Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ssj3kakarot]

So I was watching Battle of gods again and I couldn’t help but notice something.

When Beerus woke up, he started talking about Frieza and how he’s surprised someone was capable of beating Frieza, especially a Saiyan. Why in the world was Buu not on his radar whatsoever? The power gap between Buu and Frieza was ginormous, yet Whis chose to show him scenes that happened years ago as if nothing happened after that? This really bugs me.


Another thing that bugs me is that Beerus didn’t seem to understand how Goku could beat Frieza until after he transformed. Which is odd seeing as how base Goku could take out Namek Frieza no problem..

This leads me to thinking that everything makes more sense if you skipped cell and Buu arc and went straight to Beerus. Which is stupid. Did this bother anyone else?

This was the starting point of all the power scaling issues for me, and it only went downhill from there. I have to tell myself that Beerus was so powerful at this point that everyone was in the same category of power to him.

I thought it was strange that Buu was never mentioned. Afterall, Buu has been around for a very long time and has some deep plot with some important players in the bigger picture, aka the kais. I mean, when you think about it, if the God of Destruction and the Supreme Kai position are a pair, and if we are to assume Beerus was the God of Destruction during that story line. Then either Beerus was sleeping, or Whis didn't care that Majin Buu was on the kai planet almost ready to kill the Supreme Kai of that time.

At least mention something about it, I guess, like they did with Freeza.

The part about Goku not being able to beat Freeza in base also bugged me because we are to assume that Frieza went full power in front of Beerus for some reason? Because clearly base Goku could take on 1st form Frieza! I'm personally of the thought that base Goku, when Beerus met him on King Kai's planet, could have taken a full power namek saga Frieza.

[RandomGuy96]

Chapter 41 went up.

It looks like Jiren is just outright stronger than MUI (this was heavily implied in the anime too, but the manga makes it more apparent). Even a Warp Kamehameha doesn't put him down, and that one shotted someone stronger than Goku by a decent margin. The way Whis and Beerus explain it, MUI's auto dodge and auto block features let it fight very efficiently and minimize the damage taken, but even blocking Jiren's blows takes a huge toll on Goku. Also Jiren's skills let him progressively do better against Goku, until he comes out on top of their super-fast struggle (which Whis calls "a battle of attrition") and seems to punch Goku out of UI. Regardless, he still uses up most of his power doing this like in the anime, as after that, base Goku and Vegeta can challenge him.

MUI Goku is apparently dimensions above not-SSBE Vegeta in raw power since his blows hurt Jiren and Piccolo and Gohan can't track his and Jiren's movements and imply that's the first time this has happened. Though that should have been obvious.

[ekrolo2]

Removing UI which Goku probably won't be able to use whenever he wants, Vegeta is technically much stronger than him now in the manga with Evolved Blue.

[1345521]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, some of the same beats as the anime, but done differently and with more emphasis on other aspects.

[IM21]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

You do remember that base goku and base frieza defeated Jiren right?

[Issei189]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

Vegeta did say that Jiren was considerably weakened though, so I don't see how Toyo messed up here.

Spoiler:

[ankokudaishogun]

Goku and Vegeta were stated to get a rivalry boost.

by the same guy who said the Potara fusion was permanent.

Also, Vegetto having a Rivalry Bonus doesn't mean Kefla doesn't get a different, even greater, Bonus due their relationship

Thats your headcanon that they got a greater boost to try and justify it. Nothing was ever stated as such.
It always amazes me how many hurdles people will jump through to make sense of bs in super rather than just accepting that its incoherent and illogical

I'm just stating Elder Kai is a Unreliable Source of information(this has been proved), therefore EVERYTHING he says must be taken with a grain of salt until proved.

I am also saying that the existance of a Rivalry Boost doesn't preclude other types of boost existing, possibly greater: even Elder Kai himself never stated the Rivalry Boost was the greatest boost.
I never implied they MUST exist, though.

I have a theory: Goku and Krillin potara fusion would be stronger than Goku and Vegeta because goku and krillin are best of friends and grew up as young boys together.

Nowhere this is said to be false, so it is a viable possibility.

I too believe goku was holding back against the kale but his constant "ssb is about perfect ki control" is one of the dumbest things i've ever seen.

Before episode 104, i could atleast justify it with "oh he just needs more power than ssj3" but then when ssg comes back it shits on that theory.

Imagine if vegeta used ssj2 vs pui pui but held back to power he could output in base, thats how dumb this concept is

Not really: Blue is simply better than God for everything except Stamina usage. And even that is not too much greater.(Manga plays it differently, obviously)

vs Berseker Kale, Goku wasn't at the point where he HAD to save stamina, so he preferred to swith to the vastly more versatile Blue that at the cost of some more stamina, which he still had in spades.

[Koitsukai]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

You do remember that base goku and base frieza defeated Jiren right?

True, but after Jiren was stomped by MUI Goku, almost finished by 17 and Freeza, already accepted his defeat and was brought back by Toppo's speech. He was clearly running on fumes by ep 131.
Manga Jiren on the other hand, did manage to catch up to MUI, and apparently beat him up without even shredding his clothes, ended up pretty much unscathed by the most OP version of Goku(although Vegeta says he is weakened... again, the coolest stuff happens offscreen). Mentally he is much more focused(no shattered strenght for Golden Freeza to make fun of) and definitely not running on fumes, far stronger than his anime ep 131 counterpart, he just knocked Goku out of MUI, like a second ago!!! It would be like if after knocking down MUI Goku for the first time, base Goku and base Freeza stood up to him with good results.

Also, I knew there was a good reason why they didn't reveal Jiren's wish in the anime: because it was lamer than one would've thought. I guess we all thought there would be much more to it.

[RecolorSaiyan]

>jiren was running on fumes in episode 131.


Ok after toppo gave him the words of encouragement, jiren got up and pushed out so much ki that GOLDEN freeza and A17 (two ssb tier fighters) were getting overwhelmed, in fact freeza dropped from gold to base. Then base goku came in and then jiren said "again you stand before me son goku" and powered up AGAIN , gohan ( a ssg-ssb tier fighter) to say "an amazing amount of ki has gathered. Vegeta himself said "he's gotten over his issues".

So powered up jiren > golden freeza and 17

that same jiren lose to BASE freeza and base goku (soon after his body broke down)

Lets not make up things to try and justify one version and shit on the other. If you read the english translation , whis clearly said ui was taking its toll on goku and that it was a battle of attrition. Jiren was able to outlast goku's ability to handle UI, nothing more. Vegeta even said he's considerably weaker now plus as belmod said he can't handle teamwork

[ZombieVito]

Removing UI which Goku probably won't be able to use whenever he wants, Vegeta is technically much stronger than him now in the manga with Evolved Blue.

Don't worry about it. Toyo will contradict himself again in the next chapter and have Goku > Vegeta.

It's hilarious the complete 180 Goku and Vegeta did this chapter.

[OhHiRenan]

What’s there to contradict? Nothing states or shows that Vegeta’s evolved SSB is any stronger than Goku’s weird pseudo SSB Kaioken from a few chapters ago.

[PFM18]

What’s there to contradict? Nothing states or shows that Vegeta’s evolved SSB is any stronger than Goku’s weird pseudo SSB Kaioken from a few chapters ago.

Goku used his brief psuedo Kaioken and people commented that it was stupid to use it and that was it, he stopped using it. Vegeta ACTUALLY got a power boost that made him able to actually perform much better than a normal MSSB. So yes, there's plenty to contradict and Toyotaro will find a way without much effort.

[Miracles]

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

The big thing that debunks Kale being Blue level is that her "controlled berserker SS", which was stated to be stronger than her "Broli mode", was being contested by a Super Saiyans 2 Goku with Caulifla pushing him to God.

We know Saiyans get stronger after battle as stated by Black in the Zamas arc. This plot theme continued ever since Dragonball.

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

You know, the two ideas of Kale being at and below SSB-level aren't mutually exclusive.

If we interpret her performances as a result of Berserk's fluctuating power, then both ideas can be satisfied without contradicting one another. In the initial rampage, Berserk Kale built up enough power to get some serious effort (albeit not the FULL extent) out of SSB Goku; later on, however, Berserk Kale didn't last long enough for her power to build up to god-level and thus was stuck somewhat below SSG Goku when she controlled it and made it her SS2 form.

I would say they are exclusive. it's either you are or ain't; it's black or white.

It comes down to something so objectively simple. Where in the story did it ever state Goku was holding back against Kale in Blue?
Consider the fact they wanted to save energy by not constantly fighting in Blue!
Vegeta, Toppo, Goku and Jiren acknowledged Kales power twice.
Consider that Goku used Blue when he was in a bind throughout the TOP and Kale was one of those times.
The manga has Kale do almost the same thing showing that she is around blue level too.

Where in the story does it ever state Goku was holding back against Krillin in blue?

When we have multiple fights between Goku and Krillin, and every time Goku is miles ahead of Krillin in much less powerful forms, we can draw some very easy and objective conclusions.

Same thing here with Kale. As a lot of other people are saying, Goku does much better against a more powerful version of Kale just episodes later, literally minutes later. We can than draw a very logical conclusion that Goku was in fact holding back against Kale. An in-story sentence isn't needed for the viewers to make such a simple deduction.

Yes an in story sentence is needed when you have other fighters on and above Goku's level of power like Toppo saying you can't underestimate Kale, Vegeta calling her a monster and Jiren acknowledging her twice. Also, we know Saiyans get stronger as they take damage continued from the original DB to Super, mentioned in the Black arc. This is why Goku is able to handle a stronger version of Kale. As for Krillin and Goku's fight...The power difference in blue was clearly noted, so we know Goku was holding. This example does not apply to Kale vs Blue Goku...

Spoiler:

[BlueBasilisk]

>jiren was running on fumes in episode 131.


Ok after toppo gave him the words of encouragement, jiren got up and pushed out so much ki that GOLDEN freeza and A17 (two ssb tier fighters) were getting overwhelmed, in fact freeza dropped from gold to base. Then base goku came in and then jiren said "again you stand before me son goku" and powered up AGAIN , gohan ( a ssg-ssb tier fighter) to say "an amazing amount of ki has gathered. Vegeta himself said "he's gotten over his issues".

So powered up jiren > golden freeza and 17

that same jiren lose to BASE freeza and base goku (soon after his body broke down)

Lets not make up things to try and justify one version and shit on the other. If you read the english translation , whis clearly said ui was taking its toll on goku and that it was a battle of attrition. Jiren was able to outlast goku's ability to handle UI, nothing more. Vegeta even said he's considerably weaker now plus as belmod said he can't handle teamwork

Jiren was still able to beat the shit out of both of them. After 17 blasted him into the pillar , he was able to withstand their combined attack and smacked them both away. He also was able to overpower Frieza's Death Crasher and was hulk smashing him one-handed until Goku got the drop on him and they shoved him out of the arena. Both the anime and the manga were doing the same thing with a strong fighter being overwhelmed by teamwork.

[1345521]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

You do remember that base goku and base frieza defeated Jiren right?

You do realize the dbs anime has thee worst power scailing out of any db continuity by a decent amount, right? Using that garbage to justify the manga is bad.

[1345521]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

Vegeta did say that Jiren was considerably weakened though, so I don't see how Toyo messed up here.

Spoiler:

BASE GOKU AND VEGETA (aka probably even weaker then perfect cell) are hurting Jiren! That's TERRIBLE power scailing. Maybe if they were in mssj blue and now could hurt Jiren, but even that's a stretch because Jiren powers shouldn't just drop off so quickly. Is his full power an energy drainer like old ssj blue and ssj3? Smh

[1345521]

Toyotaro has really just laid an egg in the manga. The power scailing is so hap-hazard now. Base Goku and vegeta are able to hurt to Jiren? MUI just comes out of nowhere with barley any build-up? Ugh. My version of the manga after chapter 38 would have been so much better. The power scailing would make sense and be way more exciting.

You do remember that base goku and base frieza defeated Jiren right?

True, but after Jiren was stomped by MUI Goku, almost finished by 17 and Freeza, already accepted his defeat and was brought back by Toppo's speech. He was clearly running on fumes by ep 131.
Manga Jiren on the other hand, did manage to catch up to MUI, and apparently beat him up without even shredding his clothes, ended up pretty much unscathed by the most OP version of Goku(although Vegeta says he is weakened... again, the coolest stuff happens offscreen). Mentally he is much more focused(no shattered strenght for Golden Freeza to make fun of) and definitely not running on fumes, far stronger than his anime ep 131 counterpart, he just knocked Goku out of MUI, like a second ago!!! It would be like if after knocking down MUI Goku for the first time, base Goku and base Freeza stood up to him with good results.

Also, I knew there was a good reason why they didn't reveal Jiren's wish in the anime: because it was lamer than one would've thought. I guess we all thought there would be much more to it.

Don't get it twisted, the anime power scailing was quite atrociously bad too, it's execution was just a little better

[Bullza]

I imagine this might get lost amongst all the manga chapter but there were two things I wanted to ask.

1. How strong was Base Goku Black after his power up? He seemed to completely tank all of Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's attacks, he blitzed him seemed to hurt him more with just one kick. He actually seems like he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

2. Does anyone have any explanation for why Base Goku Black would seemingly be hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku and yet Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is maybe two or three times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

[RecolorSaiyan]

I imagine this might get lost amongst all the manga chapter but there were two things I wanted to ask.

1. How strong was Base Goku Black after his power up? He seemed to completely tank all of Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta's attacks, he blitzed him seemed to hurt him more with just one kick. He actually seems like he'd be stronger than Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta.

2. Does anyone have any explanation for why Base Goku Black would seemingly be hundreds of times stronger than Base Goku and yet Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black is maybe two or three times as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Goku?

1. He was stronger than a hypothetical episode 56 ssg vegeta, vegeta wasn't using the full power of ssb as seen by him being able to fight ss rose black for a bit before getting stabbed

2. In the anime version, ss rose is goku blacks super saiyan form so in a way his "base" form would be a god ki enhanced base form or think of it as his ssg form.

so base black = 10
ss rose black = 500



ssg vegeta = 9
ssb vegeta = 450

Basically anime goku black only had 2 states : "base" and "super saiyan" but both used god ki or thats how i see it