Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Could Goku use the kaioken with Super Saiyan God?

considering ssb puts more strain on the body than god, and he could use it in blue, I say yes he just never felt the need to.

But unlike SSG, SSB was said to have great Ki control and a calm heart, which is why Goku could use it with Kaio-ken in the first place and not regular Super Saiyan, even though the normal Super Saiyan form has better stamina control.

[Bullza]

But Super Saiyan Blue is just supposed to be Super Saiyan God combined with Super Saiyan and considering Super Saiyan was the cause for why he couldn't use Kaioken with it before then you'd think he'd be able to achieve it even easier with Super Saiyan God.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But Super Saiyan Blue is just supposed to be Super Saiyan God combined with Super Saiyan and considering Super Saiyan was the cause for why he couldn't use Kaioken with it before then you'd think he'd be able to achieve it even easier with Super Saiyan God.

Like I said above, there's some special properties to SSB that SSG and SS don't possess, mainly the great Ki control and calm heart.

Presumably, these reasons are why SSB is stronger than SS or SSG but a bit more stamina-intense.

[TajinRice]

So how is Krillin the strongest Earthling if its never shown in the canon of the property? Battle of gods he runs in the movie and stands still in the show. Revival of Freeza in the movie needs to be saved by Gohan. In the series is PTSD and needs Tenshinhan to save him. Now the manga tournament of power he is eliminated without throwing a punch? I think we all understand Toriyamas outline did not include any of what went on with him in the recruitment arc. So I can only take the outline seriously. Not Toei exaggerating things to the point where Roshi "secret training" makes him SS1 tier.

[dbgtFO]

So how is Krillin the strongest Earthling if its never shown in the canon of the property?

He's strongest earthling for sentimental reasons, nothing more. It has always just been Toriyama throwing him a bone, because he's his favorite. That's also why he ended up married and started a family.
Clearly whoever is the strongest earthling is of little relevance to the plot anyways.

[TheGreatSaiyaman]

[spoiler]

I actually wrote a computer program to calculate the power levels of characters in DB super and I wanted to show you the results I got. I scaled each character off of each other by estimating the strength difference of each(For example I wrote the program saying that Golden Freeza from RoF is 10% stronger than Super Saiyan Blue/Goku and Vegeta) to prevent using absolutely outrageously large numbers I used a scale in which Goku's Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods is a 1. The numbers kind of fall apart during the ToP(It is just hard to get them to work) but I thought I would still see what you guys think.

Super Saiyan God Goku: 1.00
Base Goku with God Ki: 0.02
Super Saiyan Goku(God ki): 1.10
Super Saiyan Vegeta(ROF): 1.54
Super Saiyan Goku(ROF):1.54
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(ROF): 77.0
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(ROF): 77.0
Golden Frieza(ROF):84.70
Final Form Frieza(ROF): 0.02
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(U6): 96.25
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(U6): 96.25
Legendary Assassin Hit: 481.25
Zamasu Arc
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(pre-ROSAT): 288.75
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Zamasu Arc): 288.75
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 433.12
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(post-ROSAT): 721.88
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(post-Zamasu Arc): 577.5
Tournament of Power
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(ToP): 938.44
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(ToP): 808.5
True Golden Frieza: 807.69
Final Form Frieza: 0.23
Ultimate Gohan the Second Coming: 48.51
Android 17(ToP): 323.40
Kefla the Super Warrior: 121.28
Super Saiyan Kefla: 6063.75
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla: 12127.50
Toppo the Captain of the Pride Troopers: 1051.05
God of Destruction Toppo: 22522.50
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta: 28153.12
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(Final time): 33783.75
Full Power Jiren The Gray: 42229.69
Ultra Instinct Goku: 71790.47
Jiren The Gray(Limits Broken): 64611.42
God of Destruction Beerus: 38006.72

Base Goku during Revivial of F: 0.0
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 0.0
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 0.1
Base Goku during the Tournament of Power: 0.3

[/spoiler]
Everyone's about 10x stronger than Gohan, makes sense, after all, he's been pretty bad throughout DBS

[PFM18]

[spoiler]

I actually wrote a computer program to calculate the power levels of characters in DB super and I wanted to show you the results I got. I scaled each character off of each other by estimating the strength difference of each(For example I wrote the program saying that Golden Freeza from RoF is 10% stronger than Super Saiyan Blue/Goku and Vegeta) to prevent using absolutely outrageously large numbers I used a scale in which Goku's Super Saiyan God from Battle of Gods is a 1. The numbers kind of fall apart during the ToP(It is just hard to get them to work) but I thought I would still see what you guys think.

Super Saiyan God Goku: 1.00
Base Goku with God Ki: 0.02
Super Saiyan Goku(God ki): 1.10
Super Saiyan Vegeta(ROF): 1.54
Super Saiyan Goku(ROF):1.54
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(ROF): 77.0
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(ROF): 77.0
Golden Frieza(ROF):84.70
Final Form Frieza(ROF): 0.02
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(U6): 96.25
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(U6): 96.25
Legendary Assassin Hit: 481.25
Zamasu Arc
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(pre-ROSAT): 288.75
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(Zamasu Arc): 288.75
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black: 433.12
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(post-ROSAT): 721.88
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(post-Zamasu Arc): 577.5
Tournament of Power
Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta(ToP): 938.44
Super Saiyan Blue Goku(ToP): 808.5
True Golden Frieza: 807.69
Final Form Frieza: 0.23
Ultimate Gohan the Second Coming: 48.51
Android 17(ToP): 323.40
Kefla the Super Warrior: 121.28
Super Saiyan Kefla: 6063.75
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla: 12127.50
Toppo the Captain of the Pride Troopers: 1051.05
God of Destruction Toppo: 22522.50
Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta: 28153.12
Ultra Instinct Omen Goku(Final time): 33783.75
Full Power Jiren The Gray: 42229.69
Ultra Instinct Goku: 71790.47
Jiren The Gray(Limits Broken): 64611.42
God of Destruction Beerus: 38006.72

Base Goku during Revivial of F: 0.0
Base Goku during the Universe 6 Tournament: 0.0
Base Goku during the start of Goku Black: 0.1
Base Goku during the Tournament of Power: 0.3

[/spoiler]
Everyone's about 10x stronger than Gohan, makes sense, after all, he's been pretty bad throughout DBS

Yeah I mean I got that number by multiplying by 1.5x Goku's SSJ2 form since he kinda dominated Goku briefly in his ssj2 briefly if I recall correctly. I really dont think he is anywhere close to SSB though. All things considered He's extremely strong he is just weak compared to the stronger members in the ToP.

[Bullza]

Do you think the villain in the upcoming movie will be stronger or weaker than Jiren?

I remember when the 2015 movie was announced and then later when Frieza was said to be the villain, there was discussion on whether he would be stronger than the previous movies villain which was Beerus and he wasn't.

So what do you think?

[Marlowe89]

Do you think the villain in the upcoming movie will be stronger or weaker than Jiren?

I remember when the 2015 movie was announced and then later when Frieza was said to be the villain, there was discussion on whether he would be stronger than the previous movies villain which was Beerus and he wasn't.

So what do you think?

Depends on whether Ultra Instinct will make an appearance, and even that depends on whether Ultra Instinct Goku pulls a "Movie 12 Gogeta" where he just instantly annihilates the chief opponent or whether he struggles against him in that form.

However, the pattern seems to be that the current main antagonist succeeding the previous main antagonist within a subseries' own continuity is generally more powerful at peak strength. Beerus is the only exception I can think of at the moment.

[PFM18]

7 .

Do you think the villain in the upcoming movie will be stronger or weaker than Jiren?

I remember when the 2015 movie was announced and then later when Frieza was said to be the villain, there was discussion on whether he would be stronger than the previous movies villain which was Beerus and he wasn't.

So what do you think?

To me it solely depends on whether or not Ultra Instinct shows up or not. Because it still hasnt been established if he will be able to use it on command or not. If Ultra instinct isnt on the table Vegeta's SSBE is the biggest hitter. If UI isnt a thing in the movie then they could easily still make a threatening villian without making them stronger than Jiren. (Hopefully they dont go that route and Vegeta vanquishes the enemy) of course if UI is there they will pretty much need the villian to be stronger than Jiren to be threatening.

To me the more compelling question is if they could make a believable story where this villian could be pn Jiren's level. Especially if it ends up being a saiyan like it looks like it will be

[Bullza]

Yeah see I could see a similar scenario to Fusion Reborn too or Coolers Revenge or Bojack Unbound.

By the time Coolers Revenge came out, Goku had already used Super Saiyan extensively against Frieza but in that movie rather than bring it back for a full length fight scene, it was used for one brief scene where he quickly stomps the villain.

They also did the same with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan against Bojack.

So something like that could happen again.

Or just as they did with Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, they'll come out with something new that will be even more powerful still so to sell more merchandise and he'll be stronger than Jiren that way.

[Koitsukai]

I don't think is necessary or even a good idea to make the new enemy stronger than Jiren for him to be interesting or threatening. The gap between shirtless Jiren(and even full power Jiren) and our strongest non-UI fighterz is big enough to fit a new rival and Goku's final power up to defeat him.

I think it wouldn't be a good idea because it would take things to another dimension, powerwise, it would render absolutely every other character that's not an angel or a UI master useless, nerfing the Hakaishin, although Toriyama tends to nerf every godly position in the series. I really like the Hakaishin, i wouldn't like it if suddenly any new foe is above them all. But i guess it will happen eventually if the series goes on.

[brett wheeler]

Yeah see I could see a similar scenario to Fusion Reborn too or Coolers Revenge or Bojack Unbound.

By the time Coolers Revenge came out, Goku had already used Super Saiyan extensively against Frieza but in that movie rather than bring it back for a full length fight scene, it was used for one brief scene where he quickly stomps the villain.

They also did the same with Super Saiyan 2 Gohan against Bojack.

So something like that could happen again.

Or just as they did with Battle of Gods and Resurrection F, they'll come out with something new that will be even more powerful still so to sell more merchandise and he'll be stronger than Jiren that way.

probably wont have a stronger form, but I can see a gogeta situation it could go down like this, goku has been training since the tournament of power to reawaken UI ( since the last time required him to be pushed to the absolute limit and ended up backfiring because of it ), but hasn't succeeded while training a new saiyan from a different time emerges, this saiyan is absurdly strong maby even rivaling jiren ( before the buff power up ), while impressed with the strength of goku and vegeta he is ashamed of the good hearted nature of the saiyans, he wants the remaining saiyans to return to there roots of bloodthirsty warriors anything else would be unacceptable, goku and vegeta obviously dont agree with this idea, they have made it farther in strength with the way they are plus they just are not like that anymore and couldn't return to it if they wanted too, the saiyan enraged yells "FINE YOU WANT TO SEE REAL STRENGTH, ILL SHOW YOU REAL STRENGTH BY DESTROYING YOURE PRECIOUS EARTH", goku and vegeta are now in the fight of there life to protect earth from this blood thirsty berserk saiyan, goku in the midst of battle agian is pushed to UI he starts pumbling the saiyan with UI, goku trying to get this over with before UI back fires pushes with an ultimate godly display, but this saiyan is not giong to back down he ( much like jiren ) ramps up his power but not threw trauma but from pure saiyan zenkia and brutality, goku is worried the forms giong to expire any minute but in that instant he notices a calmness, its blissful but at the same time ferocious, goku calms himself and falls into it, in that moment he realizes the true nature of saiyans and that they truly have no limits, and upon this realization he takes control of UI, with it under his control he pushes back with power unseen previously from UI and defeats the evil saiyan with all his might. I think this story line could be possible or something similar honestly this is just me spit balling ideas for the movie keeping UI relevant, and keeping the GoDs somewhat relevant as well, since personally I believe jiren was at the peak of physical condition without UI or breaking youre limits, that peak being the realm of the GoDs, idk you think this is possible ( or something similar ).

[Nevaeh]

Do you think the villain in the upcoming movie will be stronger or weaker than Jiren?

I remember when the 2015 movie was announced and then later when Frieza was said to be the villain, there was discussion on whether he would be stronger than the previous movies villain which was Beerus and he wasn't.

So what do you think?

That was an outlier. New villains/antagonists are always stronger so whoever the villain is will definitely be > Jiren

[aitrai]

But unlike SSG, SSB was said to have great Ki control and a calm heart, which is why Goku could use it with Kaio-ken in the first place and not regular Super Saiyan, even though the normal Super Saiyan form has better stamina control.
link video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Dyrq-pFOE&t=15s

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

But unlike SSG, SSB was said to have great Ki control and a calm heart, which is why Goku could use it with Kaio-ken in the first place and not regular Super Saiyan, even though the normal Super Saiyan form has better stamina control.
link video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Dyrq-pFOE&t=15s

That's clearly a quote of one of my posts (even though it's not properly quoted)..... So what are you saying? I'm not getting what you're selling.

[brett wheeler]

But unlike SSG, SSB was said to have great Ki control and a calm heart, which is why Goku could use it with Kaio-ken in the first place and not regular Super Saiyan, even though the normal Super Saiyan form has better stamina control.
link video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4Dyrq-pFOE&t=15s

well its implied that to get god ki normally in general you need near perfect ki control and a calm mind, goku couldn't reawaken ssg after the fight with beerus at first but after training with whis he can not only reawaken it but add ssj ontop of it, this says that goku needed to train in ki control to activate ssg of his own free will, so if thats the case then we can assume he can stack kiaoken with it, he just hasnt, I'm assuming he doesnt due to a couple reasons ( other than the animators dont want to add red ki on red ki like that or make his body much redder than what ssg does in general ), one could be that ssb gives a bigger multiplier to ssg than kaioken could even with 20*, or goku just hasn't thought it was much of a difference than ssb in general and causes more stress to the body, plus he can stack it with ssb a stronger form so whats the point.

[Bullza]

So I didn't see anyone make any comments based on the newest manga chapter where yet so here's a few observations.

- Gohan sort of holds his own against the Trio De Dangers. Sorta like Goku did in the anime.

- Tien fires a Trip Beam directly as Frost that doesn't do squat. Considering the weaker Tien was able to repeatedly hold back Semi Perfect Cell then it shows Frost is much much stronger (though I'm sure we all knew that anyway).

- Piccolo seems to have greater trouble against weaker members of the Universe 9 team (well they were in the anime at least), not sure if that puts him below the Base Saiyans or not.

- Frost is stronger than everyone on the Universe 9 team. So he's above Piccolo and the Base Saiyans but he's below Super Saiyan level.

- Piccolo handily defeated Bergamo. In the anime Bergamo was on the same level as Base Goku.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I think jiren will be almost identical to the situation with beerus. What I mean is that it’s probably going to take more than just a movie to introduce a villian stronger than jiren. Maybe the villian gets the same threatment cooler received, once goku goes MUI in the end, it’s a stomp.

[Hugo Boss]

- Tien fires a Trip Beam directly as Frost that doesn't do squat. Considering the weaker Tien was able to repeatedly hold back Semi Perfect Cell then it shows Frost is much much stronger (though I'm sure we all knew that anyway).

- Piccolo seems to have greater trouble against weaker members of the Universe 9 team (well they were in the anime at least), not sure if that puts him below the Base Saiyans or not.

That was only the normal Tri Beam though. Tien used a stronger version on Cell, which still didn’t inflict damage.

Piccolo said the bulky guy was strong, but he was against three fighters as well, while he could handle Bergamo alone.