Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[ZombieVito]

Because this is redundant. Kaioken is his limit-breaking power. In episode 123 Goku used it at full power, probably at 20-fold.

How is he breaking his limits with Kaioken again? He already mastered KKx20. He was also fighting a stronger Jiren than the one he fought in E109 with KKx20 and did way better.

[PFM18]

Because this is redundant. Kaioken is his limit-breaking power. In episode 123 Goku used it at full power, probably at 20-fold.

How is he breaking his limits with Kaioken again? He already mastered KKx20. He was also fighting a stronger Jiren than the one he fought in E109 with KKx20 and did way better.

He was also fighting alongside Vegeta and not one on one

[Hugo Boss]

Because this is redundant. Kaioken is his limit-breaking power. In episode 123 Goku used it at full power, probably at 20-fold.

How is he breaking his limits with Kaioken again? He already mastered KKx20. He was also fighting a stronger Jiren than the one he fought in E109 with KKx20 and did way better.

Kaioken is a limit-breaking technique by definition. He isn’t using a stronger version of it, since none called it.

[Bullza]

Where would place Super Saiyan Blue Vegito Kaioken and Kanba within the rest of the characters?

Both would be above Beerus right if he's only about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito? So stronger than Jiren? Weaker?

[Miracles]

Because this is redundant. Kaioken is his limit-breaking power. In episode 123 Goku used it at full power, probably at 20-fold.

How is he breaking his limits with Kaioken again? He already mastered KKx20. He was also fighting a stronger Jiren than the one he fought in E109 with KKx20 and did way better.

He was also fighting alongside Vegeta and not one on one

The difference is, KKBlue Goku was able to KEEP UP with a limit breaking Vegeta and endure against a stronger Jiren. When before, KKX20 Blue was completely pwned by a weaker Jiren in the special.

[PFM18]

How is he breaking his limits with Kaioken again? He already mastered KKx20. He was also fighting a stronger Jiren than the one he fought in E109 with KKx20 and did way better.

He was also fighting alongside Vegeta and not one on one

The difference is, KKBlue Goku was able to KEEP UP with a limit breaking Vegeta and endure against a stronger Jiren. When before, KKX20 Blue was completely pwned by a weaker Jiren in the special.

I really don't see how being able to keep up with SSBE Vegeta is any indication that he got stronger during this time. That makes absolutely no sense considering that Vegeta was arbitrarily stronger and the way people usually scale him is that he appeared even with SSBKK Goku. You can't use both to scale each other. And again, any performance improvements against Jiren could be attributed to this fight being a 2v1 where the other one obviously it was just him

[Miracles]

He was also fighting alongside Vegeta and not one on one

The difference is, KKBlue Goku was able to KEEP UP with a limit breaking Vegeta and endure against a stronger Jiren. When before, KKX20 Blue was completely pwned by a weaker Jiren in the special.

I really don't see how being able to keep up with SSBE Vegeta is any indication that he got stronger during this time. That makes absolutely no sense considering that Vegeta was arbitrarily stronger and the way people usually scale him is that he appeared even with SSBKK Goku. You can't use both to scale each other. And again, any performance improvements against Jiren could be attributed to this fight being a 2v1 where the other one obviously it was just him

This is DB, it doesn't matter if it's two on one, if you are not in the pay grade, you will get casually pwned in a few blows [check Caulifla and Kale vs Red Goku]. This shows Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku cause Goku and Vegeta's efforts were EQUAL against a stronger Jiren.

[PFM18]

The difference is, KKBlue Goku was able to KEEP UP with a limit breaking Vegeta and endure against a stronger Jiren. When before, KKX20 Blue was completely pwned by a weaker Jiren in the special.

I really don't see how being able to keep up with SSBE Vegeta is any indication that he got stronger during this time. That makes absolutely no sense considering that Vegeta was arbitrarily stronger and the way people usually scale him is that he appeared even with SSBKK Goku. You can't use both to scale each other. And again, any performance improvements against Jiren could be attributed to this fight being a 2v1 where the other one obviously it was just him

This is DB, it doesn't matter if it's two on one, if you are not in the pay grade, you will get casually pwned in a few blows [check Caulifla and Kale vs Red Goku]. This shows Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku cause Goku and Vegeta's efforts were EQUAL against a stronger Jiren.

Yeah this means that Vegeta wasn't stronger but you seem to somehow be concluding that since Goku was even with Vegeta, then he must have gotten stronger. Vegeta's power is very vague outside of it being equal to Goku. People usually quantify it by saying he is equal to SSBKKx20 Goku. So again, You can't both off of each other from the same scene that just leads to circular reasoning.

[Miracles]

I really don't see how being able to keep up with SSBE Vegeta is any indication that he got stronger during this time. That makes absolutely no sense considering that Vegeta was arbitrarily stronger and the way people usually scale him is that he appeared even with SSBKK Goku. You can't use both to scale each other. And again, any performance improvements against Jiren could be attributed to this fight being a 2v1 where the other one obviously it was just him

This is DB, it doesn't matter if it's two on one, if you are not in the pay grade, you will get casually pwned in a few blows [check Caulifla and Kale vs Red Goku]. This shows Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku cause Goku and Vegeta's efforts were EQUAL against a stronger Jiren.

Yeah this means that Vegeta wasn't stronger but you seem to somehow be concluding that since Goku was even with Vegeta, then he must have gotten stronger. Vegeta's power is very vague outside of it being equal to Goku. People usually quantify it by saying he is equal to SSBKKx20 Goku. So again, You can't both off of each other from the same scene that just leads to circular reasoning.

This Goku is able to take blows from a stronger Jiren when he got lol walloped by a weaker Jiren before. Yet you want me to believe this is the same Goku from the special who is able to trade blows with an even more powered up Jiren?

[PFM18]

This is DB, it doesn't matter if it's two on one, if you are not in the pay grade, you will get casually pwned in a few blows [check Caulifla and Kale vs Red Goku]. This shows Vegeta wasn't stronger than Goku cause Goku and Vegeta's efforts were EQUAL against a stronger Jiren.

Yeah this means that Vegeta wasn't stronger but you seem to somehow be concluding that since Goku was even with Vegeta, then he must have gotten stronger. Vegeta's power is very vague outside of it being equal to Goku. People usually quantify it by saying he is equal to SSBKKx20 Goku. So again, You can't both off of each other from the same scene that just leads to circular reasoning.

This Goku is able to take blows from a stronger Jiren when he got lol walloped by a weaker Jiren before. Yet you want me to believe this is the same Goku from the special who is able to trade blows with an even more powered up Jiren?

Ok that is entirely separate than what you said about Vegeta. I am asking about why you brought up Vegeta because I genuinely don't understand how that makes any sense.

[Miracles]

Yeah this means that Vegeta wasn't stronger but you seem to somehow be concluding that since Goku was even with Vegeta, then he must have gotten stronger. Vegeta's power is very vague outside of it being equal to Goku. People usually quantify it by saying he is equal to SSBKKx20 Goku. So again, You can't both off of each other from the same scene that just leads to circular reasoning.

This Goku is able to take blows from a stronger Jiren when he got lol walloped by a weaker Jiren before. Yet you want me to believe this is the same Goku from the special who is able to trade blows with an even more powered up Jiren?

Ok that is entirely separate than what you said about Vegeta. I am asking about why you brought up Vegeta because I genuinely don't understand how that makes any sense.

U brought up Vegeta trying to say that the only reason why Goku was able to take blows from a more powerful Jiren was cause he had Vegeta's help.

[PFM18]

This Goku is able to take blows from a stronger Jiren when he got lol walloped by a weaker Jiren before. Yet you want me to believe this is the same Goku from the special who is able to trade blows with an even more powered up Jiren?

Ok that is entirely separate than what you said about Vegeta. I am asking about why you brought up Vegeta because I genuinely don't understand how that makes any sense.

U brought up Vegeta trying to say that the only reason why Goku was able to take blows from a more powerful Jiren was cause he had Vegeta's help.

This isn't about the "blows" per say but rather the overall fight and the outcome being more even. Goku had somebody equally as strong as him fighting alongside him so naturally that would give Jiren a harder time.

[ZombieVito]

Where would place Super Saiyan Blue Vegito Kaioken and Kanba within the rest of the characters?

Both would be above Beerus right if he's only about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito? So stronger than Jiren? Weaker?

Vegetto with Kaioken should be above any angel with probably the exception of the GP. Jiren stands no chance.

Kanba is the masked Saiyan right?

[freak27]

There is no way Vegetta's Blue 2 to be equal to SSBKKx20!!

Ssj2 is 2 times stronger than Ssj1 and Ssj3 is 2 times stronger than Ssj2. Kaioken has 19 levels before reaching Kaioken x20 and decades of training to do so and we are to believe that Vegetta's Blue variation gained instantly 20x multiplier????

Get out!!!!!

[Bullza]

Vegetto with Kaioken should be above any angel with probably the exception of the GP. Jiren stands no chance.

Kanba is the masked Saiyan right?

Yeah he is. I suppose it's hard to say actually considering we wouldn't know what fold of Kaioken he uses or really have any idea how strong Whis is.

[ZombieVito]

Yeah he is. I suppose it's hard to say actually considering we wouldn't know what fold of Kaioken he uses or really have any idea how strong Whis is.

There's nothing that indicates that Toriyama's numbers for Beerus and Whis (15 vs 10) aren't valid still. Only SSG Goku got nerfed.

[GodVegetto91]

There is no way Vegetta's Blue 2 to be equal to SSBKKx20!!

Ssj2 is 2 times stronger than Ssj1 and Ssj3 is 2 times stronger than Ssj2. Kaioken has 19 levels before reaching Kaioken x20 and decades of training to do so and we are to believe that Vegetta's Blue variation gained instantly 20x multiplier????

Get out!!!!!

But it is. In fact, i’m willing to argue he’s even stronger than 20 times SSJ Blue based on feats. Heck he even gained another power-up in that form and beat a God of Destruction. Things don’t have to work the same here like they did with the old Super Saiyan forms from back than. Times have changed. Besides, we’re on Kanzenshuu here. So it’s probably best if you toned it down a bit if you don’t want any trouble with the mods. Just a tip.

[BlueBasilisk]

It didn't take Goku decades to master the Kaioken anyway. He trained with King Kai for less than 6 months and could max out at 4 before it took a toll on him. He got to 20 after training for 6 days on the way to Namek. Then he stopped using it until the Universe 6 arc. It was what, a year or so between him using SSBKKx10 against Hit and x20 in the ToP?

[Bullza]

There's nothing that indicates that Toriyama's numbers for Beerus and Whis (15 vs 10) aren't valid still. Only SSG Goku got nerfed.

There isn't but I wouldn't say they'd be above an Angel. That's going to be a whole other plateau of strength where they'll point it out when it happens.

Like how they hyped Jiren up because he was the first one to be above a God of Destruction, they'll probably get to a point where they'll do the same for an Angel.

Kanba is about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito with the Kaioken from the looks of it so we'll have to see how that all turns out. Maybe Goku will go Ultra Instinct for him or something.

[Hugo Boss]

Kanba is about as strong as Super Saiyan Blue Vegito with the Kaioken from the looks of it so we'll have to see how that all turns out. Maybe Goku will go Ultra Instinct for him or something.

Apparently Kanba has a Super Saiyan form. If it took Vegetto Blue to use kaioken to measure up to Kanba, most likely SS Kanba will surpass anyone Goku fought in his life.