despite the fact that Goku had SSJ3, which was extremely taxing form

Vegeta isn't weaker than Goku, Bobbidi unlocked his potential and made them equals in Base, SS and SS2, Goku only has an edge thanks to 3.

In the manga, the Saiyan girls are similarly comparable in power but not so in the manga. Kale is above SS1 tier fighters in Base as evidenced by her feats and Freeza's statements, their fusion here is closer to manga Merged Zamasu.

Exactly, Goku having SSJ3 and Vegeta not make Goku stronger than Vegeta by default.

And the manga never made it seem like Kale base form was far beyond Caulilfa's or Kale's. The most Kale could do in her base form was use her speed to hit Golden Freeza off guard. And those attacks had no really damage effect on Golden Freeza. And once Freeza knew what was going on, he flung Kale like a ragdoll.

[ekrolo2]

But Vados mentions in Chapter 38 that Kefla has the sheer power of Kale with the sense of battle of Caulifla. Surely that must mean Kefla has access of all of Kale's strength, without having to worry about burnout?

I mean, Vegeta was way weaker than Goku when they fused to fight Super Boo who had Goten, Trunks, Piccolo and Ultimate Gohan in him, yet when Goku and Vegeta fuse to become Vegeta, and Vegetto turns into a Super Saiyan, Vegetto crushes Super Boo. That couldn't have happened if Vegetto didn't have all of Goku and Vegeta's respective power. And that was despite the fact that Goku had SSJ3, which was extremely taxing form

Vegeta isn't weaker than Goku, Bobbidi unlocked his potential and made them equals in Base, SS and SS2, Goku only has an edge thanks to 3.

In the manga, the Saiyan girls are similarly comparable in power but not so in the manga. Kale is above SS1 tier fighters in Base as evidenced by her feats and Freeza's statements, their fusion here is closer to manga Merged Zamasu.

Exactly, Goku having SSJ3 and Vegeta not make Goku stronger than Vegeta by default.

And the manga never made it seem like Kale base form was far beyond Caulilfa's or Kale's. The most Kale could do in her base form was use her speed to hit Golden Freeza off guard. And those attacks had no really damage effect on Golden Freeza. And once Freeza knew what was going on, he flung Kale like a ragdoll.

Goku having SS3 doesn't change the fact he and Vegeta are equals in Base when they fuse into Vegetto. It's not like one was in 3 and the other in 2 when this happened to cause a disparity in power.

Kale was fast enough in Base to steal something from SS Cabba without him noticing, later on, Golden Freeza says her blows are more powerful than SS Caulifla.

[Lord Beerus]

Vegeta isn't weaker than Goku, Bobbidi unlocked his potential and made them equals in Base, SS and SS2, Goku only has an edge thanks to 3.

In the manga, the Saiyan girls are similarly comparable in power but not so in the manga. Kale is above SS1 tier fighters in Base as evidenced by her feats and Freeza's statements, their fusion here is closer to manga Merged Zamasu.

Exactly, Goku having SSJ3 and Vegeta not make Goku stronger than Vegeta by default.

And the manga never made it seem like Kale base form was far beyond Caulilfa's or Kale's. The most Kale could do in her base form was use her speed to hit Golden Freeza off guard. And those attacks had no really damage effect on Golden Freeza. And once Freeza knew what was going on, he flung Kale like a ragdoll.

Goku having SS3 doesn't change the fact he and Vegeta are equals in Base when they fuse into Vegetto. It's not like one was in 3 and the other in 2 when this happened to cause a disparity in power.

Kale was fast enough in Base to steal something from SS Cabba without him noticing, later on, Golden Freeza says her blows are more powerful than SS Caulifla.

Just re-read Chapter 37 and you're right. Freeza does state that Kale in his base form does pack more of punch that Caulifla's ever did. My mistake.

But Potara is still basically the sum of all parts. If Caulifla and Kale fused while Berserker Kale was gassing out, then SSJ Kefla should have been getting weaker the more she fought but that's never implied to be the case. In fact, Vados states that SSJ Kefla may be unmatched on the battlefield right after she fuses.

[ekrolo2]

But Potara is still basically the sum of all parts. If Caulifla and Kale fused while Berserker Kale was gassing out, then SSJ Kefla should have been getting weaker the more she fought but that's never implied to be the case. In fact, Vados states that SSJ Kefla may be unmatched on the battlefield right after she fuses.

Kale was getting stronger while also wrecking her body because she had no self control to regulate it. By the time this self control comes in the form of Kefla, Kale herself is almost passed out.

[TheSaiyanGod]

In this chapter, Kuririn basically confirmed that neither Gohan, Kefla or Kale are Blue tier.

Kuririn questioned whether Gohan could SURPASS Goku if he continued training, that is, this has not yet happened. Then Gohan, who is inferior to Goku, drew with Kefla, who is stronger than Kale.

So, Goku> Gohan = Kefla> Kale, even if it does not make much sense

[Lord Beerus]

But Potara is still basically the sum of all parts. If Caulifla and Kale fused while Berserker Kale was gassing out, then SSJ Kefla should have been getting weaker the more she fought but that's never implied to be the case. In fact, Vados states that SSJ Kefla may be unmatched on the battlefield right after she fuses.

Kale was getting stronger while also wrecking her body because she had no self control to regulate it. By the time this self control comes in the form of Kefla, Kale herself is almost passed out.

They really shouldn't have bothered with having Kelfa in the manga. It more more hassle than what it was worth.

I still can't wrap my head around: Jiren > SSJB Goku > Gohan > Berserker Kale > Golden Freeza > Gohan > SSJ Kefla

[ekrolo2]

But Potara is still basically the sum of all parts. If Caulifla and Kale fused while Berserker Kale was gassing out, then SSJ Kefla should have been getting weaker the more she fought but that's never implied to be the case. In fact, Vados states that SSJ Kefla may be unmatched on the battlefield right after she fuses.

Kale was getting stronger while also wrecking her body because she had no self control to regulate it. By the time this self control comes in the form of Kefla, Kale herself is almost passed out.

They really shouldn't have bothered with having Kelfa in the manga. It more more hassle than what it was worth.

I still can't wrap my head around: Jiren > SSJB Goku > Gohan > Berserker Kale > Golden Freeza > Gohan > SSJ Kefla

Yeah, even with the context here her inclusion is a hastle. It's weirdly opposed to the anime where they wank her to hell

[Lord Beerus]

Kale was getting stronger while also wrecking her body because she had no self control to regulate it. By the time this self control comes in the form of Kefla, Kale herself is almost passed out.

They really shouldn't have bothered with having Kelfa in the manga. It more more hassle than what it was worth.

I still can't wrap my head around: Jiren > SSJB Goku > Gohan > Berserker Kale > Golden Freeza > Gohan > SSJ Kefla

Yeah, even with the context here her inclusion is a hastle. It's weirdly opposed to the anime where they wank her to hell

I honestly didn't mind how she was handled in the anime. She was a major threat, but it was still established that on an even playing field, and not taking into account Ultra Instinct, there was every chance Goku would have beaten her.

[RandomGuy96]

In this chapter, Kuririn basically confirmed that neither Gohan, Kefla or Kale are Blue tier.

Kuririn questioned whether Gohan could SURPASS Goku if he continued training, that is, this has not yet happened. Then Gohan, who is inferior to Goku, drew with Kefla, who is stronger than Kale.

So, Goku> Gohan = Kefla> Kale, even if it does not make much sense

How exactly would he know? He can't sense god ki and has no grounds for comparison between Goku and Gohan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Toyotaro seems to have done a lot to weaken Kefla, whilst in the anime Kefla simply received the same kind of huge boost that Potara Fusions like Vegito receive and thus was much stronger.

That really seems to be the approach of Toyotaro when it comes to these major differences in power-rankings between the anime and manga; where the anime staff play up huge power boosts, like fusion and Kaio-ken, Toyotaro uses his writing to weaken characters, such as burning through immense stamina.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

He shouldn't but it wouldn't really be any surprise at all for Super Saiyan Blue, Perfected even, to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. That's what we all would have figured anyway.

Golden Frieza said he could handle Super Saiyan Kale. That was before she powered up further but nothing specifically implies that wouldn't still apply afterward.

Vados also made it seem as though Super Saiyan Kefla was no stronger than Super Saiyan Kale and that she was just in control now.

So I suppose Super Saiyan Blue Goku could have beaten Super Saiyan Kale if he wanted to.

Piccolo said Gohan is a must if they want to win the tournament, so Goku probably needs PSSJB to surpass Gohan, or to at least be able to stomp him.

True, but Freeza pretty much shat a brick when Kale powered up. She definitely surpassed him there.

When did Vados imply that? The fact she even said Kefla was outmatched in the battlefield implies otherwise.

So all in all, the only version of Kale Goku could've beaten was Initial LSSJ Kale, and he'd have to put a lot of effort on that.

[dragon boss z]

He shouldn't but it wouldn't really be any surprise at all for Super Saiyan Blue, Perfected even, to be stronger than Ultimate Gohan. That's what we all would have figured anyway.
Golden Frieza said he could handle Super Saiyan Kale. That was before she powered up further but nothing specifically implies that wouldn't still apply afterward.
Vados also made it seem as though Super Saiyan Kefla was no stronger than Super Saiyan Kale and that she was just in control now.
So I suppose Super Saiyan Blue Goku could have beaten Super Saiyan Kale if he wanted to.

Piccolo said Gohan is a must if they want to win the tournament, so Goku probably needs PSSJB to surpass Gohan, or to at least be able to stomp him.
True, but Freeza pretty much shat a brick when Kale powered up. She definitely surpassed him there.
When did Vados imply that? The fact she even said Kefla was outmatched in the battlefield implies otherwise.
So all in all, the only version of Kale Goku could've beaten was Initial LSSJ Kale, and he'd have to put a lot of effort on that.

Nah, both Golden Frieza and SSB Goku could have beaten any version of Kale and I think that was made pretty clear. However Kale's power did probably surpass theirs, it was shown that her moves were predictable, she wasn't that fast, and her body was being destroyed from it. Goku tried to power up in a similar way this chapter and Jiren said it was a dumb move and even compared it to Kale. Kale was also losing tot he fodder pride troopers who ssj Goku was fighting pretty well against. However Kefla kept Kale's power without the strain and other downsides so logically she should be above Golden Frieza and SSB Goku in pretty much every way, but now it seems like she isn't so idk about that part, but for Kale by herself, powerwise she is Blue tier, but fighting ability wise she is much lower. It's like the opposite of how Roshi beat that pride trooper this chapter even though he was weaker.

[GreatSaiyaman123]

Nah, both Golden Frieza and SSB Goku could have beaten any version of Kale and I think that was made pretty clear. However Kale's power did probably surpass theirs, it was shown that her moves were predictable, she wasn't that fast, and her body was being destroyed from it. Goku tried to power up in a similar way this chapter and Jiren said it was a dumb move and even compared it to Kale. Kale was also losing tot he fodder pride troopers who ssj Goku was fighting pretty well against. However Kefla kept Kale's power without the strain and other downsides so logically she should be above Golden Frieza and SSB Goku in pretty much every way, but now it seems like she isn't so idk about that part, but for Kale by herself, powerwise she is Blue tier, but fighting ability wise she is much lower. It's like the opposite of how Roshi beat that pride trooper this chapter even though he was weaker.

You're right. I got carried away when i said Goku couldn't beat Kale. The Pride Troopers would've ringed her out if weren't by Cabba. She's still up there with (Perfected?) SSJB Goku and Golden Freeza wise, though.

[PFM18]

In this chapter, Kuririn basically confirmed that neither Gohan, Kefla or Kale are Blue tier.

Kuririn questioned whether Gohan could SURPASS Goku if he continued training, that is, this has not yet happened. Then Gohan, who is inferior to Goku, drew with Kefla, who is stronger than Kale.

So, Goku> Gohan = Kefla> Kale, even if it does not make much sense

The fact that Kale could give Goku as much trouble as she did, fuse with Caulifla, and lose to Gohan makes it entirely nonsensical for Goku to still be stronger than Gohan. Either Kale gained no power upon fusing with Caulifla and Goku was suppressed against Kale, or Kururin was just totally wrong in his statement. Neither of these possibilities actually make any sense whatsoever.

Potara fusion is meant to literally make you several fold stronger and here we have Kefla who apparently gained no power from fusing. Frankly, I think Gohan should reasonably be stronger than Goku if he were able to fight evenly with Kefla who is made up of Kale who was already Blue tier.

Kale was getting stronger while also wrecking her body because she had no self control to regulate it. By the time this self control comes in the form of Kefla, Kale herself is almost passed out.

They really shouldn't have bothered with having Kelfa in the manga. It more more hassle than what it was worth.

I still can't wrap my head around: Jiren > SSJB Goku > Gohan > Berserker Kale > Golden Freeza > Gohan > SSJ Kefla

Yeah, even with the context here her inclusion is a hastle. It's weirdly opposed to the anime where they wank her to hell

They don't "wank her to hell" they properly portrayed potara fusion as an extremely potent technique that yields a warrior several fold stronger than the individual.

[ZombieVito]

The fact that Kale could give Goku as much trouble as she did, fuse with Caulifla, and lose to Gohan makes it entirely nonsensical for Goku to still be stronger than Gohan. Either Kale gained no power upon fusing with Caulifla and Goku was suppressed against Kale, or Kururin was just totally wrong in his statement. Neither of these possibilities actually make any sense whatsoever.

Potara fusion is meant to literally make you several fold stronger and here we have Kefla who apparently gained no power from fusing. Frankly, I think Gohan should reasonably be stronger than Goku if he were able to fight evenly with Kefla who is made up of Kale who was already Blue tier.

As little as that makes sense, that's what Vados said. Kefla = Kale.

[PFM18]

The fact that Kale could give Goku as much trouble as she did, fuse with Caulifla, and lose to Gohan makes it entirely nonsensical for Goku to still be stronger than Gohan. Either Kale gained no power upon fusing with Caulifla and Goku was suppressed against Kale, or Kururin was just totally wrong in his statement. Neither of these possibilities actually make any sense whatsoever.

Potara fusion is meant to literally make you several fold stronger and here we have Kefla who apparently gained no power from fusing. Frankly, I think Gohan should reasonably be stronger than Goku if he were able to fight evenly with Kefla who is made up of Kale who was already Blue tier.

As little as that makes sense, that's what Vados said. Kefla = Kale.

I cannot emphasize enough how little this would make sense. In every other fusion we have seen the corresponding base form is stronger than the individual's highest output they can put out. Base Kefla should be stronger than Kale and SSJ Kefla should be at least 50x stronger than that, rendering Goku an ant in comparison to Gohan. Instead, we have Gohan matching up with Kefla and Kururin still saying he is weaker than Goku.(Even though Kururin can't even fucking sense Goku.)

[ssj3kakarot]

Unfortunately, it is then followed by Roshi dodging Jirens attack. No point in trying to make sense if Kefla is as strong as X, or Gohan is stronger than Goku, etc. Welcome to Willy Wonkas everyone!

I'm not biased to the manga or the anime, but this is the rock bottom for Db power-wtf moments.

I'd also like to say, I really enjoyed the concept of giving Roshi an extremely important roll in the show. But not at the expense that chapter 39 did.