Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SupremeKai25]

There was Vegeta saying suppressed Jiren had greater Ki than anyone he'd ever come across or something like that. I think that's where the idea is coming from.

He said the same thing about Fused Zamasu, mentioning that he had never seen a God let off such a powerful Light, and then Gowasu and Shin even remarked that Fused Zamasu's presence alone was beyond even their divine comprehension.

Truthfully, it is impossible to know precisely where Fused Zamasu would rank compared to Jiren, because Fused Zamasu's power was stated to have expanded to no end and his potential was limitless. And indeed, he merged with the fabric of the Universe and transcended time and space in a matter of seconds.

But regardless, I am simply questioning the original claim that 'Jiren is far superior to Fused Zamasu'. Jiren might be stronger than Fused Zamasu, but don't you think it's a little exaggerated to say that he's far beyond Fused Zamasu?

[Bullza]

He said the same thing about Fused Zamasu, mentioning that he had never seen a God let off such a powerful Light, and then Gowasu and Shin even remarked that Fused Zamasu's presence alone was beyond even their divine comprehension.

Truthfully, it is impossible to know precisely where Fused Zamasu would rank compared to Jiren, because Fused Zamasu's power was stated to have expanded to no end and his potential was limitless. And indeed, he merged with the fabric of the Universe and transcended time and space in a matter of seconds.

But regardless, I am simply questioning the original claim that 'Jiren is far superior to Fused Zamasu'. Jiren might be stronger than Fused Zamasu, but don't you think it's a little exaggerated to say that he's far beyond Fused Zamasu?

I do remember it was said with Merged Zamasu, it was probably true for the time. Who was the strongest that Vegeta knew of by then? Super Saiyan Blue Goku Kaioken x10? What would have to be a heavily suppressed Beerus?

I think Shin also said that they'd never fought someone like Jiren back in the two part special and that was when he was suppressed and he had actually seen Merged Zamasu. Then Vegeta said it again which would be consistent with Shin.

If Jiren from the start was indeed stronger than Merged Zamasu then considering he's powered up twice since then and he will power up again in the next episode then it wouldn't be exaggerated but that's only if Jiren from Episode 109/110 really was above Merged Zamasu.

[ZombieVito]

There was Vegeta saying suppressed Jiren had greater Ki than anyone he'd ever come across or something like that. I think that's where the idea is coming from.

He said the same thing about Fused Zamasu, mentioning that he had never seen a God let off such a powerful Light, and then Gowasu and Shin even remarked that Fused Zamasu's presence alone was beyond even their divine comprehension.

Truthfully, it is impossible to know precisely where Fused Zamasu would rank compared to Jiren, because Fused Zamasu's power was stated to have expanded to no end and his potential was limitless. And indeed, he merged with the fabric of the Universe and transcended time and space in a matter of seconds.

But regardless, I am simply questioning the original claim that 'Jiren is far superior to Fused Zamasu'. Jiren might be stronger than Fused Zamasu, but don't you think it's a little exaggerated to say that he's far beyond Fused Zamasu?

To be fair he said Jiren was the strongest foe he fought. He never fought Corrupted Zamasu, Vegetto did. Still Jiren is stronger but I wouldn't say by that much.

If Jiren is a 10, Corrupted Zamasu should be an 8/8.5 IMO.

Infinite Zamasu is so OP that I don't think he was even considered.

[HeroR]

There was Vegeta saying suppressed Jiren had greater Ki than anyone he'd ever come across or something like that. I think that's where the idea is coming from.

He said the same thing about Fused Zamasu, mentioning that he had never seen a God let off such a powerful Light, and then Gowasu and Shin even remarked that Fused Zamasu's presence alone was beyond even their divine comprehension.

Truthfully, it is impossible to know precisely where Fused Zamasu would rank compared to Jiren, because Fused Zamasu's power was stated to have expanded to no end and his potential was limitless. And indeed, he merged with the fabric of the Universe and transcended time and space in a matter of seconds.

But regardless, I am simply questioning the original claim that 'Jiren is far superior to Fused Zamasu'. Jiren might be stronger than Fused Zamasu, but don't you think it's a little exaggerated to say that he's far beyond Fused Zamasu?

To be fair he said Jiren was the strongest foe he fought. He never fought Corrupted Zamasu, Vegetto did. Still Jiren is stronger but I wouldn't say by that much.

If Jiren is a 10, Corrupted Zamasu should be an 8/8.5 IMO.

Infinite Zamasu is so OP that I don't think he was even considered.

Infinite Zamasu can't really be scaled since he became the multiverse and was about to burst through timelines. Like, how do you scale that?

[Mister_Popo]

I think Jiren is a lot stronger than Merged Zamasu's physical presence. Zamasu however is immortal. If i were mastered UI Goku, i would rather be locked inside the same universe with Jiren than Merged Zamasu. I mean, how do you fight such a guy, you need a Zeno-button, without it you always have a fundamental problem.

[ZombieVito]

Infinite Zamasu can't really be scaled since he became the multiverse and was about to burst through timelines. Like, how do you scale that?

Exactly.

I just give him and Zeno infinite in BP and call it a day.

I think Jiren is a lot stronger than Merged Zamasu. Zamasu however is immortal. If i were mastered UI Goku, i would rather be locked inside the same universe with Jiren than Merged Zamasu.

Merged Zamasu is a cheat character. No matter who you are (Expect Zeno), you will always lose if you fight him.

You overpowered him and destroyed his body? Too bad, Infinite Zamasu gets created and kills you and everyone else.

GG.

[HeroR]

Infinite Zamasu can't really be scaled since he became the multiverse and was about to burst through timelines. Like, how do you scale that?

Exactly.

I just give him and Zeno infinite in BP and call it a day.

I think Jiren is a lot stronger than Merged Zamasu. Zamasu however is immortal. If i were mastered UI Goku, i would rather be locked inside the same universe with Jiren than Merged Zamasu.

Merged Zamasu is a cheat character. No matter who you are (Expect Zeno), you will always lose if you fight him.

You overpowered him and destroyed his body? Too bad, Infinite Zamasu gets created and kills you and everyone else.

The director of the show at the time outright called Merged Zamasu a cheat character even by Dragon Ball standards. He would have truly been unstoppable if he wasn't gimped by being half-mortal.

[ZombieVito]

The director of the show at the time outright called Merged Zamasu a cheat character even by Dragon Ball standards. He would have truly been unstoppable if he wasn't gimped by being half-mortal.

I don't really consider it a weakness. Thanks to his mortal half he could grow stronger to the point of matching Vegetto Blue and also it was because of his mortal half that Infinite Zamasu could be born.

[Kenneth La Torre]

We don’t need statements about MUI goku tho. We already have the 129 promo stating that it is a power that surpasses hakaishins and that hakaishins cannot reach. Jiren is the one that we should focus on. If jiren fights competitively against UI goku, that’s that would put jiren above hakaishin tier as well. UI omen is out of the question, since jiren can apperantly tank him casually.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Vegeta stated that he never saw anyone let off energy like Merged Zamasu God or not and he saw Beerus and Champa fight each other. Beerus's full power isn't a secret based on the fact that multiple characters have made assessments where someone stands compared to the Gods.
Then Gowasu states that Merged Zamasu's standing as a God was beyond his comprehension and that he had never seen such a powerful light.

So Merged Zamasu's Light at that point was beyond the Gods of Destruction.

So Merged Zamasu in his Halo form was already stronger than the Gods of Destruction and that fits with the foreshadowing earlier in the story with Goku stating that Zamasu could become a God as strong as Beerus.

Merged Zamasu powered up even more above his previous level which was already stronger than the Gods of Destruction with his Light of Justice and Jiren was stated to be above that Merged Zamasu while heavily suppressed. I see no reason why Infinite Zamasu has to be stronger than normal Merged Zamasu in terms of power.

[HeroR]

The director of the show at the time outright called Merged Zamasu a cheat character even by Dragon Ball standards. He would have truly been unstoppable if he wasn't gimped by being half-mortal.

I don't really consider it a weakness. Thanks to his mortal half he could grow stronger to the point of matching Vegetto Blue and also it was because of his mortal half that Infinite Zamasu could be born.

I was more talking about Black not being immortal. That way he would keep getting stronger and be immortal. While Infinite Zamasu was strong, he wasn't exactly sane. He was kinda of Almighty Idiot.

[ZombieVito]

I was more talking about Black not being immortal. That way he would keep getting stronger and be immortal. While Infinite Zamasu was strong, he wasn't exactly sane. He was kinda of Almighty Idiot.

But the only reason Black could keep getting stronger is because he wasn't an immortal. That's the whole reason he choose to steal Goku's body instead of wishing for immortality.

[HeroR]

I was more talking about Black not being immortal. That way he would keep getting stronger and be immortal. While Infinite Zamasu was strong, he wasn't exactly sane. He was kinda of Almighty Idiot.

But the only reason Black could keep getting stronger is because he wasn't an immortal. That's the whole reason he choose to steal Goku's body instead of wishing for immortality.

That wasn't said or implied. He chose Goku's body for power and enjoyed the thrill of fighting that he thought becoming an immortal would be boring and make him rusty like Future Zamasu who had a lousy guard. Remember. Vegeta planned to eventually beat Freeza by becoming an immortal and using his Saiyan genes to grow infinitely stronger.

[Green]

Regarding the whole Jiren suppressed thing, I have this headcanon: when someone says "I've never faced someone as strong as you" or something along those lines he is referring to the full power of the target of said hype, even if he is suppressed. It's a fighting thing: imagine if you had a fight with this guy, who was pretty confident and schooled you with his arms tied behind his back. Hey, he is strong, afterall he wasn't remotely serious and you can imagine how dangerous he is.

I am of the opinion an experienced fighter can sense how strong an opponent is, just like Beerus sensed Goku's base and concluded he was weaker than Freezer even if the former wasn't obviously at full power. Or how Goku knew he was no match for Beerus despite improving, how Vegeta knew at first glance that Whis was dangerous, how Goku knew the Daishinkan stood at the top, how Gowasu knew MZ was hiding GoD tier strenght... should I go on?
Plus we also have to factor author's intent in this: Vegeta saying that could have also been the writer's way of telling the spectators: "hey, Jiren is super strong, stronger than anyone you've seen before!"

[Legion]

I'm 100% sure that Jiren, the Gods, Goku and current Vegeta are>Merged Zamasu. It's a common opinion at this point. Universal Zamasu is different.

[Mister_Popo]

We don’t need statements about MUI goku tho. We already have the 129 promo stating that it is a power that surpasses hakaishins and that hakaishins cannot reach. Jiren is the one that we should focus on. If jiren fights competitively against UI goku, that’s that would put jiren above hakaishin tier as well. UI omen is out of the question, since jiren can apperantly tank him casually.

I only wanted to say Jiren is a very very difficult opponent to beat as a mortal but theoretically (MUI Goku?) still feasible, while Merged Zamasu is truly unbeatable for mortals without erase-function.
MUI Goku i used as a theoretical benchmark, although he still has to prove it first.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Regarding the whole Jiren suppressed thing, I have this headcanon: when someone says "I've never faced someone as strong as you" or something along those lines he is referring to the full power of the target of said hype, even if he is suppressed. It's a fighting thing: imagine if you had a fight with this guy, who was pretty confident and schooled you with his arms tied behind his back. Hey, he is strong, afterall he wasn't remotely serious and you can imagine how dangerous he is.

I am of the opinion an experienced fighter can sense how strong an opponent is, just like Beerus sensed Goku's base and concluded he was weaker than Freezer even if the former wasn't obviously at full power. Or how Goku knew he was no match for Beerus despite improving, how Vegeta knew at first glance that Whis was dangerous, how Goku knew the Daishinkan stood at the top, how Gowasu knew MZ was hiding GoD tier strenght... should I go on?
Plus we also have to factor author's intent in this: Vegeta saying that could have also been the writer's way of telling the spectators: "hey, Jiren is super strong, stronger than anyone you've seen before!"

Definitely.

I think Whis's comments near the end of episode 109 help cement this idea. He states that Jiren has definitely reached the level of Hakaishin, and perhaps even surpassed it.

We all saw that Jiren was barely sweating anything, but he also lets off more power later in the tournament. Suppressed power levels have only ever really worked against scouters; trained fighters can tell how strong other fighters are by sensing how they're suppressing their energy. Future Trunks did the same when Goku Black came to the main timeline, as he gauged how suppressed Goku Black was when he was fighting SS2 Goku and was able to tell that he had become even stronger than he originally was, when he was as strong as the SS3 power that Goku had shown Future Trunks.

[TheUltimateNinja]

Jiren and Goku both have infinite power via shaking the world of void which is infinite. Vegeta and Kefla scale to this.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Jiren and Goku both have infinite power via shaking the world of void which is infinite. Vegeta and Kefla scale to this.

Well, in dragon ball authors tend to forget dimensional scaling (I know you are talking about vs battled and what not). It’s true that they have infinite 3D power and are now 4 dimensional, dragon ball will never use those terms. They didn’t even use it for infinite zamasu, who became 4D right in front of everyone

[Rally 07]

Jiren and Goku both have infinite power via shaking the world of void which is infinite. Vegeta and Kefla scale to this.

You mean suppressed Jiren and Ultra Instinct Gokou shaking the entire World of Void and later Vegeta and Kefla being stated to have like infinite or boundless energy when powering up. And "boundless energy" being the same terminology for suppressed Jiren and Ultra Instinct.