Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Legion
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Legion » Sun Jan 14, 2018 7:06 am

Galan007 wrote:Assuming Belmond wasn't just boasting here:


...Jiren should absolutely be > Beerus and all the other Hakaishin, tbh. I figured that was the intent, but until this nothing had really 'confirmed' it for me. /shrug

Maybe, but still nothing suggest that the difference in power between Jiren and the Gods is high like some people believe. We have never see a God fight at full power.

Anyway, the power level in the anime are bullshit. Seriously, anime writers just does not care about power scale. ._.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Doctor. » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:42 am

ZombieVito wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Base Freeza is unharmed by Dyspo's attacks. The retcon theory is basically confirmed at this point.

Or Dyspo is a lot weaker than we thought.

Only having an advantage because of his speed.

Not possible. You can't say Dyspo is weak if his hits managed to damage Hit. Freeza's base is just super strong which, in turn, means he's absolutely not at base Saiyan tier, which means their strength got retconned as it should be incredibly obvious by this point.
Last edited by Doctor. on Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:45 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 8:44 am

I still don't see any real problems with the power-scaling as of right now.

Jiren decides that these Saiyans have earned enough of his respect through their strength and persistence that he decides to show off a small hint of what his true power is.

This episode has further solidified the "fluid combat situation" thinking that I've been constantly advocating for around here. Freeza relies on his large raw power to dust himself off easily when Dyspo tries to speed-blitz him, but he still got bodied nonetheless.

When Goku and Vegeta fight together but not in unison at such high levels, they throw off Jiren's ability to keep track of them and they manage to briefly gain the upperhand despite the large power difference. When Goku is laying down his Ki mines, Jiren at first decides to wink out of there. The second time after Jiren recovers from nearly being eliminated by Goku utilizing some of Krillin's tactics, he just walks through the mines with his raw power, like when Goku went SSB to do so against Kunshi's explosive whips.

When you rely solely on your raw power, your enemies can't do much to you, but you aren't really able to do much back, as seen with Freeza and Jiren. When you rely on your combat skill, you can potentially leave yourself open to free attacks that can briefly knock the wind out of you, as seen with, well, Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PushoverMediaCritic » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:07 am

I'd say it probably goes like this.

Final Form Freeza: 0.8
SBG Goku: 1
SBG Vegeta: 1.1
SSG Goku: 10
Android 17: 30
Ultimate Gohan: 40
SSB Goku: 50
SSB Vegeta: 55
True Golden Freeza: 55
SSB KKx20 Goku: 1,000
SSB2 Vegeta: 1,000
UIO Goku: 2,500 (2,200 in strength)

Jiren (currently): 2,400
Toppo: 80
Dyspo: 2 (2,000 in speed)

While reading this, remember that by Super logic, a power level difference of 100 times over can be made up with martial arts skill, as shown with base Goku vs Caulifla.

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Lord Frieza
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:15 am

So am I right in thinking that when Jiren was doing this...
Image

He was in fact doing this just at a speed to fast to track.
Image
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:21 am

Galan007 wrote:So are we calling 'ASSB' Vegeta equal to SSB+KKx20 Goku?


We probably should, seems to make sense and it's simple and straight forward.

dragon boss z wrote:I don't think final form Frieza is SSG tier. But I do think he could beat ssj Cabba and maybe ssj2 Cabba. However I do think ssj2 Cabba could probably challenge him, hence him going golden. I mean Dyspo can't even damage final form Frieza and Dyspo would of probably creamed ssj2 Cabba.


I think be might be inbetween Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 level. He was weaker than Super Saiyan 2 Cabba but was supposed to be considerably more powerful than Frost who put up a bit of a fight against Super Saiyan Vegeta.

ChiefWamsutta wrote:Yeah, I can't really tell if Vegeta's new form is equal to: 1) SSBlue Kaioken Goku; 2) SSBlue Kaioken x20 Goku; 3) UI Goku

What do you guys think?


Oh I don't think it's gonna be anywhere near as strong as Ultra Instinct. That'll be on a whole other level. I'd say it was the equal of Kaioken x20 as Beerus did say he was using his full power.

dragon boss z wrote:No, though Hit is way overhyped. Without time skip he is between SSG and SSB level in the anime, and in the manga he is actually below or equal to SSG level.


Yeah I mostly agree except in the manga he would be also be between God and Blue as he was able to use his Time Skip to freeze God Goku and that was something he could only do if he was equal or stronger.

avatsu wrote:I more or less had Super's scaling down to a tee until this episode. No idea what's going on with Jiren, or how Goku got well over 20 times stronger in SSB.


I highly doubt that's the case. They never said anything that suggested that. Though it was odd in the last episode how they reacted to Goku going Blue even though he'd seen it already.

Lord Frieza wrote:So am I right in thinking that when Jiren was doing this...

He was in fact doing this just at a speed to fast to track.


I wouldn't have said so. I thought that's what this was at 2:17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8dvAaNYk_U

Unless it's also meant to be the same thing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Lord Frieza » Sun Jan 14, 2018 9:27 am

Bullza wrote:
Lord Frieza wrote:So am I right in thinking that when Jiren was doing this...

He was in fact doing this just at a speed to fast to track.


I wouldn't have said so. I thought that's what this was at 2:17.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8dvAaNYk_U

Unless it's also meant to be the same thing.



Maybe your right. He has also don't that same move when blocking Vegeta last episode and it seems a little unreasonable that he's be using his "Simple Punches" to hold off someone he's not even trying agenst.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby TheSaiyanGod » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:11 am

Goku and Vegeta really get over the first appearance of the UI?

Vermoud said it's been a long time since he saw Jiren releasing that Ki amount, meaning he did not use it against UI Goku.

Meanwhile, Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta '' new Blue '' managed to press Jiren with all that power. So, would they have surpassed the first appearance of the UI?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby pacz360 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:14 am

STH wrote:
pacz360 wrote:
STH wrote:This is so illogical.
Current SSJ2 Goku (in anime) is stronger than Ultimate Gohan.

No he isn't not even close
Gohan was not even at full power against him

I don't think so.

Well your wrong m8
Gohan wasn't going all out against him until he went blue

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 10:21 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:Goku and Vegeta really get over the first appearance of the UI?

Vermoud said it's been a long time since he saw Jiren releasing that Ki amount, meaning he did not use it against UI Goku.

Meanwhile, Goku SSB KK x20 and Vegeta '' new Blue '' managed to press Jiren with all that power. So, would they have surpassed the first appearance of the UI?

Maybe.

We have to remember that the instances in which characters release more of their raw power is all dependent on the circumstances. When Ultra Instinct Goku first showed, Jiren hadn't really powered up from the state at which he was dominating Goku in their Genkidama struggle. 17 also noted that the Ultra Instinct allowed Goku to make up that initial difference in power instantly.

It could be that Jiren's power at the time and his combat skill were enough to take on the still developing Ultra Instinct Goku.

It's also possible that, after fighting with him a bunch, Goku and Vegeta have gotten more used to Jiren's imposing power and combat ability and could spar with him better than before, when he was a complete unknown. After all, learning to read your opponent's movements and adapting to their advantages over you has been an integral part of this whole tournament. Thus, Jiren may feel the need to release a little bit more power so that he can overcome this adaptation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Saturnine » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:11 am

You know what the funny thing is? That both Piccolo and Roshi commented on Vegeta's ki in this episode. Since when can they sense godly ki though? What a shameful oversight.

pacz360 wrote:
STH wrote:
pacz360 wrote:No he isn't not even close
Gohan was not even at full power against him

I don't think so.

Well your wrong m8
Gohan wasn't going all out against him until he went blue


Yeah come on, what would be the point of going blue against Gohan if SSj2 was all he needed? I can agree that Kaioken was unnecessary and Goku likely only did it for dramatic effect, but he definitely needed some percentage of Blue's power to put Gohan down.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:18 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:It's also possible that, after fighting with him a bunch, Goku and Vegeta have gotten more used to Jiren's imposing power and combat ability and could spar with him better than before, when he was a complete unknown. After all, learning to read your opponent's movements and adapting to their advantages over you has been an integral part of this whole tournament. Thus, Jiren may feel the need to release a little bit more power so that he can overcome this adaptation.

That’s what I think. Goku used his brains to make up for the difference in power, like Kuririn is used to. And Jiren is putting a greater distance to feel more secure.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby ekrolo2 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 11:58 am

Jiren's basically the new Ribrianne now, he's as strong or as weak as any scene needs him to be, in 109 he basically kicks Goku's ass at his best by looking at him and now, that same Goku with a comparable Vegeta aren't suffering the same fate.

And please spare me any Zenkai or powering up as they fight bull crap. the former hasn't shown up since Cell and the latter NEVER happened in any pre-Super material, the material that wasn't entirely run on rule of cool.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby SupremeKai25 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:15 pm

So, uhm, any reason why Jiren is not going full power yet? He does know that only 7 minutes are left and that billions of innocent lives are at stake, right? He could easily wipe the floor with those two Saiyan buffoons if he actually tried. Oh well, i guess Toei has to release episodes until March, so they can't quite have Jiren stomp the opposition yet. A pity.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Bullza » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:21 pm

Jiren must have used more power here then than when he pushed back the Spirit Bomb.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Helios518 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:32 pm

Bullza wrote:Jiren must have used more power here then than when he pushed back the Spirit Bomb.

Of course, Vermoud even said something like "I haven't even seen Geran like this in a long time" while Khai said "He's finally showing a hint of his true power".
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Rally 07 » Sun Jan 14, 2018 12:53 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:A complete mess.
It's almost as ep. 109 didn't happen. As if Jiren never blitzed SsjB KKx20 Goku like nothing.

Toei pulled a Merged Zamasu all over again.

I'm really sick of this nonsense bullshit. The manga is way better because power levels actually make sense there. And power scales are everything in Dragon Ball.


You do realize Gokou is stronger than what he was then right? It's very obvious and self-explanatory. So blaming the power scaling is basically you somewhat committing a incredulity fallacy. Meaning you don't seem to comprehend or understand what's going on with Gokou, so you blame the power scaling rather than maybe blaming the writing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby ZombieVito » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:14 pm

Doctor. wrote:Not possible. You can't say Dyspo is weak if his hits managed to damage Hit. Freeza's base is just super strong which, in turn, means he's absolutely not at base Saiyan tier, which means their strength got retconned as it should be incredibly obvious by this point.

So Sorbet is god tier now?

The fact is that Dyspo was so fast that Hit can't react in time to block and that's why he can't put a defense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:28 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Doctor. wrote:Not possible. You can't say Dyspo is weak if his hits managed to damage Hit. Freeza's base is just super strong which, in turn, means he's absolutely not at base Saiyan tier, which means their strength got retconned as it should be incredibly obvious by this point.

So Sorbet is god tier now?

The fact is that Dyspo was so fast that Hit can't react in time to block and that's why he can't put a defense.

Indeed.

Fighting ability plays a MUCH bigger role in these tournament fights than they ever have before.

It's why the characters always talk about how fighters have left openings, have gotten in hits, have managed to block, etc. That stuff is more substantial martial arts lingo, something that's been sorely missing for a long time in the series up until recently.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Postby Hugo Boss » Sun Jan 14, 2018 1:38 pm

Saturnine wrote:You know what the funny thing is? That both Piccolo and Roshi commented on Vegeta's ki in this episode. Since when can they sense godly ki though? What a shameful oversight.

They must have felt the pressure of his energy, not necessarily the exact amount. And visually, everyone can tell he is going beyond Blue.


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