Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[wolflonnie]

List:

[spoiler]- Zeno
- Grand Priest
- Angels
- Jiren
- UI Goku
- SSB Vegetto / Stronger Hakaishins
- Merged Zamasu (Half Corrupted) / Weaker Hakaishins
- Possible range of SSG Vegetto
- Goku SSB KKx20 / Possible range of SS3 Vegetto
- Initial Merged Zamasu / Goku SSB KKx10 / Possible range of SS2 Vegetto
- Toppo / SSB Vegeta / True Golden Frieza / Goku SSB KKx2-5 / Possible range of SS Vegetto
- SSR Goku Black / Controlled SSBerserk Kefla / Possible range of Base Vegetto
- SSB Goku
- SSIKari Trunks
- Hit
- Base Kefla
- SSG Goku
- Controlled SSBerserk Kale
- SSBerserk Kale
- Dyspo / Android 17
- Ultimate Gohan
- SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu
- SS2 Vegeta / Final Form Frieza
- Piccolo / SS2 Goku / SS2 Gohan / SS2 Trunks / SS2 Caulifla / Present Zamasu
- SS2 Cabba
- Majin Buu / Final Form Frost
- Super Saiyans / Android 18 / Ribrianne
- Base Saiyans

In order for Vegetto to be this strong (as well as the other characters), I'll assume base Saiyans aren't that far from Majin Buu. Android 18 got stronger as well... somehow.[/spoiler]

Why do you think SSB Goku and Hit are so weak?

SSB Goku I like to think is weaker than SSB Vegeta.
He couldn't deal with SSR Goku Black, who has improved one more time, and I don't think he has reached that level yet. He's very very close to the improved SSR Goku Black and SSB Vegeta, but he has to go KK to close and surpass the gap.
Just my interpretation/headcanon though.

Hit had some trouble with Dyspo, whom:

1) Had trouble against SSG Goku
2) Can't deal, for some reasons, with Final Form Frieza.

Hit's power is kinda inconsistent. He seems very sturdy and capable but, in terms of actual power, he's just around SSB tier.

[Doctor.]

Since everyone is making tier lists:

[spoiler]Zeno / Future Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
UI Goku / Jiren
SSB Vegetto / Gods of Destruction / Goo Zamasu
Kaioken x20 Goku
Kaioken x10 Goku / Halo Zamasu

SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Freeza
Berserker Kafla / SSI Trunks / Hit / Toppo / SSR Black

SSG Goku / Freeza / Base Kafla / Base Black / Android #17 / Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo / Maji Kayo

SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu / Obuni
Berserker Kale / Kunshi (?) / Majin Boo

SS2 Goku / SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Caulifla / SS2 Cabba / SS2 Gohan
Piccolo / Present Zamasu

SS1 Goku / SS1 Vegeta / Monna / Magetta
SS1 Caulifla / SS1 Cabba / SS1 Gohan
Lavenda / Basil / Bergamo / Android 18 / Kahseral / Frost

Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Shosa / Majora
Jimizu / Sankaku / Su Roas / Ribrianne / Ganos (?)
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba / Base Gohan
Kuririn / Roshi / Tenshinhan
Botamo / Other fodder[/spoiler]

What a cluster-fuck.

[Helios518]

With this new information regarding how strong Potara is, doesn't this basically confirm Vegetto Blue (and, by extension, Merged Zamasu) is still stronger than Jiren?

Well considering Beerus felt Cloud Zamasu's ki and remained stoic but felt Geran's ki and exclaimed "Is this really the energy from one warrior?!", I believe otherwise.

Beerus wasn't really stoic since you saw a sweat drop. Beerus also had a clue of how strong Zamasu was since he was a prodigy Supreme Kai. Jiren literally came out of nowhere, which is why Beerus went 'WTF'.

1) Zamasu was about SSJ2 Goku tier when Beerus saw him. I'm sure Beerus would've freaked out if Zamasu jumped from SSJ2 to Hakaishin level. 2) The thought of a being like Geran being in the ToP was already a possibility in Beerus' mind because Whis mentioned the rumor before the ToP. So it's not like Beerus went into the ToP with zero expectations.

[ssbgoku]

Taking in cosideration the latest and generally most of episodes from tournament arc we have seen some cases where skills beats raw power or at least skills or hax technique being match changer like you could win with bigger skills. I have rewatched Hit vs goku battle from u6 last time, and now bringing this new route of dbs it making me wonder how hit was stacking up to Kaioken ssb goku.

Reason is simple, Hit was having hard time against goku using just ssb, but managed to quite easily beat him by utlising supperior skills and technique. Goku decided then to stack KK on top of ssb, but... When he has just stacked x2(standard) kaioken on top of ssb he was blitzing hit like nothing/crazy, and not even few seconds passed and then he went kkx10 on top of ssb and even although striked hit manged to survive and escape/prolong it. I guess it would be just filler part... why ?.
Because just in the begining of next episode goku was back to kaioken x2 ssb(visually changed back to previous one), also after he striked him with Time Skip goku brought back kaioken but he didn't change to anything else then kaioken x2 ssb(again looked same) also with one punch caught off guard hit was put down and struggled to stand up... It means to me kaioken x10 was filler scene as it almost brought nothing more, like it could not exist and not make impact. It could then make more sense when it came to Goku vs hit rematch(even if it was filler (not in main outline)). Thanks to goku having skills and way to respond to hit techniques he could match him by just using ssb. It could also make sense that goku didn't get 10 times more powerfull in such short time...(FT arc.)

Now comming to how ssb Vegetto(current or FT) compare to jiren and ui goku. Well based on Kefla's fight against goku(yeah I know he was fatigued, but still we can deduce how vegetto would compare. Let's just assume goku was around 1% in ssg when he fought base Kefla, then 100% current ssg goku would be match for ssj Kefla, now taking in cosideration that vegetto should be stronger then kefla in same forms, let's assume they are equal. So current ssj vegetto = current ssg goku, then based on ssb showdown in compare to ssg we could get 50x multiplier. From ss to ss3 we have 8 times multiplier, so it is already 400 times (whateven multiplier is for ssg over ss3).

In Short that means that current ssb vegito would be = 400+(at least 1600 with ssg being 4x ssj3) x ssb goku, which make it impossible for jiren or ui goku to be that much stronger and keeping in mind Beerus and GODs are below jiren, Current SSb Vegetto would be for sure supperior with at least 4 times advantage. Thanks to my previous calcaulation of goku not having such big gains from u6 to after future Trunks arc..., FT Vegetto would be still 200+(800) x ssb goku which again should be more then jiren or ui goku could be over ssb. I am afraid how strong UI Vegetto would be(if it happens), second only to Grand Priest I think

Zeno > Grand Priest > angels >= TOP SSB Vegitto > FT Trunks arc Vegetto > Jiren >= Ui goku

[ekrolo2]

Since everyone is making tier lists:

[spoiler]Zeno / Future Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
UI Goku / Jiren
SSB Vegetto / Gods of Destruction / Goo Zamasu
Kaioken x20 Goku
Kaioken x10 Goku / Halo Zamasu

SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Freeza
Berserker Kafla / SSI Trunks / Hit / Toppo / SSR Black

SSG Goku / Freeza / Base Kafla / Base Black / Android #17 / Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo / Maji Kayo

SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu / Obuni
Berserker Kale / Kunshi (?) / Majin Boo

SS2 Goku / SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Caulifla / SS2 Cabba / SS2 Gohan
Piccolo / Present Zamasu

SS1 Goku / SS1 Vegeta / Monna / Magetta
SS1 Caulifla / SS1 Cabba / SS1 Gohan
Lavenda / Basil / Bergamo / Android 18 / Kahseral / Frost

Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Shosa / Majora
Jimizu / Sankaku / Su Roas / Ribrianne / Ganos (?)
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba / Base Gohan
Kuririn / Roshi / Tenshinhan
Botamo / Other fodder[/spoiler]

What a cluster-fuck.

I would love to see a list where all the occurrences of inconsistencies are kept so SS2 Trunks is simultaneously SS2 and SSBlue tier as per 57 xD

[Saturnine]

As for stamina not equalling strength - back in the manga getting tired also meant your max powerlevel declined, SSj Goku after he was done with his fight against Cell being a prime example. He got worn out to the level below Vegeta and Trunks. So yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to think a tired Goku is only at like 1/2 or so of his prowess.

[BlueVegerot]

As for stamina not equalling strength - back in the manga getting tired also meant your max powerlevel declined, SSj Goku after he was done with his fight against Cell being a prime example. He got worn out to the level below Vegeta and Trunks. So yeah, I don't think it's unreasonable to think a tired Goku is only at like 1/2 or so of his prowess.

Also freeza in RoF arc, he was still in his golden form while fighting vegeta but vegeta one sidedly beat the shit out of him til he reverted back to final form.

[dragon boss z]

Super Saiyan for fusions seems to be a 4-5x multiplier.

Ya I was thinking multipliers for fusions were smaller for a while now. I feel like the fusion brings out more of their latent power so the ssj boost doesn't do quite as much.

Fixed your quotes

This will also perfectly fit in line with filler base vegetto being able to engage with buuhan and a full-power enraged buuhan still giving SS Vegetto difficulty.


Or it could be because kale and caulifla fused in super saiyan forms.

Dang didn't realize I messed up the quotes.

But ya I agree with the reasons you stated, also I didn't feel like the multipliers were as much for Gotenks either.

[dragon boss z]

My current tier list (not set in stone and I may change things on a whim)
Zenos
Grand Priest
Angels
GoD, Jiren, UI Goku, SSB Vegito
Merged Zamsu, KKx20 Goku
SSB Goku/Vegeta, Golden Fireza, Toppo, SSR Black, Hit, ssj Kefla, base Vegito
SSG Goku, base Kefla, base Black (could be in the tier below)
Ultimate Gohan, Berserk Kale, ssj3 Goku
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta
ssj Goku/Vegeta, 100% Frieza
base Goku/Vegeta, ssj2 Caulifla, ssj2 Cabba, final form Frieza, super Ribrianne
Buu, ssj Caulifla, ssj Cabba, Bergamo, Ribrianne, 17 (could be higher), Dyspo (could be higher due to speed), Magetta (durability could put him higher)
final form Frost, Piccolo, first form Frieza, mid tier pride troopers
18, base Gohan, base Caulifla, base Cabba, U6 Namekians, Botamo, Lavender, Basil, low tier pride troopers
Krillin, Tien, Roshi, U9/10 fodder

[brett wheeler]

Since everybody got tier lists ill show mine.
[spoiler]UI goku/jiren
Hakiashins/ssb vegito
Merged zamasu
Ssbkk×20
Hit paralysis technique
Ssbkk×10
Ssbkk
Kafka ssj enraged FP
Ssb goku/vegeta/toppo/true golden frieza
Ssg goku/vegeta
Dyspo/ssj kafla/tired ssb goku
Base kafla
Tired ssg goku
Android 17/ult gohan
Controlled berserk kale
Ssj3 goku/berserk kale
Ssj2 goku/ssj2 vegeta
Ssj2 califla/kale ssj
Ssj2 cabba
Goku ssj/vegeta ssj/meggeta
Frieza
Ssj califla
Frost/ssj cabba
Goku/vegeta/super rebrianne/gohan/piccolo/u6 nemakians
Califla/rebrianne
Kale
Killen
Master roshi FP
Tien
Master roshi

I probably missed a bunch but most other fighters fall between roshi and ssj3 at most, not many god tier fighter goku is just a dumb add who uses ssb for no reason.[/spoiler]

[Doctor.]

So SSB is at least 50x SSG and UI is at least 20x that.

They closed the gap between SSG and SS3 so much but then go right ahead and do this.

[Bullza]

Would we still say Hit would be above Super Saiyan Kefla? Not just power wise but overall, I think he'd be able to beat her.

They closed the gap between SSG and SS3 so much but then go right ahead and do this.

They did? Super Saiyan God was powerful enough to threaten the whole universe with a few punches and he powered up after that whole thing happened a couple times. It's on an entirely different realm of power to Super Saiyan 3.

[BlueVegerot]

Would we still say Hit would be above Super Saiyan Kefla? Not just power wise but overall, I think he'd be able to beat her.

They closed the gap between SSG and SS3 so much but then go right ahead and do this.

They did? Super Saiyan God was powerful enough to threaten the whole universe with a few punches and he powered up after that whole thing happened a couple times. It's on an entirely different realm of power to Super Saiyan 3.

Hit would beat kefla. He actually trapped jiren in the time skip and anybody else he did that too would have been knocked off with his last attack

[apex_pretador]

Dragon Ball Super tier list (upto ep 115)

Creation tier
Zarama
Zeno = Future Zeno
Dr Rota with special ability

Beyond angel tier
Grand Preist
Super Shenron
Zeno's attendents

Angel tier

All angels

GoD tier 1

Gin
Beerus
Quitela
Jiren
UI Goku
SSB Vegetto

GoD tier 2
Liquor
Belmod
Merged Zamasu (peak)
Rumshi
KK x20 SSB Goku
Heles
KK x10 SSB Goku

GoD tier 3

Moscow
Champa
Sidra
Initial merged zamasu
KK SSB Goku
SS Kefla
Hit the assassin
Golden Freeza
Vegeta SSB
Goku SSB
Toppo

Ultra high tier

Base Kefla
Super Saiyan God
Dyspo
Mastered Berserker kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Mystic Gohan (full power)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/vegeta
100% Final form Freeza

High tier

Maji Kayo
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla (mastered)
Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
Obuni
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla (original)
Ribanne
Android 17
Frost
Base Goku/vegeta
Kid buu
Gohan / Piccolo / U6 Namekians
Monna
Super Saiyan Cabba / Caulifla


Mid tier

Basil (stronger than exhibition)
Fat buu
Napapa
M Vegeta
First form Freeza (RoF)
Tagoma
General Kahesral
Super Sayan Goten
Base Cabba, Caulifla

[SaiyanSoul]

As it stands assuming everyone is fresh and at full strength

Vegetto Blue > Beerus > Merged Zamasu/Jiren/UI Goku > SSJBKKx20 Goku/Time Skip Killing Techniques Hitto > SSJB Goku/SSJB Vegeta/True Golden Frieza > True SSJ Kefla > Toppo > SSJG Goku > Base Kefla > SSJ Berserker Kale > Android 17/Ultimate Gohan > Dyspo > Android 18/SSJ2 Kelfa > Piccolo > SSJ2 Cabba

Didn't Kefla beat SSB Kaioken Goku? She even said she wanted to keep fighting him. I think she wasn't going all out.

Jiren is stronger than Beerus.

Why is 18 stronger than Piccolo again?

We do not know that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, all we know is that Jiren is around the level of a God of Destruction and that he's stronger in terms of "battle power" than Belmond. That doesn't mean that Belmond is stronger than Beerus which the show is indicating is probably the strongest God of Destruction. The Kefla vs super tired Goku fight is a wash because Vados and Champa mentions that if Goku was fresh he would probably defeat her as SSB. Hell even super tired SSBKK Goku did some serious damage to her. At the moment Piccolo is above SSJ2 Gohan which the show has indicated is weaker than Android 18.

[Lord Beerus]

Since everyone is making tier lists:

[spoiler]Zeno / Future Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
UI Goku / Jiren
SSB Vegetto / Gods of Destruction / Goo Zamasu
Kaioken x20 Goku
Kaioken x10 Goku / Halo Zamasu

SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Freeza
Berserker Kafla / SSI Trunks / Hit / Toppo / SSR Black

SSG Goku / Freeza / Base Kafla / Base Black / Android #17 / Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo / Maji Kayo

SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu / Obuni
Berserker Kale / Kunshi (?) / Majin Boo

SS2 Goku / SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Caulifla / SS2 Cabba / SS2 Gohan
Piccolo / Present Zamasu

SS1 Goku / SS1 Vegeta / Monna / Magetta
SS1 Caulifla / SS1 Cabba / SS1 Gohan
Lavenda / Basil / Bergamo / Android 18 / Kahseral / Frost

Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Shosa / Majora
Jimizu / Sankaku / Su Roas / Ribrianne / Ganos (?)
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba / Base Gohan
Kuririn / Roshi / Tenshinhan
Botamo / Other fodder[/spoiler]

What a cluster-fuck.

I would love to see a list where all the occurrences of inconsistencies are kept so SS2 Trunks is simultaneously SS2 and SSBlue tier as per 57 xD

I just think Future Trunks pulled a Vegeta from Battle Of Gods and got a temporary rage boost that lasted for the entire episode and allowed him to hang with the likes of SSJR Goku Black, Zamasu and SSJB Goku.

[ssbgoku]

Here is my list of characters by relative power scaling:

[spoiler]Dragon Ball Super tier list (upto ep 115)

Creation tier
Zarama
Zeno = Future Zeno

Beyond angel tier
Grand Preist
Super Shenron
Zeno's attendents

Angel tier

All angels

GoD tier 1

Current ssb vegetto
Gin
Beerus
Quitela
Black arc ssb vegetto
Jiren
UI Goku

GoD tier 2
Liquor
Belmod
Merged Zamasu (peak)
Rumshi
Current arc ssg Vegetto
KK x20 SSB Goku
Black arc ssg Vegetto
Heles
KK x10 SSB Goku

GoD tier 3

Moscow
Champa
Sidra
Initial merged zamasu
KK SSB Goku
SS2 Kefla
Hit the assassin
Golden Freeza
Vegeta SSB
Goku SSB
Toppo
SS Kefla

Ultra high tier

Base Kefla
current Super Saiyan God goku
Dyspo
Mastered Berserker kale
Super Saiyan 3 Goku
Mystic Gohan (full power)
Super Saiyan 2 Goku/vegeta
100% Final form Freeza

High tier

Maji Kayo
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla (mastered)
Super Saiyan Goku / Vegeta
Final Form Freeza
Super Saiyan 2 Cabba
Obuni
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla (original)
Ribanne
Android 17
Frost
Base Goku/vegeta
Kid buu
Gohan / Piccolo / U6 Namekians
Monna
Super Saiyan Cabba / Caulifla


Mid tier

Basil (stronger than exhibition)
Fat buu
Napapa
M Vegeta
First form Freeza (RoF)
Tagoma
General Kahesral
Super Sayan Goten
Base Cabba, Caulifla[/spoiler]

[ekrolo2]

Since everyone is making tier lists:

[spoiler]Zeno / Future Zeno
Grand Priest
Angels
UI Goku / Jiren
SSB Vegetto / Gods of Destruction / Goo Zamasu
Kaioken x20 Goku
Kaioken x10 Goku / Halo Zamasu

SSB Goku / SSB Vegeta / Golden Freeza
Berserker Kafla / SSI Trunks / Hit / Toppo / SSR Black

SSG Goku / Freeza / Base Kafla / Base Black / Android #17 / Ultimate Gohan
Dyspo / Maji Kayo

SS3 Goku / Future Zamasu / Obuni
Berserker Kale / Kunshi (?) / Majin Boo

SS2 Goku / SS2 Vegeta
SS2 Caulifla / SS2 Cabba / SS2 Gohan
Piccolo / Present Zamasu

SS1 Goku / SS1 Vegeta / Monna / Magetta
SS1 Caulifla / SS1 Cabba / SS1 Gohan
Lavenda / Basil / Bergamo / Android 18 / Kahseral / Frost

Base Goku / Base Vegeta / Shosa / Majora
Jimizu / Sankaku / Su Roas / Ribrianne / Ganos (?)
Base Caulifla / Base Cabba / Base Gohan
Kuririn / Roshi / Tenshinhan
Botamo / Other fodder[/spoiler]

What a cluster-fuck.

I would love to see a list where all the occurrences of inconsistencies are kept so SS2 Trunks is simultaneously SS2 and SSBlue tier as per 57 xD

I just think Future Trunks pulled a Vegeta from Battle Of Gods and got a temporary rage boost that lasted for the entire episode and allowed him to hang with the likes of SSJR Goku Black, Zamasu and SSJB Goku.

Feels like something the show would comment on if it happened, and even Vegeta's BoG one was treated as a prolongued burst of anger, 57 has Trunks stop and talk or just launch into a mandatory fight stare down.

[BlueVegerot]

I'm pretty sure toriyama outline for trunks said " powered up ss2" or something like that. Toyo put that in the story in that ss2 trunks = ss3 goku while toei just made him able to legitimately compete with ss rose. I like toei idea better. It was his arc, make him useful.

[Lord Beerus]

I would love to see a list where all the occurrences of inconsistencies are kept so SS2 Trunks is simultaneously SS2 and SSBlue tier as per 57 xD

I just think Future Trunks pulled a Vegeta from Battle Of Gods and got a temporary rage boost that lasted for the entire episode and allowed him to hang with the likes of SSJR Goku Black, Zamasu and SSJB Goku.

Feels like something the show would comment on if it happened, and even Vegeta's BoG one was treated as a prolongued burst of anger, 57 has Trunks stop and talk or just launch into a mandatory fight stare down.

Well, Future Trunks' aura flared up immensely and Goku Black had a look of shock on his face when it happened. Indicating that Future Trunks power spontaneously spiked immensely in a fit of anger (much like what happened with Gohan, Goku and Vegeta in the past). So I think scenario like that doesn't really need a comment when the show had already demonstrated that something like can happen with Saiyans specifically. In fact, it happens again in a later episode (Episode 61) with SSJB Goku flying into a fit of rage, over discovering what the fate of alternate timeline Chi Chi and Goten at the hand of Zamasu/Goku Black, and his power spiking (temporarily) because of it.