Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Miracles
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 6:17 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It isn't stated anywhere that the Gods of Destruction have different states and the fact that you're even saying this shows that didn't even come close to properly interpreting the story. The God of Destruction state is labeled as one state and it applies to everyone that's a God of Destruction.

All of the Gods of Destruction are Gods of Destruction. So surpassing the God of Destruction state means that Jiren is above anything that's a God of Destruction since he's above that state of being. None of the Gods of Destruction by definition have transcended the state of God of Destruction. Stop trying to rewrite the dictionary. It only makes your argument look more ridiculous.
No one is saying the hakaishin have "transcended the state of the gods of destruction" but the level of EACH god is different. Otherwise it wouldn't have been stated that Jiren ONLY...ONLY surpassed Belmound. If Belmound was equal to every other god they would have stated Jiren is stronger than each and every god. Just like there are two SSJG level beings but we know they both VARY in power. Freeza "withstood" a bigger destruction ball from Toppo but also struggled with just a small amount of energy from Sidra. Freeza didn't care about facing god Toppo but was scared to lift a finger against Beerus. It is shown there are levels to states of power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri May 25, 2018 6:20 pm

Miracles wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:It isn't stated anywhere that the Gods of Destruction have different states and the fact that you're even saying this shows that didn't even come close to properly interpreting the story. The God of Destruction state is labeled as one state and it applies to everyone that's a God of Destruction.

All of the Gods of Destruction are Gods of Destruction. So surpassing the God of Destruction state means that Jiren is above anything that's a God of Destruction since he's above that state of being. None of the Gods of Destruction by definition have transcended the state of God of Destruction. Stop trying to rewrite the dictionary. It only makes your argument look more ridiculous.
No one is saying the hakaishin have "transcended the state of the gods of destruction" but the level of EACH god is different. Otherwise it wouldn't have been stated that Jiren ONLY...ONLY surpassed Belmound. If Belmound was equal to every other god they would have stated Jiren is stronger than each and every god. Just like there are two SSJG level beings but we know they both VARY in power. Freeza "withstood" a bigger destruction ball from Toppo but also struggled with just a small amount of energy from Sidra. Freeza didn't care about facing god Toppo but was scared to lift a finger against Beerus. It is shown there are levels to states of power.
If none of the Gods have transcended the state of God of Destruction then you don't have an argument. The definition of the statement is clear cut. It was already stated that Jiren eclipses their state of being. This "Gods have different levels" nonsense you're purporting isn't relevant in the slightest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 25, 2018 6:24 pm

You do know you guys arent going to progress to a point, right? Might as well pospone this debate till we get more info on the manga. None of you are going to change your minds. Its basically like the ss kefla rivaling a spirit bomb debate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 6:27 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:If none of the Gods have transcended the state of God of Destruction then you don't have an argument. The definition of the statement is clear cut. It was already stated that Jiren eclipses their state of being. This "Gods have different levels" nonsense you're purporting isn't relevant in the slightest.
Actually it is the only relevant truth cause Jiren only surpassed ONE god, not all gods.
This is a fact that proves "the state of a god" is a singular statement and not a definite one for all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri May 25, 2018 6:37 pm

Miracles wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:If none of the Gods have transcended the state of God of Destruction then you don't have an argument. The definition of the statement is clear cut. It was already stated that Jiren eclipses their state of being. This "Gods have different levels" nonsense you're purporting isn't relevant in the slightest.
Actually it is the only relevant truth cause Jiren only surpassed ONE god, not all gods.
This is a fact that proves "the state of a god" is a singular statement and not a definite one for all.
He surpasses the God of Destruction state of being as stated, so he surpasses the tier as a whole by definition. If someone is a God of Destruction then it applies by definition. No ifs and or buts. Not interested in spoonfeeding someone incapable of properly reading a simple sentence.
It wouldn't matter even if the strongest god was 1,000,000x stronger than the weakest God. It's irrelevant to the statement. But you can be in denial all you want. The dictionary definition of the statements aren't going change just because you don't want it to be so.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Fri May 25, 2018 6:43 pm

To steer things away from that particular discussion, if I may, I've been thinking about BASE FORMS AGAIN!

That's right, the OTHER almighty and all-consuming debate!

I was thinking....... For the folks who aren't privy to really strong base forms, would the idea that "base" Goku and Freeza are equivalent, and Freeza has a "100% state" that isn't bulked up that's equal to Goku's Super Saiyan form, be a good enough compromise for some folks?

I base this general idea off of a few tidbits from the anime. Namely, how Freeza told Frost there was a way to use that 100% power state where he bulks up immensely without actually needing to bulk up, as well as how Goku and Freeza performed against Jiren in the last episode of DBS. It seems that Goku and Freeza powered up from their regular base forms into "100% power" of their next strongest forms, and I think it'd help alleviate at least some of the issues.

We can lowball Goku's base form a little bit but still place him immensely high given how he measures up to Freeza; making different forms occupying similar power niches relatively equivalent to one another seems to be a common trend in the Universal Survival Arc and greatly simplifies things. SSB and True Golden Freeza are equal, the base Saiyans are equal, etc.; I feel that the same might also be true of Super Saiyan and 100% Final Form Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 6:48 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:He surpasses the God of Destruction state of being as stated, so he surpasses the tier as a whole. It wouldn't matter even if the strongest god was 1,000,000x stronger than the weakest God. It's irrelevant to the statement. But you can be in denial all you want. The dictionary definition of the statements aren't going change just because you don't want it to be so.
See you don't even know what you are chatting because Whis saying Jiren "perhaps even surpassing the state" of A god in context was talking about Belmound ONLY in the special. Whis is even looking at Belmound while making the statement, then he confirms the rumor being true only about Jiren surpassing Belmound. Not about him surpassing all gods. You're just flat out wrong. This is just another case of bad reading and out of context dialogue by the fandom.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 25, 2018 6:51 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:To steer things away from that particular discussion, if I may, I've been thinking about BASE FORMS AGAIN!

That's right, the OTHER almighty and all-consuming debate!

I was thinking....... For the folks who aren't privy to really strong base forms, would the idea that "base" Goku and Freeza are equivalent, and Freeza has a "100% state" that isn't bulked up that's equal to Goku's Super Saiyan form, be a good enough compromise for some folks?

I base this general idea off of a few tidbits from the anime. Namely, how Freeza told Frost there was a way to use that 100% power state where he bulks up immensely without actually needing to bulk up, as well as how Goku and Freeza performed against Jiren in the last episode of DBS. It seems that Goku and Freeza powered up from their regular base forms into "100% power" of their next strongest forms, and I think it'd help alleviate at least some of the issues.

We can lowball Goku's base form a little bit but still place him immensely high given how he measures up to Freeza; making different forms occupying similar power niches relatively equivalent to one another seems to be a common trend in the Universal Survival Arc and greatly simplifies things. SSB and True Golden Freeza are equal, the base Saiyans are equal, etc.; I feel that the same might also be true of Super Saiyan and 100% Final Form Freeza.
It might be. Even in the ressurection F saga, after goku became blue, he was still surprised freeza had more power in his base form (when freeza attacked his ssb self), and goku didnt have the edge in power in base form like in the movie.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri May 25, 2018 6:56 pm

Miracles wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:He surpasses the God of Destruction state of being as stated, so he surpasses the tier as a whole. It wouldn't matter even if the strongest god was 1,000,000x stronger than the weakest God. It's irrelevant to the statement. But you can be in denial all you want. The dictionary definition of the statements aren't going change just because you don't want it to be so.
See you don't even know what you are chatting because Whis saying Jiren "perhaps even surpassing the state" of A god in context was talking about Belmound ONLY in the special. Whis is even looking at Belmound while making the statement, then he confirms the rumor being true only about Jiren surpassing Belmound. Not about him surpassing all gods. You're just flat out wrong. This is just another case of bad reading and out of context dialogue by the fandom.
Belmod isn't the only God of Destruction so surpassing the God of Destruction state doesn't refer to just him. And Whis looking at Belmod isn't relevant either. Belmod's expression was just a confirmation of Whis' assessment. Not hard to understand except for you apparently. Again, you need to brush up on your comprehension
No matter how much you want Beerus to remain relevant, he isn't. You're just going to have to get over it. You're not going to be successful in rewriting the dictionary.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 6:59 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Belmod isn't the only God of Destruction so surpassing the God of Destruction state doesn't refer to just him. And Whis looking at Belmod isn't relevant either. Belmod's expression was just a confirmation of Whis' assessment. Not hard to understand except for you apparently. Again, you need to brush up on your comprehension
No matter how much you want Beerus to remain relevant, he isn't. You're just going to have to get over it. You're not going to be successful in rewriting the dictionary.
Wrong again, except Whis statements clearly talk about Jiren only surpassing the state of "A" god which was specifically Belmound.
He even concluded with his former statement about a mortal being stronger than "A" god, not ALL gods. Everything else you added is headcannon, you are simply wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri May 25, 2018 7:04 pm

Miracles wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Belmod isn't the only God of Destruction so surpassing the God of Destruction state doesn't refer to just him. And Whis looking at Belmod isn't relevant either. Belmod's expression was just a confirmation of Whis' assessment. Not hard to understand except for you apparently. Again, you need to brush up on your comprehension
No matter how much you want Beerus to remain relevant, he isn't. You're just going to have to get over it. You're not going to be successful in rewriting the dictionary.
Wrong again, except Whis statements clearly talk about Jiren only surpassing the state of "A" god which was specifically Belmound.
He even concluded with his former statement about a mortal being stronger than "A" god, not ALL gods. Everything else you added is headcannon, you are simply wrong.
"He is one who has reached that state, perhaps surpassed it".

Nope. Nowhere did Whis say "only Belmod". That state=God of Destruction state as stated.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Fri May 25, 2018 7:09 pm

Jiren should have jumped into the stands and oneshotted Beerus.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 7:12 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:"He is one who has reached that state, perhaps surpassed it".

Nope. Nowhere did Whis say "only Belmod". That state=God of Destruction state as stated.
See your trying to rewrite the story without the context... This is why the fandom thinks TOEI "trolls" them but it's just bad reading...I''ll Finish the statement for you...

Shin: "He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay...like A god of destruction. He is one who has reached that state."
*Whis looks over to Belmound*
Whis:...Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal [Jiren] even a god of destruction [Belmound] can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."

Jiren reached Belmounds state and surpassed HIM only. You stating the other gods is headcannon, plain and simple.
Last edited by Miracles on Fri May 25, 2018 7:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri May 25, 2018 7:16 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:We know UI goku Completed a form no hakaishin has reached, not even beerus, who has a very sloppy UI sign.
I would like to know what gives you the impression Beerus or any other God of Destruction never used the same version of Ultra Instinct that Goku did. The only thing we know is that none besides the angels can willingly use the form yet. If Goku had complete control over the form’s power, than I think there would be little to no doubt he surpassed Beerus. But as things are of now, there isn’t anything settled.
Its been stated many times that UI is a form no god has completed. Its a form stated beyond hakaishins in many promotional materials. But i know a small portion of people dont accept that.
As far as I checked, it was said to be a state the Gods can’t easily attain. It wasn’t said they never attained it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri May 25, 2018 7:23 pm

Miracles wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:"He is one who has reached that state, perhaps surpassed it".

Nope. Nowhere did Whis say "only Belmod". That state=God of Destruction state as stated.
See you trying to rewrite the story without the context... This is why the fandom thinks TOEI "trolls" them but it's just bad reading...I''ll Finish the statement for you...

Shin: "He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay...like A god of destruction. He is one who has reached that state."
*Whis looks over to Belmound*
...Perhaps even surpassed it. "There is a universe where lives a mortal even a god of destruction can't defeat." It appears the rumor is true."

Jiren reached Belmounds state and surpassed HIM only. You stating other gods is headcannon plain and simple.
Shin: "He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay...like A god of destruction. He is one who has reached that state."


That part says nothing about Belmod. The fact that "A" is used is irrelevant. It's just a general statement about Jiren showing God of Destruction level power. "A" is used to refer to someone or something and based on Whis' next sentence he's not talking about a person. The next sentence refers to "that state". In the previous sentence he talks about Jiren showing God of Destruction level power, so this is about the God of Destruction state. Belmod isn't a state, he's a person.

The only part where talks about Jiren vs a specific God is when he reiterates the quote from before the tournament where Jiren surpasses a God that's>Beerus. And since Jiren's power transcends the God of Destruction state as a whole, the rumor is true.

How you can't understand something this simple is beyond my comprehension.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 7:29 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Shin: "He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay...like A god of destruction. He is one who has reached that state."


That part says nothing about Belmod. The fact that "A" is used is irrelevant. It's just a general statement about Jiren showing God of Destruction level power. "A" is used to refer to someone or something and based on Whis' next sentence he's not talking about a person. The next sentence refers to "that state". Belmod isn't a state, he's a person.

The only part where talks about Jiren vs a specific God is when he reiterates the quote from before the tournament where Jiren surpasses a God that's>Beerus. And since Jiren's power transcends the God of Destruction state as a whole, the rumor is true.

How you can't understand something this simple is beyond my comprehension.
Reaching the state of a god of destruction was put into perspective with the context being about Jiren surpassing Belmound. You taking that part of the text out means you can con anybody. :lol:

Your headcannon attempts by manipulating text aren't going to work. You were wrong, simple.
Last edited by Miracles on Fri May 25, 2018 7:30 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 25, 2018 7:29 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: I would like to know what gives you the impression Beerus or any other God of Destruction never used the same version of Ultra Instinct that Goku did. The only thing we know is that none besides the angels can willingly use the form yet. If Goku had complete control over the form’s power, than I think there would be little to no doubt he surpassed Beerus. But as things are of now, there isn’t anything settled.
Its been stated many times that UI is a form no god has completed. Its a form stated beyond hakaishins in many promotional materials. But i know a small portion of people dont accept that.
As far as I checked, it was said to be a state the Gods can’t easily attain. It wasn’t said they never attained it.
Omen was the state they couldnt easily achived, was only stated in episode 110 and during the fight with kale and caulifla. Not the completed one, especially since beerus words in 129 made it seem that shining silver like goku is part of having a completed UI.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Fri May 25, 2018 7:36 pm

Miracles wrote:
supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Shin: "He's strong. Plain and simple."
Whis: "I daresay...like A god of destruction. He is one who has reached that state."


That part says nothing about Belmod. The fact that "A" is used is irrelevant. It's just a general statement about Jiren showing God of Destruction level power. "A" is used to refer to someone or something and based on Whis' next sentence he's not talking about a person. The next sentence refers to "that state". Belmod isn't a state, he's a person.

The only part where talks about Jiren vs a specific God is when he reiterates the quote from before the tournament where Jiren surpasses a God that's>Beerus. And since Jiren's power transcends the God of Destruction state as a whole, the rumor is true.

How you can't understand something this simple is beyond my comprehension.
Reaching the state of a god of destruction was put into perspective with the context being about Jiren surpassing Belmound. You taking that part of the text out means you can con anybody. :lol:

Your headcannon attempts by manipulating text aren't going to work. You were wrong, simple.
What parts of the text did I take out? The text you added to the statement? Regardless, Belmod whom is a person isn't "that state", so there's nothing to discuss here. Not going to waste any more time spoonfeeding an illiterate.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri May 25, 2018 7:38 pm

Hugo Boss wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: I would like to know what gives you the impression Beerus or any other God of Destruction never used the same version of Ultra Instinct that Goku did. The only thing we know is that none besides the angels can willingly use the form yet. If Goku had complete control over the form’s power, than I think there would be little to no doubt he surpassed Beerus. But as things are of now, there isn’t anything settled.
Its been stated many times that UI is a form no god has completed. Its a form stated beyond hakaishins in many promotional materials. But i know a small portion of people dont accept that.
As far as I checked, it was said to be a state the Gods can’t easily attain. It wasn’t said they never attained it.
DAMN did it take me a while but i found the translation that herms trnslated

https://mobile.twitter.com/Herms98/stat ... 69/photo/2

It outright says is power that surpasses a god of destruction and god of destructions havent obtained. Shit didnt know that info was so old

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Fri May 25, 2018 7:43 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:What parts of the text did I take out? The text you added to the statement? Regardless Belmod whom is a person isn't "that state", so there's nothing to discuss here. Not going to waste any more time spoonfeeding an illiterate.
In order to try and back your statement about Jiren being above ALL gods you atempted to separate this statement from Whis: "I daresay...like A god of destruction. He is one who has reached that state." To make it look like Whis is talking about all the gods instead of one god. instead you ignored the rest of the context with Whis WHOLLY talking about Jiren only surpassing Belmound! Whis statement is totally based on the "rumor" that he finally confirmed true.

There is no Jiren > above all gods statement, there is ONLY Jiren above Belmound. You are just wrong cause you read it wrong.

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