Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Saturnine]

Yeah, base Freeza is probably meant to be at SSj God Goku level. They've also had mirroring performance against Dyspo, which corroborates that.

[dragon boss z]

I mean that Jiren can easily bodied Goku and Vegeta, yet he's shown fighting Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as almost an equal. Then there was Vegeta last week.

Ya Jiren's power has been inconsistent. Tbh it mostly comes from them making him too OP in the special. Besides ep 109 and 110 Jiren hasn't seemed nearly that strong.

Toppo at his full power is supposed on par with Blue Kaioken and he should easily ring out Gohan and 17 in seconds, yet he's toying with them.

We don't know that. Toppo was losing to Blue Goku, then both powered up but never fought. For all we know Toppo would of lost badly to kaioken Goku. So he may or may not be kaioken level. Either way I don't think Toppo is even using his full power on Gohan and 17 yet. He is probably using the power he used on Blue Goku.

Hit took attacks from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, so how is between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? And Dyspo in the NEP is fighting Ultimate Gohan, so are you saying that final form Freeza in comparable to that?

Him taking the attacks were PIS. Kaioken seems to barely change anything. We just saw with the last episode how SSB Goku was fighting almost evenly with a powered up Jiren, then he goes kaioken x20 and Vegeta joins in and barely anything changes. We know Hit is weaker than Blue because when they clashed in the U6 tournament Hit was being pushed back and he only overcame Goku by increasing hit time skip.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[HeroR]

I mean that Jiren can easily bodied Goku and Vegeta, yet he's shown fighting Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku as almost an equal. Then there was Vegeta last week.

Ya Jiren's power has been inconsistent. Tbh it mostly comes from them making him too OP in the special. Besides ep 109 and 110 Jiren hasn't seemed nearly that strong.

Toppo at his full power is supposed on par with Blue Kaioken and he should easily ring out Gohan and 17 in seconds, yet he's toying with them.

We don't know that. Toppo was losing to Blue Goku, then both powered up but never fought. For all we know Toppo would of lost badly to kaioken Goku. So he may or may not be kaioken level. Either way I don't think Toppo is even using his full power on Gohan and 17 yet. He is probably using the power he used on Blue Goku.

Hit took attacks from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan Goku, so how is between Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan? And Dyspo in the NEP is fighting Ultimate Gohan, so are you saying that final form Freeza in comparable to that?

Him taking the attacks were PIS. Kaioken seems to barely change anything. We just saw with the last episode how SSB Goku was fighting almost evenly with a powered up Jiren, then he goes kaioken x20 and Vegeta joins in and barely anything changes. We know Hit is weaker than Blue because when they clashed in the U6 tournament Hit was being pushed back and he only overcame Goku by increasing hit time skip.

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Not really since Vegeta noted that Jiren wasn't as strong as he was before, just before Jiren smashed him into the floor. He was also told to crushed Goku, so he crushed him. Now, he seems to actual wants to fight.

Goku was ready to used the Kaioken against Toppo when he finally got serious and said to Vegeta that he wasn't sure if he could win with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So that indicates that Goku thought normal Blue wouldn't be enough at that moment. Or could have been overkill like Begoma and he was wanking Toppo to Vegeta so he would be in the tournament, but I don't think that was the case. I would say at the very least, Toppo when he isn't dicking is at least on par with Blue Kaioken x2.

Someone taking attacks and shown to be able to do it constantly isn't PIS. He took shoots from Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan in the Champa Saga and in their rematch when he was stronger. He was also able to hurt Goku and Vegeta in their full god forms, which wouldn't have happened if he was vastly weaker than them or was only up to par with Super Saiyan God. Even with Dypso, Goku couldn't beat him with Super Saiyan God, which is why he switched to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan to attack.

Pure power-wise, Hit is only slightly weaker than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It isn't by a huge amount.

[apex_pretador]

hit, dyspo, freeza

Some of my thoughts on this:

- Hit seems more vulnerable while performing a time-skip. I think that's why he was hurt by dyspo so much.
Even base Goku was able to scratch him in U6 tourney.

- Freeza is naturally exceptionally durable. While other characters depend on their ki levels for their durability, Freeza's own body is so incredibly tough that he can no-sell planet-busting with 0 ki left, cut in half and most of his remains burnt by SS Goku's Kamehameha. He can survive in space unaided, survive as pieces etc. Like Superman, if you punch Freeza full force from behind, you'd likely break your hand.

- Dyspo is just below SS1 Goku in pure power/strength, comparing from Maji Kayo. However, his speed gives him a lot of striking power.

[HeroR]

hit, dyspo, freeza

Some of my thoughts on this:

- Hit seems more vulnerable while performing a time-skip. I think that's why he was hurt by dyspo so much.
Even base Goku was able to scratch him in U6 tourney.

- Freeza is naturally exceptionally durable. While other characters depend on their ki levels for their durability, Freeza's own body is so incredibly tough that he can no-sell planet-busting with 0 ki left, cut in half and most of his remains burnt by SS Goku's Kamehameha. He can survive in space unaided, survive as pieces etc. Like Superman, if you punch Freeza full force from behind, you'd likely break your hand.

- Dyspo is just below SS1 Goku in pure power/strength, comparing from Maji Kayo. However, his speed gives him a lot of striking power.

Someone being below Super Saiyan Goku in pure power wouldn't hurt Super Saiyan God Goku in 104 and make him switch to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or be given Ultimate Gohan problem who traded blows with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Speed alone wouldn't make up the power different as Recoome stated back in the Freeza Saga when he thought Goku had a power level of 5,000 and was just fast.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

hit, dyspo, freeza

Some of my thoughts on this:

- Hit seems more vulnerable while performing a time-skip. I think that's why he was hurt by dyspo so much.
Even base Goku was able to scratch him in U6 tourney.

- Freeza is naturally exceptionally durable. While other characters depend on their ki levels for their durability, Freeza's own body is so incredibly tough that he can no-sell planet-busting with 0 ki left, cut in half and most of his remains burnt by SS Goku's Kamehameha. He can survive in space unaided, survive as pieces etc. Like Superman, if you punch Freeza full force from behind, you'd likely break your hand.

- Dyspo is just below SS1 Goku in pure power/strength, comparing from Maji Kayo. However, his speed gives him a lot of striking power.

Someone being below Super Saiyan Goku in pure power wouldn't hurt Super Saiyan God Goku in 104 and make him switch to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or be given Ultimate Gohan problem who traded blows with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Speed alone wouldn't make up the power different as Recoome stated back in the Freeza Saga when he thought Goku had a power level of 5,000 and was just fast.

And simply having your guard down in SSB form wouldn't make you vulnerable to an ordinary laser, either.

The "rules" have been relaxed to allow for more interesting matchups that don't entirely depend on power, and I personally think that's for the better

[HeroR]

And simply having your guard down in SSB form wouldn't make you vulnerable to an ordinary laser, either.

The "rules" have been relaxed to allow for more interesting matchups that don't entirely depend on power, and I personally think that's for the better

There are in the middle of the battle. Where would anyone have time to relaxed their guard? This isn't like with Sorbet had to sneak on Goku and shoot him in the back when Goku thought he won against Freeza.

Again, someone being Super Saiyan Goku's level of power, isn't going to hurt or pushed Goku into Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan even briefly if a full on match. Nor would Goku say, 'this guy is strong'.

[apex_pretador]

Some of my thoughts on this:

- Hit seems more vulnerable while performing a time-skip. I think that's why he was hurt by dyspo so much.
Even base Goku was able to scratch him in U6 tourney.

- Freeza is naturally exceptionally durable. While other characters depend on their ki levels for their durability, Freeza's own body is so incredibly tough that he can no-sell planet-busting with 0 ki left, cut in half and most of his remains burnt by SS Goku's Kamehameha. He can survive in space unaided, survive as pieces etc. Like Superman, if you punch Freeza full force from behind, you'd likely break your hand.

- Dyspo is just below SS1 Goku in pure power/strength, comparing from Maji Kayo. However, his speed gives him a lot of striking power.

Someone being below Super Saiyan Goku in pure power wouldn't hurt Super Saiyan God Goku in 104 and make him switch to Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan or be given Ultimate Gohan problem who traded blows with Super Saiyan 2 Goku.

Speed alone wouldn't make up the power different as Recoome stated back in the Freeza Saga when he thought Goku had a power level of 5,000 and was just fast.

Dyspois much faster than blue goku

[HeroR]

Dyspois much faster than blue goku

Being faster doesn't mean his attacks should have hurt Goku, especially if he's only Super Saiyan level to Goku's Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan, and we see him trading hands with Ultimate Gohan in the preview.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku also shouldn't have done as well as he did against Caulifla with that logic, nor should Krillin against Goku during his recruitment, nor should Piccolo's Makankkosappo have been able to pierce through Saonel and Pirina.

Thanks to Dyspo's speed, he can land solid blows easily. A solid blow in the tournament has almost always resulted in the fighter on the receiving end getting the wind knocked out of them and them being thrown back, or at the very least feeling the blow.

It's basically the idea of having one's guard down expanded into general combat. We also see this with Jiren. In episode 122, Vegeta lands multiple blows on him when he's specifically tanking such an assault. Once he goes on the offensive and becomes more generally combat savvy, Vegeta manages to catch him with a few solid blows thanks to him reading Jiren's movement patterns and actually briefly knocks the wind out of him.

Basically, if a character doesn't go out of their way to take hits and/or vastly overpowers his/her opponent to a MASSIVE degree (upwards of hundreds of times) and/or has a specific ability to take hits well like a strong body composition, then any blows WILL be felt.

[HeroR]

Goku also shouldn't have done as well as he did against Caulifla with that logic, nor should Krillin against Goku during his recruitment, nor should Piccolo's Makankkosappo have been able to pierce through Saonel and Pirina.

Thanks to Dyspo's speed, he can land solid blows easily. A solid blow in the tournament has almost always resulted in the fighter on the receiving end getting the wind knocked out of them and them being thrown back, or at the very least feeling the blow.

It's basically the idea of having one's guard down expanded into general combat. We also see this with Jiren. In episode 122, Vegeta lands multiple blows on him when he's specifically tanking such an assault. Once he goes on the offensive and becomes more generally combat savvy, Vegeta manages to catch him with a few solid blows thanks to him reading Jiren's movement patterns and actually briefly knocks the wind out of him.

Basically, if a character doesn't go out of their way to take hits and/or vastly overpowers his/her opponent to a MASSIVE degree (upwards of hundreds of times) and/or has a specific ability to take hits well like a strong body composition, then any blows WILL be felt.

There is a different between someone using space well vs someone hitting someone more powerful because they're faster. Especially if you're saying that Dypso is over 200 times weaker. It would be like Goku being faster than Jiren and pushing him, which isn't happening.

Having one guard down doesn't happen in live comeback. You can create openings or throw people off, but you're not going to get a Sorbet moment. And Jiren was purposely fighting at Vegeta's level, as Vegeta himself noted.

[ZombieVito]

You know what the funny thing is? That both Piccolo and Roshi commented on Vegeta's ki in this episode. Since when can they sense godly ki though? What a shameful oversight.

I wouldn't be so sure. Roshi's comment can be interpreted as him just commenting on his color change.

Piccolo is describing the energy as boundless, so he definitely felt it.

[Draconic]

You know what the funny thing is? That both Piccolo and Roshi commented on Vegeta's ki in this episode. Since when can they sense godly ki though? What a shameful oversight.

I wouldn't be so sure. Roshi's comment can be interpreted as him just commenting on his color change.

Piccolo is describing the energy as boundless, so he definitely felt it.

To add to this, Vegeta was down for the count prior to his power up, so Roshi's comment does seem to be more in line with "wow, he's got his energy back", which is obvious even without feeling his Ki.

Piccolo on the other hand starts to go into the details of what is actually happening and explain the difference between his old and new levels of power, which would be impossible if he weren't able to sense it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

You know what the funny thing is? That both Piccolo and Roshi commented on Vegeta's ki in this episode. Since when can they sense godly ki though? What a shameful oversight.

I wouldn't be so sure. Roshi's comment can be interpreted as him just commenting on his color change.

Piccolo is describing the energy as boundless, so he definitely felt it.

To add to this, Vegeta was down for the count prior to his power up, so Roshi's comment does seem to be more in line with "wow, he's got his energy back", which is obvious even without feeling his Ki.

Piccolo on the other hand starts to go into the details of what is actually happening and explain the difference between his old and new levels of power, which would be impossible if he weren't able to sense it.

Well, we have to remember that he fused with Kami years back, an actual god. We see that in the anime adaptation of Battle of Gods, besides Dende, he's the only one of the group able to get a feel for who Beerus really is. Since he isn't a god like Dende, though, he doesn't seem to be quite able to sense God Ki.

It could be that, after A LOT of training that pushes to heights never thought possible, this newfound power, along with Kami's presence within him, he may have learned how to sense God Ki.

That, or he's just using his eyes and the pressure of God Ki to gauge things.

[dragon boss z]

Not really since Vegeta noted that Jiren wasn't as strong as he was before, just before Jiren smashed him into the floor. He was also told to crushed Goku, so he crushed him. Now, he seems to actual wants to fight.

That was last episode. this episode Jiren powered up with red ki (we never even saw him do this before) and Goku matched him (kind of) with SSB.

Goku was ready to used the Kaioken against Toppo when he finally got serious and said to Vegeta that he wasn't sure if he could win with Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. So that indicates that Goku thought normal Blue wouldn't be enough at that moment. Or could have been overkill like Begoma and he was wanking Toppo to Vegeta so he would be in the tournament, but I don't think that was the case. I would say at the very least, Toppo when he isn't dicking is at least on par with Blue Kaioken x2.

Maybe, I think we'll find out more in ep 25.

Pure power-wise, Hit is only slightly weaker than Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan. It isn't by a huge amount.

I agree. If SSG was a 1, Hit would be a 4 and SSB would be a 5 imo.

[Saturnine]

About Hit, it depends what era SSj Blue you're talking about. I believe he was at least as strong or stronger initially than SSj Blue Goku and Vegeta from the RoF arc at the very least. Nothing has changed, people can still get stronger through training, no such thing as transformation-based tiers exist anymore (they barely ever have, chronological eras were always more accurate).

[Bullza]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

[Rally 07]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

Hit was allowing himself to be hit by Dysport to figure out a way to counter Dysports' speed and attacks. He was attacking Hit with great speed and powerful attacks. Hit had to figure out a method to keep up with Dysport and then a counter for his attacks.
And with Freeza, Dysport starting out dragging Freeza by his tail and later Freeza telling him that swinging and dragging him around isn't doing much damage to him.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

I would say that Dyspo is simply holding back, after all, Freeza base is not so powerful (in the next episode Dyspo is with Aura)

In EP 121, Freeza himself said he was weaker than Goku SSG and so Aniraza was chasing him first.

About Hit, it depends what era SSj Blue you're talking about. I believe he was at least as strong or stronger initially than SSj Blue Goku and Vegeta from the RoF arc at the very least. Nothing has changed, people can still get stronger through training, no such thing as transformation-based tiers exist anymore (they barely ever have, chronological eras were always more accurate).

Well, I guess that's relative. We would need to know the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta SSB from RoF to Goku and Vegeta SSB from the Champa tournament.

I would not say that Goku SSB in the tournament was much stronger than Hitto, but there was a considerable and noticeable difference. He could clearly dominate the battle and inflict damage on Hitto, forcing him to '' evolve ''

[ZombieVito]

To add to this, Vegeta was down for the count prior to his power up, so Roshi's comment does seem to be more in line with "wow, he's got his energy back", which is obvious even without feeling his Ki.

Piccolo on the other hand starts to go into the details of what is actually happening and explain the difference between his old and new levels of power, which would be impossible if he weren't able to sense it.

It's very interesting. Maybe Piccolo is indeed SS2 tier.

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

Well, Freeza did survive a planet exploding on him with barely any (if not zero) ki left.

Also, Freeza did get hurt but was minimal.