Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Noah]

But, the difference is that Whis is way more credible than Piccolo, he knows what Ultra Instinct is and is an expert regarding God Ki.

Yes correct but like i said it cant be always whis. Piccolo needs screentime his voice actor needs to get paid etc. You really think audience (mostly kids) are going to question if a character is reliable?

Why not? They may interpret that not everything said by a character is an undeniable truth

[HeroR]

Well, for one, he was trying to directly attack Jiren, and Dyspo had caught himself in a bind trying to fight him off, so he was provoked to action, and he won easily, using the force of the wind from his fist.

Hit and Goku were the only fighters in the tournament that Jiren had been monitoring.

Belmond told Jiren to stop conserving his strength, go after Son Goku first, because he was one of, if not the most capable fighter on the field, and ignore all the weaklings.

Yet, he didn't ignore Hit, he asked what Hit wanted because he didn't think Hit would attack him after he easily beat Goku. He basically wondered why Hit was attacking him since he thought Hit would know he couldn't beat him in a fight. However, the fact he still obliged to fight Hit and for considerable period as wel, shows that he thought Hit was at the very least a capable opponent.

Goku tried to direct attack Jiren and didn't care when Toppo blindsided him.

Jiren has been monitoring the entire tournament, not just Hit and Goku.

Yeah, but Belmond never told to attack anyone else after Goku. Hit just butted in, for the lack of better words.

He didn't ignore Hit for the same reason he decided not to ignore Kale and Maji Kayo. He was there, get rid of him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

- If it's just about the Genki Dama's raw energy used in Jiren, so it does not surpass the power of the Goku SSB KK X20 (do you think a little of the energy of just 8 people would do it?).
Really, she was the Goku's trump card (when not even the Kaio-ken x20 work), but we know that this technique works very well in more powerful enemies the user (Goku SSJ was able to push the Genki Dama against Boo , even though Boo himself was superior to Goku SSJ3). Even Gohan was surprised when Jiren was repelling the technique on EP 109, saying something like '' Can he push even with my father having enough energy? ''
Indicating that even Jiren being much stronger than Goku, it should be difficult for him to push the Genki Dama from a fully recovered Goku

- Whis did not necessarily talk about just Kefla having the same amount of energy as the Genki Dama. He said that she incited Goku to use the UI again, as Genki Dama did (the context of this may be that she had the power / ability to do something that only Genki Dama had done, not having exactly as much energy as this technique)

- When Whis compares Genki Dama to Kefla, U6's Saiyajin had not increased its power and was in the same situation as EP 115 when it was weaker than Goku SSB KK tired.
So speaking is like saying that Goku SSB KK also has an energy comparable to that of Genki Dama, which is pretty weird (unless you consider another context for the Whis speech, which I quoted above, would be that Kefla was not compared to Genki Dama in quantity of Ki but in the ability to make Goku use the UI, which makes much more sense).

- - Piccolo just said that she overcame the power used by Goku ''a little while ago'', probably referring to his most recent fight in which he showed his power (EP 115). So she just overcame a tired Kaioken SSB

Why would a Spirit Bomb made to beat Jiren be weaker than a form that Jiren trashed?

Whis said that Kelfia's power rivaled the Spirit Bomb Goku's bathe in. You know, the one that exploded in his face after being compressed.

She was that strong when he kicked Goku, not after that moment.

He could also mean Goku at his peak.

And you think that a Genki Dama with the energy of 8 people overcomes the power of Goku SSB KK x20? That's why it makes more sense to say that the power of Kefla rivals that of Genki Dama in forcing Goku to activate the UI, not in amount of energy.

And yes, when Whis compared Kefla to the Genki Dama, he was talking about Kefla in SSJ (the same one that got his arms shaking with just one punch from Goku SSB KK). This further reinforces the fact that when Whis talks about the Genki Dama, he was not referring to the amount of energy (after all, Goku SSB KK would have overtaken the power of this technique as well). And Piccolo's speech is ambiguous, but he was talking about a more recent fact, probably referring to EP 115

[HeroR]

And you think that a Genki Dama with the energy of 8 people overcomes the power of Goku SSB KK x20? That's why it makes more sense to say that the power of Kefla rivals that of Genki Dama in forcing Goku to activate the UI, not in amount of energy.

And yes, when Whis compared Kefla to the Genki Dama, he was talking about Kefla in SSJ (the same one that got his arms shaking with just one punch from Goku SSB KK). This further reinforces the fact that when Whis talks about the Genki Dama, he was not referring to the amount of energy (after all, Goku SSB KK would have overtaken the power of this technique as well). And Piccolo's speech is ambiguous, but he was talking about a more recent fact, probably referring to EP 115

The Spirit Bomb's energy isn't limited by the number of people, especially given who gave energy to it. Like think about this, the energy of a bunch of Earthling whose power level only reach around 5 killed Kid Buu, and it wasn't noted by Goku that a nice chuck of the Spirit Bomb came from Gohan's group. In the Future Trunks Saga, a Spirit Bomb merged with a sword cut Merged Zamasu in half. And Whis specifically said the Spirit Bomb Goku 'bathe' in, meaning the Spirit Bomb going off in his face. And again, why would Goku think a Spirit Bomb weaker than him could beat Jiren? That's like saying the Spirit Bomb in the Freeza Saga was weaker than Kaioken x20 Goku.

The Spirit Bomb is stronger than Kaiokon Blue x20 Goku since Goku expect it to beat Jiren and was shocked that Jiren pushed it back. By the logic you're using, the Spirit Bomb couldn't even beat Goku himself, and Goku at his best could do shit to Jiren.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Absorbing energy in DB has always resulted in an exponensial boost, not just addition. The spirit bomb is FAR stronger than just adding the people who gave energy to it.

[JazzMazz]

Absorbing energy in DB has always resulted in an exponensial boost, not just addition. The spirit bomb is FAR stronger than just adding the people who gave energy to it.

Can I just ask, when have people, besides the androids absorbed the energy from an attack into themselves to trigger a power up?

Because that sounds like some movie 7 shite or something or something GT did.

[HeroR]

Absorbing energy in DB has always resulted in an exponensial boost, not just addition. The spirit bomb is FAR stronger than just adding the people who gave energy to it.

Can I just ask, when have people, besides the androids absorbed the energy from an attack into themselves to trigger a power up?

Because that sounds like some movie 7 shite or something or something GT did.

Super Saiyan God ritual, but that was very specific and it wasn't just the Saiyans pumping ki into Goku. And that still wouldn't account for a Spirit Bomb made from mostly fodder human killing Kid Buu no matter the numbers. Heck the power of plants and animals nearly killed Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. And that was only a little energy.

[JazzMazz]

Absorbing energy in DB has always resulted in an exponensial boost, not just addition. The spirit bomb is FAR stronger than just adding the people who gave energy to it.

Can I just ask, when have people, besides the androids absorbed the energy from an attack into themselves to trigger a power up?

Because that sounds like some movie 7 shite or something or something GT did.

Super Saiyan God ritual, but that was very specific and it wasn't just the Saiyans pumping ki into Goku. And that still wouldn't account for a Spirit Bomb made from mostly fodder human killing Kid Buu no matter the numbers. Heck the power of plants and animals nearly killed Vegeta in the Saiyan Saga. And that was only a little energy.

Absorbing energy through willing, and in special circumstances, unwilling transaction isn't something necessarily new to the show. But absorbing an attack into themselves to act as a power source isn't something that has happened in Supers canon continuity. Are there any examples of that sort of thing happening earlier in the franchise?

[Kenneth La Torre]

The last arc made trunks absorb a spirit bomb, and kill an extremely powerful being who gave ssb vegito a good fight. And the energy came from a couple of humans and worn out saiyans in their base forms. Thats an example.

[JazzMazz]

The last arc made trunks absorb a spirit bomb, and kill an extremely powerful being who gave ssb vegito a good fight. And the energy came from a couple of humans and worn out saiyans in their base forms. Thats an example.

Yeah, but thats still a willing transaction and a mindely ass-pullish technique.

How did Goku absorb the power of an exploding spirit bomb? Its not a person, its an attack, with no will of its own, so how did Goku absorb it into himself?

[Kenneth La Torre]

The last arc made trunks absorb a spirit bomb, and kill an extremely powerful being who gave ssb vegito a good fight. And the energy came from a couple of humans and worn out saiyans in their base forms. Thats an example.

Yeah, but thats still a willing transaction and a mindely ass-pullish technique.

How did Goku absorb the power of an exploding spirit bomb? Its not a person, its an attack, with no will of its own, so how did Goku absorb it into himself?

Ask the creators. As far as i know, he absorbed it into himself because he could and did. Thats as much as an explanation as anyone can give you now. The show has been filled with asspulls from the very beginning. People should be getting used to them by now.

[Hugo Boss]

The context from Piccolo states that Goku's power up forced Kefla to power up. Then he states how great Kefla's power is and says it may have passed Goku's former level. Then he says, "BUT IF" Kefla's power up could draw Goku's power out FURTHER. This means Goku was at a disadvantage in his former UI level "BUT" Piccolo says that could change if Goku could draw more power by being incited by Keflas power up! This proves Piccolo wasn't talking about BlueKK Goku cause there would be no need for him to increase his power if Kefla was only stronger than KK Blue Goku

Piccolo is saying in other words that if Kefla’s power up from before (Super Saiyan) could draw out Goku’s power (Ultra Instinct), then SS2 Kafla can possibly make Goku even more powerful (which wasn’t necessary). It isn’t implied Kafla’s power surpassed Ultra Instinct in any way. The idea here is just to talk about the neverending circle of power-ups that Goku and Kafla were demonstrating through the whole fight and to be fair who read the spoilers beforehand already knew this.

And those never ending power ups were compared to Goku's former UI level. Otherwise Piccolo wouldn't need to say UI Goku needs to respond to Kefla's power by drawing out more power cause she surpassed his former UI level. It's as simple as pie.

I wouldn’t be so sure of that for two reasons. First, in the episode before, SS Kafla was clearly cornered by Blue with kaioken and had to figure out a way to counter that power. I don’t buy that her power suddenly skyrocketed to genkidama’s level just because she used a tatic to beat Blue. If we are talking about effect, so I agree Kafla affected Goku in the same way the genkidama did. Second, Goku didn’t need to power-up further to beat SS2 Kafla. Though they were both very confident in victory, Goku analized the situation properly and proved to be the best using Ultra Instinct.

[TheSaiyanGod]

And you think that a Genki Dama with the energy of 8 people overcomes the power of Goku SSB KK x20? That's why it makes more sense to say that the power of Kefla rivals that of Genki Dama in forcing Goku to activate the UI, not in amount of energy.

And yes, when Whis compared Kefla to the Genki Dama, he was talking about Kefla in SSJ (the same one that got his arms shaking with just one punch from Goku SSB KK). This further reinforces the fact that when Whis talks about the Genki Dama, he was not referring to the amount of energy (after all, Goku SSB KK would have overtaken the power of this technique as well). And Piccolo's speech is ambiguous, but he was talking about a more recent fact, probably referring to EP 115

The Spirit Bomb's energy isn't limited by the number of people, especially given who gave energy to it. Like think about this, the energy of a bunch of Earthling whose power level only reach around 5 killed Kid Buu, and it wasn't noted by Goku that a nice chuck of the Spirit Bomb came from Gohan's group. In the Future Trunks Saga, a Spirit Bomb merged with a sword cut Merged Zamasu in half. And Whis specifically said the Spirit Bomb Goku 'bathe' in, meaning the Spirit Bomb going off in his face. And again, why would Goku think a Spirit Bomb weaker than him could beat Jiren? That's like saying the Spirit Bomb in the Freeza Saga was weaker than Kaioken x20 Goku.

The Spirit Bomb is stronger than Kaiokon Blue x20 Goku since Goku expect it to beat Jiren and was shocked that Jiren pushed it back. By the logic you're using, the Spirit Bomb couldn't even beat Goku himself, and Goku at his best could do shit to Jiren.

So if you believe that, you should also believe that Goku SSB KK> Genki Dama.

After all, after Kefla SSJ was almost defeated by Goku SSB KK, she did not increase her Ki in no time (only when she turned into SSJ2).
So if we consider that the Whis speech context referred to the amount of energy of Genki Dama and Kefla SSJ (which at that time was less than that of Blue Kaioken and rivaled Blue), then you have to consider that even tired Goku SSB has an energy comparable to this technique.

What does NO SENSE.
So a much more plausible context is to consider that Kefla does not have an amount of energy comparable to that of the Genki Dama, but she did something that only the Genki Dama herself had shown (making Goku activate the UI). This becomes clear when Whis specifies '' the Genki Dama that Goku bathed in ''. That is, the GK that made it activate the UI (just like Kefla).
But that also does not mean that Kefla is superior to SSB KK x20 just because he did something that only GK had done. She did it against a TIRED Goku and that was only using the SSK KK.

[ZombieVito]

I wouldn’t be so sure of that for two reasons. First, in the episode before, SS Kafla was clearly cornered by Blue with kaioken and had to figure out a way to counter that power. I don’t buy that her power suddenly skyrocketed to genkidama’s level just because she used a tatic to beat Blue. If we are talking about effect, so I agree Kafla affected Goku in the same way the genkidama did. Second, Goku didn’t need to power-up further to beat SS2 Kafla. Though they were both very confident in victory, Goku analized the situation properly and proved to be the best using Ultra Instinct.

When she beat Goku she said she wanted to continue fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out because of how she said it.

There's also Goku getting a bigger aura while using Kaioken. Maybe he used a higher one there.

[HeroR]

So if you believe that, you should also believe that Goku SSB KK> Genki Dama.

After all, after Kefla SSJ was almost defeated by Goku SSB KK, she did not increase her Ki in no time (only when she turned into SSJ2).
So if we consider that the Whis speech context referred to the amount of energy of Genki Dama and Kefla SSJ (which at that time was less than that of Blue Kaioken and rivaled Blue), then you have to consider that even tired Goku SSB has an energy comparable to this technique.

What does NO SENSE.
So a much more plausible context is to consider that Kefla does not have an amount of energy comparable to that of the Genki Dama, but she did something that only the Genki Dama herself had shown (making Goku activate the UI). This becomes clear when Whis specifies '' the Genki Dama that Goku bathed in ''. That is, the GK that made it activate the UI (just like Kefla).
But that also does not mean that Kefla is superior to SSB KK x20 just because he did something that only GK had done. She did it against a TIRED Goku and that was only using the SSK KK.

Yes, because Goku as Blue Kaioken x20 couldn't do anything against Jiren, so it makes no sense for Goku's trump card to be weaker than him at his best.

Kefla wasn't almost defeated. She got hit by Goku, got back up, and the floored him.

Thee is no way you can work around the Spirit Bomb being weaker than Goku at his peak since there would be no point making a Spirit Bomb that couldn't beat Goku when Jiren smashed Goku at his very best. And Whis' quote wasn't "but she did something that only the Genki Dama herself had shown (making Goku activate the UI)". This is what Whis said:

"Kefla's power rivaled the power of the Spirit Bomb he bathed in".

So Whis is talking about power, not just Kefla activating UI like the Spirit Bomb. Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So if you believe that, you should also believe that Goku SSB KK> Genki Dama.

After all, after Kefla SSJ was almost defeated by Goku SSB KK, she did not increase her Ki in no time (only when she turned into SSJ2).
So if we consider that the Whis speech context referred to the amount of energy of Genki Dama and Kefla SSJ (which at that time was less than that of Blue Kaioken and rivaled Blue), then you have to consider that even tired Goku SSB has an energy comparable to this technique.

What does NO SENSE.
So a much more plausible context is to consider that Kefla does not have an amount of energy comparable to that of the Genki Dama, but she did something that only the Genki Dama herself had shown (making Goku activate the UI). This becomes clear when Whis specifies '' the Genki Dama that Goku bathed in ''. That is, the GK that made it activate the UI (just like Kefla).
But that also does not mean that Kefla is superior to SSB KK x20 just because he did something that only GK had done. She did it against a TIRED Goku and that was only using the SSK KK.

Yes, because Goku as Blue Kaioken x20 couldn't do anything against Jiren, so it makes no sense for Goku's trump card to be weaker than him at his best.

Kefla wasn't almost defeated. She got hit by Goku, got back up, and the floored him.

Thee is no way you can work around the Spirit Bomb being weaker than Goku at his peak since there would be no point making a Spirit Bomb that couldn't beat Goku when Jiren smashed Goku at his very best. And Whis' quote wasn't "but she did something that only the Genki Dama herself had shown (making Goku activate the UI)". This is what Whis said:

"Kefla's power rivaled the power of the Spirit Bomb he bathed in".

So Whis is talking about power, not just Kefla activating UI like the Spirit Bomb. Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.

You need to complete the sentence ...
Whis says after that:

'' It incited Goku-san ... allowing him to break through another of his self-limiting shells ''

That is, the energy of Kefla as SSJ rivals that of Genki Dama, causing Goku to break its limits again. Again, the context of this may be that Kefla's energy only prompted Goku to use the UI, not necessarily having the same amount of power as the Genki Dama.
If you want to consider that Kefla SSJ = Genki Dama> SSB KK x20, this gets even more confusing because you also need to consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ = Goku SSB (tired).
After all, Kefla SSJ stood trembling after only ONE punch from Blue KK.
And was shaken to get up, injured, after being hit in full by another punch of the Blue KK, proving to be much weaker

But if you want to use the context of the amount of energy, it still does not prove that Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20
It was said that the SSB rivals the gods, and yet he proved to be much more than 20x weaker than a God of Destruction. If it were the same with Kefla then that would fit in with Piccolo's speech (that she overcame Goku a 'little while ago', in EP 115, a tired SSB KK)

[HeroR]

You need to complete the sentence ...
Whis says after that:

'' It incited Goku-san ... allowing him to break through another of his self-limiting shells ''

That is, the energy of Kefla as SSJ rivals that of Genki Dama, causing Goku to break its limits again. Again, the context of this may be that Kefla's energy only prompted Goku to use the UI, not necessarily having the same amount of power as the Genki Dama.
If you want to consider that Kefla SSJ = Genki Dama> SSB KK x20, this gets even more confusing because you also need to consider that Goku SSB KK (tired)> Kefla SSJ = Goku SSB (tired).
After all, Kefla SSJ stood trembling after only ONE punch from Blue KK.
And was shaken to get up, injured, after being hit in full by another punch of the Blue KK, proving to be much weaker

But if you want to use the context of the amount of energy, it still does not prove that Kefla SSJ> Goku SSB KK x20
It was said that the SSB rivals the gods, and yet he proved to be much more than 20x weaker than a God of Destruction. If it were the same with Kefla then that would fit in with Piccolo's speech (that she overcame Goku a 'little while ago', in EP 115, a tired SSB KK)

The context is that Kefla's power rivaled the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed Goku and trigger his UI, not that only Kefla's energy prompted the changed. Whis was referencing her overall strength. This is what the show is telling us.

She trembled for a moment and then took Goku down in one kick. And Kefla even said she wanted to fight Goku longer, indicting that she wasn't even going all out at that moment. She also wasn't that injured since she was literally fine in the next second.

I have already addressed that in my last post:

Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.


The reason why, she wasn't compared to 'full powered, healthy Blue Kaioken x20 Goku', but a Spirit Bomb that was supposed to beat Jiren.

[Hugo Boss]

I wouldn’t be so sure of that for two reasons. First, in the episode before, SS Kafla was clearly cornered by Blue with kaioken and had to figure out a way to counter that power. I don’t buy that her power suddenly skyrocketed to genkidama’s level just because she used a tatic to beat Blue. If we are talking about effect, so I agree Kafla affected Goku in the same way the genkidama did. Second, Goku didn’t need to power-up further to beat SS2 Kafla. Though they were both very confident in victory, Goku analized the situation properly and proved to be the best using Ultra Instinct.

When she beat Goku she said she wanted to continue fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out because of how she said it.

There's also Goku getting a bigger aura while using Kaioken. Maybe he used a higher one there.

Of course, she still had SS2 hidden. When I say kaioken I say any kaioken.

The context is that Kefla's power rivaled the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed Goku and trigger his UI, not that only Kefla's energy prompted the changed. Whis was referencing her overall strength. This is what the show is telling us.

As you recall, Super Saiyan Blue is also said to rival the power of Gods of Destruction. I think I never saw anyone claiming they are equally powerful at this point, so I don’t understand why it should be different for Kefla.

[HeroR]

I wouldn’t be so sure of that for two reasons. First, in the episode before, SS Kafla was clearly cornered by Blue with kaioken and had to figure out a way to counter that power. I don’t buy that her power suddenly skyrocketed to genkidama’s level just because she used a tatic to beat Blue. If we are talking about effect, so I agree Kafla affected Goku in the same way the genkidama did. Second, Goku didn’t need to power-up further to beat SS2 Kafla. Though they were both very confident in victory, Goku analized the situation properly and proved to be the best using Ultra Instinct.

When she beat Goku she said she wanted to continue fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out because of how she said it.

There's also Goku getting a bigger aura while using Kaioken. Maybe he used a higher one there.

Of course, she still had SS2 hidden. When I say kaioken I say any kaioken.

The context is that Kefla's power rivaled the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed Goku and trigger his UI, not that only Kefla's energy prompted the changed. Whis was referencing her overall strength. This is what the show is telling us.

As you recall, Super Saiyan Blue is also said to rival the power of Gods of Destruction. I think I never saw anyone claiming they are equally powerful at this point, so I don’t understand why it should be different for Kefla.

I literally addressed this twice:

Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.


The reason why, she wasn't compared to 'full powered, healthy Blue Kaioken x20 Goku', but a Spirit Bomb that was supposed to beat Jiren.

[Hugo Boss]

When she beat Goku she said she wanted to continue fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out because of how she said it.

There's also Goku getting a bigger aura while using Kaioken. Maybe he used a higher one there.

Of course, she still had SS2 hidden. When I say kaioken I say any kaioken.

The context is that Kefla's power rivaled the Spirit Bomb that nearly killed Goku and trigger his UI, not that only Kefla's energy prompted the changed. Whis was referencing her overall strength. This is what the show is telling us.

As you recall, Super Saiyan Blue is also said to rival the power of Gods of Destruction. I think I never saw anyone claiming they are equally powerful at this point, so I don’t understand why it should be different for Kefla.

I literally addressed this twice:

Even if we say she was weaker than the Spirit Bomb in pure power since Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan was called a form that rivaled the gods while still being well below them, that still surpassed Goku's level as a Blue Kaioken x20.


The reason why, she wasn't compared to 'full powered, healthy Blue Kaioken x20 Goku', but a Spirit Bomb that was supposed to beat Jiren.

You are saying Kefla is closer to the genkidama than Blue is close to the Gods of Destruction, using literally the same reason (rivalry).