Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed May 23, 2018 1:26 am

PFM18 wrote: Toppo was stronger than the initial SSBE Vegeta and so he was stronger than SSBKKx20, and SSBE Vegeta got a power up and was smacking around Toppo. If Goku was 80% of Beerus in SSB, then SSBE Vegeta, Toppo, SSBKKx20 Vegeta, Koichirator, Anilaza, and Kefla would ALL be stronger than Beerus by a significant amount. This makes no sense.

Beerus was only surpassed By Jiren and UI Goku that was made very clear within ep 129 and 130. For the Spirit Bomb to rival SSBKK20, then somebody who doublles that power comes along, and still loses, then Goku is magnitudes 40+ times stronger than this power that is supposedly 80% of Beerus. If Goku was that close to Beerus then the comment made in the ROF movie about if Goku and Vegeta worked together they could beat Beerus, wouldn't have been taken out. That was taken out because that was no longer the case.

Even the phrase "rivals" does not definitively make somebody really that close in this context. Being even as much as a tiny fraction of a GoD is a big deal because they are so many magnitudes stronger than a normal mortal. Look at Majin Buu. He was supposed to be this terrifying mortal with all this power, but Beerus makes him look like an ant. It is surprising for a mortal to be even remotely close or to be able to use God Ki, that was the point of this quote you are referencing.

You are putting far too much stock into this 10% Vegeta comment. Beerus admitted to lying about using 100% of his power against Goku, what makes you think he isn't also lying here?
There isn't any evidence that Initial SSBE Vegeta is equal to Kaioken Goku, nor above Kaioken Goku after his boost.
You can't even use the "He was initially shown to be equal to Goku prior to his boost" argument since the same thing is shown afterwards.
And the two are shown as equals after the TOP with the only mentioned difference being Ultra Instinct. So there's that narrative aspect.

Beerus would lose to Vegeta since Final Explosion>Destruction Energy as already shown, SSB Kaioken Goku doesn't have anything to overcome Destruction Energy so he loses, Toppo is a toss up. No reason why Anilaza would be above Beerus even in the hand to hand aspect.

Beerus could probably beat SSJ Kefla due to the Destruction Energy since her power rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing that was a God of Destruction level feat. He would be outmatched in hand to hand though. Against SSJ2 Kefla, he's out of luck. She has the power to one shot a universe in that form and was stronger than initial UI Goku, whom was equal to suppressed Jiren whom was compared to a God of Destruction. She would blow away his Destruction Energy along with the universe.

The reasons you're asserting for statements being absent is again, an assumption. Beerus' 70% line is absent in Super, but instead the 10% line is there. I don't know why you're saying that there's a retcon for every little statement that isn't retained.
And Goku and Vegeta don't even obtain Blue until they train in the dimension in Whis' staff, so that statement about Goku and Vegeta not being able to fight Beerus is when they're still below God level. So it's irrelevant. Then they go to fight Frieza soon after that. Whis has no reason to even compare SSB Goku and Vegeta to Beerus in the anime. The first time he saw that power in the anime was when Goku fought Frieza.

Rival means comparable. Super Saiyan Blue was stated to be a power that rivals the Gods. Just like Kefla was stated to rival the Spirit Bomb, just like Piccolo was stated to rival the Androids. I don't know why you're claiming that the word means something other than it's definition. The statement means exactly what it logically means. There is no caveat like "He only meant that Goku rivals 1% of a God's power".
That in conjunction with the 10% statement makes it perfectly obvious that this "SSB Goku is .0001% of God level" assertion is a farce.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed May 23, 2018 4:23 am

Fact: beerus is a couple hundred of times stronger than any ssb from the start of the TOP.

Fact: only Goku and Jiren supersede beerus. Anyone else most likely loses to beerus and possibly the rest of the other gods.

Fact: jiren being above the power of a hakaishin was made to be the biggest deal in dbs, being referenced all the way back in episode 93, 17 episodes before we got an actual statement in the series. 17 episodes is longer than most arcs in dbs btw.

Denying this is like denying the world is round.
There is simply no reason to believe ssb is anywhere near a hakaishins true potential, especially since a new born god was already beyond SSBE vegeta, who was equal to ssb kkx20 goku who were fighting a jiren who had unleashed more power than his 110 self.
Heck, even before then, vegetas final flash in 122 was frightening the shit out of belmod, due to the fact as how rapidly his power was increasing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Wed May 23, 2018 4:51 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Fact: beerus is a couple hundred of times stronger than any ssb from the start of the TOP.

Fact: only Goku and Jiren supersede beerus. Anyone else most likely loses to beerus and possibly the rest of the other gods.

Fact: jiren being above the power of a hakaishin was made to be the biggest deal in dbs, being referenced all the way back in episode 93, 17 episodes before we got an actual statement in the series. 17 episodes is longer than most arcs in dbs btw.

Denying this is like denying the world is round.
There is simply no reason to believe ssb is anywhere near a hakaishins true potential, especially since a new born god was already beyond SSBE vegeta, who was equal to ssb kkx20 goku who were fighting a jiren who had unleashed more power than his 110 self.
Heck, even before then, vegetas final flash in 122 was frightening the shit out of belmod, due to the fact as how rapidly his power was increasing.
No, those first two "facts" are still ambiguous and don't have any real grounding in the story.

At the very least, your third "fact", has some precedence in the story to suggest its undeniably true. Those previous two facts have several contradictations and things that suggest otherwise in the story.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed May 23, 2018 4:57 am

JazzMazz wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:Fact: beerus is a couple hundred of times stronger than any ssb from the start of the TOP.

Fact: only Goku and Jiren supersede beerus. Anyone else most likely loses to beerus and possibly the rest of the other gods.

Fact: jiren being above the power of a hakaishin was made to be the biggest deal in dbs, being referenced all the way back in episode 93, 17 episodes before we got an actual statement in the series. 17 episodes is longer than most arcs in dbs btw.

Denying this is like denying the world is round.
There is simply no reason to believe ssb is anywhere near a hakaishins true potential, especially since a new born god was already beyond SSBE vegeta, who was equal to ssb kkx20 goku who were fighting a jiren who had unleashed more power than his 110 self.
Heck, even before then, vegetas final flash in 122 was frightening the shit out of belmod, due to the fact as how rapidly his power was increasing.
No, those first two "facts" are still ambiguous and don't have any real grounding in the story.

At the very least, your third "fact", has some precedence in the story to suggest its undeniably true. Those previous two facts have several contradictations and things that suggest otherwise in the story.
First two facts are actually facts. 129 goku was stated to be perhaps beyond beerus, and that goku got overwhelmed by Limit breaker jiren in 130.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 23, 2018 8:55 am

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Rival means comparable. Super Saiyan Blue was stated to be a power that rivals the Gods. Just like Kefla was stated to rival the Spirit Bomb, just like Piccolo was stated to rival the Androids. I don't know why you're claiming that the word means something other than it's definition. The statement means exactly what it logically means. There is no caveat like "He only meant that Goku rivals 1% of a God's power".

That in conjunction with the 10% statement makes it perfectly obvious that this "SSB Goku is .0001% of God level" assertion is a farce.
I agree with this sentiment, but despite the use of this word, SSG and SSB are barely able to compete with a God of Destruction in battle power. Consider that one of them would be at least 20 times as strong as a SSB if we count that Goku needs a 20-fold kaioken to measure up.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:01 am

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Fact: beerus is a couple hundred of times stronger than any ssb from the start of the TOP.

Fact: only Goku and Jiren supersede beerus. Anyone else most likely loses to beerus and possibly the rest of the other gods.

Fact: jiren being above the power of a hakaishin was made to be the biggest deal in dbs, being referenced all the way back in episode 93, 17 episodes before we got an actual statement in the series. 17 episodes is longer than most arcs in dbs btw.

Denying this is like denying the world is round.
There is simply no reason to believe ssb is anywhere near a hakaishins true potential, especially since a new born god was already beyond SSBE vegeta, who was equal to ssb kkx20 goku who were fighting a jiren who had unleashed more power than his 110 self.
Heck, even before then, vegetas final flash in 122 was frightening the shit out of belmod, due to the fact as how rapidly his power was increasing.
Yeah your first "fact" is not only not aan objective fat, but imo it is a griss exaggeration. Beerus probably isnt even 100x let alone a couple hundred times stronger than SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed May 23, 2018 9:28 am

Well at least 50 times stronger than him at least.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Alruneia » Wed May 23, 2018 9:32 am

In the early Frieza arc, Vegeta (power level 24000) had no problem beating Dodoria (power level around 22000). Dodoria's power was around 11/12 (about 92 %) of Vegeta's. To me, this implies that there is no real need for a huge gap in powers in order for one character to have no problem beating another. So in my opinion, Beerus being hundreds of times stronger than any SSB in the beginning of the ToP is unnecessary, as he only needs to be slightly stronger than SSBKKx20 Goku. Even if you believe Goku and Vegeta doubled their strength during the tournament, Beerus being 50 times stronger than SSB Goku (ToP beginning) should be enough.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 23, 2018 9:41 am

Bullza wrote:Well at least 50 times stronger than him at least.
Yeah I would say somewhere around 50-60x SSB is where Beerus stands rn.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed May 23, 2018 10:48 am

Well if you buy into the whole thing with Super Saiyan Kefla rivalling the Spirit Bomb then

SSB Goku - 1
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 - 20
Spirit Bomb - Considerably over 20. Say 25 though as a low ball.
Super Saiyan Kefla - 25
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla - 50

Then Ultra Instinct Goku was above that. Full Power Jiren was clearly ahead of that and Beerus would be below him.

So yeah I could see Beerus being around a hundred times stronger if not more.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 23, 2018 11:58 am

Bullza wrote:Well if you buy into the whole thing with Super Saiyan Kefla rivalling the Spirit Bomb then

SSB Goku - 1
SSB Goku Kaioken x20 - 20
Spirit Bomb - Considerably over 20. Say 25 though as a low ball.
Super Saiyan Kefla - 25
Super Saiyan 2 Kefla - 50

Then Ultra Instinct Goku was above that. Full Power Jiren was clearly ahead of that and Beerus would be below him.

So yeah I could see Beerus being around a hundred times stronger if not more.
See I mostly agree with this but as far as "rival" is used in the series it is usually extremely lose, she could rival the Spirit Bomb but still be considerably weaker than it.(see "Goku rivals the Gods") among several other times "rivals" is used but doesn't necessarily mean "the same strength as." I think at the MOST she is SSBKKx20 level, considering that she is probably slightly weaker than the spirit Bomb and Kaioken was soundly beating her until she snuck up on Goku and kicked him from behind, after he was already exhausted. (Goku's punch made her arm numb and the 2nd attack made it hard for her to stand up. So SSJ Kefla is slightly weaker than SSBKKx20 and weaker than the spirit Bomb but still on the same level.

Lowballed numbers:

SSB: 1
SSBKKx20: 20
Spirit Bomb: 20
SSJ Kefla: 15
SSJ2 Kefla: 30

highballed numbers:
SSB: 1
SSBKKx20: 20
Spirit Bomb: 25
SSJ Kefla: 20
SSJ2 Kefla: 40

Where the 2nd UI Omen is around 40x SSB, the 3rd Omen around 60x and the completed form at like 90x and Beerus fits somewhere in that 60-90 range. (closer to 60 than 90 though)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Wed May 23, 2018 12:57 pm

Ya know, Jiren ends up being a total freak if you scale him from what he did to the spirit bomb. The only other time we’ve seen anything similar was when Buu did it, and he struggled. At that point Goku was exhausted, and even if Goku was fully fit Kid Buu was like 400x Base Goku. Then there’s the monster that is Jiren, that actually stares at the spirit bomb and sends it back at Goku. Clearly surpassing Buu’s feat. It’s actually crazy when you think that Jiren treated SSJB worse than Buu treated an exhausted Base Goku.

The only reason UIO wasn’t destroyed against Jiren was because of Goku’s hax, which is shown when Jiren an almost FP Jiren only managed to sorta hit UIO when he was airborne, even though we know Jiren was plenty ahead in terms of raw power.
Then later Jiren powers up to a stage where he can beat on MUI, now out of universe this has got to be down to Toei wanting to make the final fight epic, which is super annoying because it makes MUI look like a normal power up, at least have him get hit in the air where there’s the no flight limitiation... but anyway..... In universe this is really impressive considering UIO was below FP Jiren and Jiren couldn’t hit Goku, but later on limit breaker Jiren could beat on Goku MUI, and as we saw MUI treated bog standard FP Jiren like a bitch. So for Jiren to get to a stage where he can surpass MUI to the point where he can ignore its hax is pretty damn insane.
So, yeah, I have Jiren well ahead of MUI in raw power, as that’s the only thing that makes sense for Jiren to ignore UIs hax.

LB Jiren>> MUI Goku >> FP Jiren > UIO Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed May 23, 2018 1:23 pm

If it took a ssb vegito (black arc) and UI goku (129) to be stated perhaps beyond beerus, why would beerus not be over 100x stronger than a regular ssb from the start of the tournament? Concidering how much more powerful goku and vegeta got during their fight with jiren, and them pushing back a suppressed jiren that had unleashed more power than his 110 self, with just KK blue and SSBE. Lets not forget that a new born god, toppo, was also above SSBE vegeta(pre nakama boost) and i doubt a hakaishin that is a minute old is exactly as strong as one that had eons worth of training.

I see them being somewhat close to beerus in ssb at the end of the series, but not before their fight with jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 23, 2018 1:58 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:If it took a ssb vegito (black arc) and UI goku (129) to be stated perhaps beyond beerus, why would beerus not be over 100x stronger than a regular ssb from the start of the tournament? Concidering how much more powerful goku and vegeta got during their fight with jiren, and them pushing back a suppressed jiren that had unleashed more power than his 110 self, with just KK blue and SSBE. Lets not forget that a new born god, toppo, was also above SSBE vegeta(pre nakama boost) and i doubt a hakaishin that is a minute old is exactly as strong as one that had eons worth of training.

I see them being somewhat close to beerus in ssb at the end of the series, but not before their fight with jiren.
Wait.....what? Are you saying that they got 100x stronger during the tournament? It certainly sounds like that is what you are saying.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed May 23, 2018 2:11 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:If it took a ssb vegito (black arc) and UI goku (129) to be stated perhaps beyond beerus, why would beerus not be over 100x stronger than a regular ssb from the start of the tournament? Concidering how much more powerful goku and vegeta got during their fight with jiren, and them pushing back a suppressed jiren that had unleashed more power than his 110 self, with just KK blue and SSBE. Lets not forget that a new born god, toppo, was also above SSBE vegeta(pre nakama boost) and i doubt a hakaishin that is a minute old is exactly as strong as one that had eons worth of training.

I see them being somewhat close to beerus in ssb at the end of the series, but not before their fight with jiren.
Wait.....what? Are you saying that they got 100x stronger during the tournament? It certainly sounds like that is what you are saying.
No no lol. My bad if it sounds like that. What i meant is that at the end of the series, they are much closer to beerus in their ssb, than when they started the tournament. The gap nost likely is less than 100x at the end of the series in their ssb.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Wed May 23, 2018 4:32 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:If it took a ssb vegito (black arc) and UI goku (129) to be stated perhaps beyond beerus, why would beerus not be over 100x stronger than a regular ssb from the start of the tournament? Concidering how much more powerful goku and vegeta got during their fight with jiren, and them pushing back a suppressed jiren that had unleashed more power than his 110 self, with just KK blue and SSBE. Lets not forget that a new born god, toppo, was also above SSBE vegeta(pre nakama boost) and i doubt a hakaishin that is a minute old is exactly as strong as one that had eons worth of training.

I see them being somewhat close to beerus in ssb at the end of the series, but not before their fight with jiren.
Wait.....what? Are you saying that they got 100x stronger during the tournament? It certainly sounds like that is what you are saying.
No no lol. My bad if it sounds like that. What i meant is that at the end of the series, they are much closer to beerus in their ssb, than when they started the tournament. The gap nost likely is less than 100x at the end of the series in their ssb.
I thought you were saying Beerus use to be 100x but now they are like right on hid heels in SSB.

But when they first fought Joren in 122 and they were doing ok that was Jiren's weakest in the tournament hence why Vegeta said "You were stronger and faster when you fought Kakarot" as in he was mad at Jiren for holding back against him. Then Jiren powers up and the next episode it is SSBE and SSBKKx20 against him. I dont think they really got any stronger

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Wed May 23, 2018 5:36 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Kenneth La Torre wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Wait.....what? Are you saying that they got 100x stronger during the tournament? It certainly sounds like that is what you are saying.
No no lol. My bad if it sounds like that. What i meant is that at the end of the series, they are much closer to beerus in their ssb, than when they started the tournament. The gap nost likely is less than 100x at the end of the series in their ssb.
I thought you were saying Beerus use to be 100x but now they are like right on hid heels in SSB.

But when they first fought Joren in 122 and they were doing ok that was Jiren's weakest in the tournament hence why Vegeta said "You were stronger and faster when you fought Kakarot" as in he was mad at Jiren for holding back against him. Then Jiren powers up and the next episode it is SSBE and SSBKKx20 against him. I dont think they really got any stronger
Not really. Once jiren powered up in 123, belmod exclaimed that its been a long time since he has seen jiren used that much power.
Jiren in 122 is irrelavent, cause we all knew he was holding back there. Its a given that they get more powerful the more they fight, especially because of the immense beatings they got.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Wed May 23, 2018 6:01 pm

Let's see:

Whis says that Jiren (ep. 109-110) is perhaps stronger than his own God of Destruction, who, as we know, beat Beerus at arm wrestling.

Jiren (ep. 109-110) >= Beerus.

We also have Shin's statement about Jiren being the strongest foe U7 have ever faced. This basically puts ep. 109-110 Jiren above Half-Corrupted Merged Zamasu, who, in the anime, is just slightly weaker than SsjB Vegito.

Jiren (ep. 109-110) > SsjB Vegito >= Half-Corrupted Merged Zamasu.


Later on, Piccolo compares Ssj2 Kefla to UI Goku (ep. 116), while Roshi states that UI Goku would get instantly killed by Kefla's all-out attack if it hit him. So, in terms of power, Ssj2 Kefla is indeed stronger than UI Goku, she loses only because the latter dodged everything.

Ssj2 Kefla > UI Goku (ep. 116) > UI Goku (ep. 110) >>> SsjB KKx20 Goku (ep. 109)


She's nowhere near the others though.

Aniraza is a a fly compared to these characters. He was stronger than a regular SsjB, that's it.

Hakaishin Toppo is different. We have a clear statement by Belmod: "Having made up his mind, Toppo is no different from a God of Destruction". Nothing else to say. Of course, if Toppo and Beerus were to fight, the latter would probably win due to expierence. But in terms of power, they're pretty much equal, and we have Belmod's statement that proves this.

Hakaishin Toppo = Beerus > SsjB Vegito >= Half-Corrupted Merged Zamasu > Ssj2 Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supersaiyangodgogeta » Wed May 23, 2018 7:18 pm

It doesn't really matter how much people want to repeat this. These arguments have no merit if the entire thing can easily be invalidated by one statement.

Super Saiyan Blue rivals the Gods. Perfect Blue which is simply equivalent to the current Blue in the anime forced Beerus to get serious in order to beat it. The same Perfect Blue which is only equal to the current anime Blue was stated to be strong enough to be a God candidate. And Beerus needed 10% against Vegeta.

The power of a God of Destruction includes their Destruction Energy. Someone can claim that the Destruction Energy allows them to push far above their weight since Vegeta needed Final Explosion to beat Toppo despite being way stronger, but that's about it. They could realistically beat anyone up to Super Saiyan Kefla because of it. Super Saiyan Kefla rivals the Spirit Bomb and Jiren neutralizing the Spirit Bomb was compared to a God of Destruction. So their Destruction Energy should be capable of handling that level of power at least. Nothing higher than that is ever implied.

Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed May 23, 2018 9:16 pm

supersaiyangodgogeta wrote:Though as far as the Gods beating people like Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku and Super Saiyan Blue Evolution Vegeta in the hand to hand fight when the opposite is shown, that's not even worth addressing.
Do you think Goku can beat around Toppo using kaioken?

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