Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Ultra Instinct Goku, Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta, Toppo and Jiren I'd say where the only four characters that were at or above the level of a God of Destruction.

And Toppo and Vegeta would probably be at the low end of that anyway. They wouldn't beat Beerus.

[ZombieVito]

Ultra Instinct Goku, Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta, Toppo and Jiren I'd say where the only four characters that were at or above the level of a God of Destruction.

And Toppo and Vegeta would probably be at the low end of that anyway. They wouldn't beat Beerus.

If you are adding Toppo and Vegeta then I would add Kefla too.

I consider all 3 on the same tier.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I don't think anyone Vegeta, Toppo or Kefla were at the level of the Active GoDs.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Nothing to suggest toppo would be weaker than all 12. At least he seems superior to sidra. And he was stated by belmod to be no different than a hakaishin.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Nothing to suggest toppo would be weaker than all 12. At least he seems superior to sidra. And he was stated by belmod to be no different than a hakaishin.

Why do people keep saying this?

The hakai that freeza tanked was also unable to wipe out BASE Goku for the time he was in it. Are we now going to say Base goku is relative to sidra?
Sidra had no idea about Freeza's true power. All he knew about him was that he was evil and used to blow up planets (was on godtube which had to have been from his pre-namek era days). He gave the dog a tiny portion of energy that was split into 3. Golden Freeza surviving that means very little

As far as Belmods statement, that could just mean he has their abilities (e.g. hakai and being coated in hakai energy which would destroy any attack)It doesn't necessarily mean Toppo's raw power = Active GoDs raw power

[Kenneth La Torre]

I take it as meaning he is at that level. After all, beerus, quitela, and possibly belmod, are exceptions when it comes to the power of hakaishins, as their power
seem much higher than the other ones (beerus with uio, quitela having more physical strength than beerus, belmod tanking liquors blast with absolutely no damage)
If 3rd trigger omen goku is indees almost as strong as beerus, then toppo being on the level of some active hakaishins isnt a stretch.

[Bullza]

Finished rewatching the Copy Vegeta Saga, not really much to say about it other than what we knew already Base Vegeta and by extension Base Goku are far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

That was pretty consistent with what had been shown up to that point I suppose. The complications seem to start from this point on though I won't be rewatching the Future Trunks Saga until after Xmas so that doesn't matter for now.

There's nothing directly to say for sure unless you counted the Battle of Gods movie then you could say that they would also be above the likes of Ultimate Gohan from the Buu Saga as well. Would they be higher than Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu? Probably.

Otherwise yeah, most of these top tier Z characters aren't really much at all compared to the Super characters even the weak ones.

[ZombieVito]

Finished rewatching the Copy Vegeta Saga, not really much to say about it other than what we knew already Base Vegeta and by extension Base Goku are far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

That was pretty consistent with what had been shown up to that point I suppose. The complications seem to start from this point on though I won't be rewatching the Future Trunks Saga until after Xmas so that doesn't matter for now.

There's nothing directly to say for sure unless you counted the Battle of Gods movie then you could say that they would also be above the likes of Ultimate Gohan from the Buu Saga as well. Would they be higher than Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu? Probably.

Otherwise yeah, most of these top tier Z characters aren't really much at all compared to the Super characters even the weak ones.

I would actually put base Goku and Vegeta from the Commeson arc around Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc to keep everything as minimal as possible.

I don't think Gotenks is dimentions apart from them since he endured the full 5 minutes of the fusion instead of defusing after a few hits like with Beerus.

[Bullza]

I would actually put base Goku and Vegeta from the Commeson arc around Ultimate Gohan from the Boo arc to keep everything as minimal as possible.

I don't think Gotenks is dimentions apart from them since he endured the full 5 minutes of the fusion instead of defusing after a few hits like with Beerus.

If Super Saiyan Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku, well he'd be a lot stronger at this point, then he should be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. Which should mean Base Goku would be stronger than Base Vegito.

Base Vegito was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. He was likely in-between Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu.

[PFM18]

Finished rewatching the Copy Vegeta Saga, not really much to say about it other than what we knew already Base Vegeta and by extension Base Goku are far above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

That was pretty consistent with what had been shown up to that point I suppose. The complications seem to start from this point on though I won't be rewatching the Future Trunks Saga until after Xmas so that doesn't matter for now.

There's nothing directly to say for sure unless you counted the Battle of Gods movie then you could say that they would also be above the likes of Ultimate Gohan from the Buu Saga as well. Would they be higher than Gotenks Buu or Gohan Buu? Probably.

Otherwise yeah, most of these top tier Z characters aren't really much at all compared to the Super characters even the weak ones.

yeah theres this misconception that Base Goku just needs to be seen as strong because he was stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks and no other reason but him being stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks in Base is just consistent with the previous events.

it is just a hard pill to swallow for people that SSJ2 Future Trunks could crush BoG SSG Goku like a bug

[ZombieVito]

If Super Saiyan Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku, well he'd be a lot stronger at this point, then he should be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. Which should mean Base Goku would be stronger than Base Vegito.

Base Vegito was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. He was likely in-between Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu.

Super Saiyan Goku in E13 is different than the Super Saiyan Goku that appears in E15. Unless you think the hypothetical Super Saiyan God Goku in the RoF arc is hundreds of times stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku from the BoG arc.

Base Vegetto being stronger than Ultimate Gohan is not confirmed anywhere. Officially he's only stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

[RecolorSaiyan]

If Super Saiyan Goku is supposed to be as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku, well he'd be a lot stronger at this point, then he should be stronger than Super Saiyan Vegito. Which should mean Base Goku would be stronger than Base Vegito.

Base Vegito was stronger than Ultimate Gohan. He was likely in-between Gotenks Buu and Gohan Buu.

Super Saiyan Goku in E13 is different than the Super Saiyan Goku that appears in E15. Unless you think the hypothetical Super Saiyan God Goku in the RoF arc is hundreds of times stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku from the BoG arc.

Base Vegetto being stronger than Ultimate Gohan is not confirmed anywhere. Officially he's only stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

I'm pretty sure a guidebook has stated Base Vegito > ssj3 goku in the buu saga. Hence why as a suppressed ssj, he was able to casually toy with buuhan who was tens of times above ssj3 goku

[Bullza]

It is just a hard pill to swallow for people that SSJ2 Future Trunks could crush BoG SSG Goku like a bug

Well that is understandable considering a year or two before that he needed Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Dabura and there was no explanation as for why he powered up to such an extent.

That and he also couldn't sense God Ki and there was whole thing about being at a certain level to sense it which would make you think he was at a lower level than Super Saiyan God.

Super Saiyan Goku in E13 is different than the Super Saiyan Goku that appears in E15. Unless you think the hypothetical Super Saiyan God Goku in the RoF arc is hundreds of times stronger than the Super Saiyan God Goku from the BoG arc.

Episode 15? I don't think there was a Super Saiyan Goku again after Episode 13 until when he fought Frost.

No though I wouldn't think that. Considering that absorbing Super Saiyan God is what powered him up enormously in the first place then I don't think that Super Saiyan God would have given him the same kind of boost ever again seeing as it's already a part of him now.

Base Vegetto being stronger than Ultimate Gohan is not confirmed anywhere. Officially he's only stronger than Super Saiyan Goku.

In the anime, Base Vegito is far stronger than Ultimate Gohan based on his fight with Gohan Buu though it is implied he isn't quite as strong as Buu.

That fight may not have been in the manga but it was still included in Dragon Ball Z Kai and Dragon Ball Super continues on from that.

[PFM18]

Well that is understandable considering a year or two before that he needed Super Saiyan 2 to defeat Dabura and there was no explanation as for why he powered up to such an extent.

We have no idea at what point in the time period did he have trouble with Dabura. I don't believe it was ever stated it was a year or two prior. We just know that it was at some point in the 13 year time since we have seen Trunks in the Cell arc.

That and he also couldn't sense God Ki and there was whole thing about being at a certain level to sense it which would make you think he was at a lower level than Super Saiyan God.

Yeah, that's a fair point. But that could be seen as Trunks just not learning how to sense it despite being strong enough.

[CTAkuma]

I think the real question should be Kafla vs Champa.

Probably Kefla if we take the episode guide to 3rd release Ultra instinct sign into account which mentions that it might have surpassed Beerus, that Ultra Instinct sign could have been oneshotted by one of Kefla's attacks as stated by Whis and Vados. Champa is comparable to Beerus yet slightly weaker, so Kefla could win if we go by the guidebook.

[Bullza]

We have no idea at what point in the time period did he have trouble with Dabura. I don't believe it was ever stated it was a year or two prior.

I double checked, in the manga it is said to be a few years before he travelled back in time.

[RecolorSaiyan]

I think the real question should be Kafla vs Champa.

Probably Kefla if we take the episode guide to 3rd release Ultra instinct sign into account which mentions that it might have surpassed Beerus, that Ultra Instinct sign could have been oneshotted by one of Kefla's attacks as stated by Whis and Vados. Champa is comparable to Beerus yet slightly weaker, so Kefla could win if we go by the guidebook.

Kefla could have one shotted 2nd UIO Goku according got Roshi (who isn’t reliable imo)

3rd UIO >> 2nd UIO. Also we don’t know if that guidebook was referring to initial 3rd UIO Goku or the one near the end of the episode who forced Jiren to go FP to finish him off. Goku was getting stronger and stronger in episode 129

[CTAkuma]

I think the real question should be Kafla vs Champa.

Probably Kefla if we take the episode guide to 3rd release Ultra instinct sign into account which mentions that it might have surpassed Beerus, that Ultra Instinct sign could have been oneshotted by one of Kefla's attacks as stated by Whis and Vados. Champa is comparable to Beerus yet slightly weaker, so Kefla could win if we go by the guidebook.

Kefla could have one shotted 2nd UIO Goku according got Roshi (who isn’t reliable imo)

3rd UIO >> 2nd UIO. Also we don’t know if that guidebook was referring to initial 3rd UIO Goku or the one near the end of the episode who forced Jiren to go FP to finish him off. Goku was getting stronger and stronger in episode 129

My bad, yeah we don't really know which release it was referring to.

[PFM18]

No though I wouldn't think that. Considering that absorbing Super Saiyan God is what powered him up enormously in the first place then I don't think that Super Saiyan God would have given him the same kind of boost ever again seeing as it's already a part of him now.

Exactly. That is the intuition and it is confirmed in the ToP that the multiplier is not the same.

I double checked, in the manga it is said to be a few years before he travelled back in time.

Yeah that's the manga's problem then, and all of this talk about SSJ>SSG only applies to the anime anyway. So that time stamp shouldn't apply to the manga just as the statements about SSJ~SSG shouldn't apply to the manga.

Also, the manga also says that Black can use the time ring because he is a lord of lords, then a few chapters later says they would defuse because he isn't a lord of lords. Also, Trunks becomes a Kaioshin apprentice despite it being stated that Kais are born that way as Gods. So I would take anything the manga does with a grain of salt.

[Bergamo]

No though I wouldn't think that. Considering that absorbing Super Saiyan God is what powered him up enormously in the first place then I don't think that Super Saiyan God would have given him the same kind of boost ever again seeing as it's already a part of him now.

Exactly. That is the intuition and it is confirmed in the ToP that the multiplier is not the same.

I double checked, in the manga it is said to be a few years before he travelled back in time.

Yeah that's the manga's problem then, and all of this talk about SSJ>SSG only applies to the anime anyway. So that time stamp shouldn't apply to the manga just as the statements about SSJ~SSG shouldn't apply to the manga.

Also, the manga also says that Black can use the time ring because he is a lord of lords, then a few chapters later says they would defuse because he isn't a lord of lords. Also, Trunks becomes a Kaioshin apprentice despite it being stated that Kais are born that way as Gods. So I would take anything the manga does with a grain of salt.

1. Black can use the time ring because he is wearing the portara, not because he is a lord of lords.
2. Zamas was originally a Lord of Worlds, but he was able to become a Supreme Kai apprentice. Guess he wasn't born that way.

Why even roast the manga when you don't know what you're talking about. Try to make informed critisisms.