Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[omaro34]

My boy Big Green beat the mystic into Gohan.

Piccolo showed he is much stronger than Super Saiyan Gohan.

Which means Piccolo would have wrecked Lavender.

[The gr]

I mentioned Kibith because he is said to be about even with a base Gohan from the Buu saga (which could still be stronger than the current Gohan, as far as we know; we'd definitely need something more concrete to prove he's stronger than ever).
I don't really get your train-of-thought, though. Basil and Lavenda are near in power, according to you. Gohan had basically the edge in base on Lavenda: how can the non-drugged Basil be Super Saiyan 2 tier?

is the Same case as hit wether as base goku is not​ close to hit,gohan was owning him because he could react better than his opponent and his sense has been heightned and that's the reason why base goku nails some damage to hit, because he reacted faster than him

If anything, I'm rather convinced SS1/SS2 Gohan vs. Piccolo was meant to reflect that there were some outside factors like - y'know - "battle instincts" and psychological blocks coming into play, compromising Gohan's performance since it's basically what the fight is all about. Gohan vs. Lavenda looked like a pretty regular fight in which Lavenda was already losing.
At this point, I guess it'd be simpler for you to argue that Lavenda was not going all out.

I say lavenda was going all out imo, unlike Basil who surpressed in the beginning of his fight, base gohan was owning lavenda because he was predicting lavender movement and the moment he will strike,I mean no one said base Goku≥ssb vegeta,is the same case as hit, goku was predicting his movement and the moment where hit will strike, that will explain why lavender was trading blows with ss1,so lavender and undrugged Basil could be around SPC or ss2 tier or if you want to low-ball them around cell tier meanwhile drugged Basil is close to buu in which Piccolo is above both of them]

Basil can't be SSJ2 tier or anywhere near it. Majin Boo was no selling everything Basil was throwing at him, and Majin Boo in return, was kicking Basil's ass. Even when Basil took the drug and powered up, a single Kamehameha from a serious Majin Boo left Basil so damaged and fatigued he couldn't fight anymore. I'd wager that Basil is Base Saiyan tier at best.

Is not hard to believe Basil around ss2 or cell tier, buu said the he was strong and it took a full powered attack from buu to defeat him and his undrugged form survived an attack from a angry buu and did not die,you could tell buu was going all out when he Saw Satan got hurt

[Bullza]

I think it goes something like this

Ultimate Gohan > Fat Buu > Piccolo > SSJ2 Gohan > Piccolo with weights > SSJ Gohan > Gohan

So if Base Gohan is comparable to his Buu saga self then characters like Basil and Lavender would be below even that which then makes sense why Krillin wasn't completely stomped by Basil and why he can hold his own against Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

is the Same case as hit wether as base goku is not​ close to hit,gohan was owning him because he could react better than his opponent and his sense has been heightned and that's the reason why base goku nails some damage to hit, because he reacted faster than him

If anything, I'm rather convinced SS1/SS2 Gohan vs. Piccolo was meant to reflect that there were some outside factors like - y'know - "battle instincts" and psychological blocks coming into play, compromising Gohan's performance since it's basically what the fight is all about. Gohan vs. Lavenda looked like a pretty regular fight in which Lavenda was already losing.
At this point, I guess it'd be simpler for you to argue that Lavenda was not going all out.

I say lavenda was going all out imo, unlike Basil who surpressed in the beginning of his fight, base gohan was owning lavenda because he was predicting lavender movement and the moment he will strike,I mean no one said base Goku≥ssb vegeta,is the same case as hit, goku was predicting his movement and the moment where hit will strike, that will explain why lavender was trading blows with ss1,so lavender and undrugged Basil could be around SPC or ss2 tier or if you want to low-ball them around cell tier

Like I said before, I don't really believe they're meant to be stronger than base Saiyans. At the very least, it has been established that Lavenda is inferior to a regular Super Saiyan from around Buu/Cell saga.

The only argument that has a little of substance in my view is that the drugged Basil could possibly give Good Buu a fight, since that's at the very least what the bystanders conclude after seeing Buu's max power Kamehameha.
I think you are indirectly applying double standards, anyway: you could just argue the same theory for Gohan vs. Piccolo (and it would corroborate what is actually said in the episode).

[Marlowe89]

I never had the impression that the current Super Saiyan Gohan was Ultimate tier, so I'm glad this episode put that whole dispute to rest.

[Beyond]

I still believe Piccolo got nerfed really bad in ROF. Since we know that Gohan had no traces of mystic in him. Piccolo definitely should have been a good bit stronger than base Gohan. Piccolo basically got both unerfed and a lot stronger at the same time. SS2 tier after all these years feel right for Piccolo anyway.

[The gr]

If anything, I'm rather convinced SS1/SS2 Gohan vs. Piccolo was meant to reflect that there were some outside factors like - y'know - "battle instincts" and psychological blocks coming into play, compromising Gohan's performance since it's basically what the fight is all about. Gohan vs. Lavenda looked like a pretty regular fight in which Lavenda was already losing.
At this point, I guess it'd be simpler for you to argue that Lavenda was not going all out.

I say lavenda was going all out imo, unlike Basil who surpressed in the beginning of his fight, base gohan was owning lavenda because he was predicting lavender movement and the moment he will strike,I mean no one said base Goku≥ssb vegeta,is the same case as hit, goku was predicting his movement and the moment where hit will strike, that will explain why lavender was trading blows with ss1,so lavender and undrugged Basil could be around SPC or ss2 tier or if you want to low-ball them around cell tier

Like I said before, I don't really believe they're meant to be stronger than base Saiyans. At the very least, it has been established that Lavenda is inferior to a regular Super Saiyan from around Buu/Cell saga.

The only argument that has a little of substance in my view is that the drugged Basil could possibly give Good Buu a fight, since that's at the very least what the bystanders conclude after seeing Buu's max power Kamehameha.
I think you are indirectly applying double standards, anyway: you could just argue the same theory for Gohan vs. Piccolo (and it would be corroborate what is actually said in the episode).

How am I applying double standard,the base saiyan like Goku and Vegeta could one shot ssj3 Gotenks,so basil is not even close to them, let's just say basil and lavender are cell tier, your right the reason why Piccolo is owning gohan he could react faster than his opponent and predict his movement which was said in ep 80 as well

[Bullza]

I still believe Piccolo got nerfed really bad in ROF. Since we know that Gohan had no traces of mystic in him. Piccolo definitely should have been a good bit stronger than base Gohan. Piccolo basically got both unerfed and a lot stronger at the same time. SS2 tier after all these years feel right for Piccolo anyway.

I don't know if he did get nerfed or we misinterpreted something or what. Piccolo was wearing weights maybe that hindered him and he should have taken them off.

In any case I don't think it matters much now. This was a new episode and the information here should take precedence over an old episode that we always had some questions over.

[LowRyder2005]

I say lavenda was going all out imo, unlike Basil who surpressed in the beginning of his fight, base gohan was owning lavenda because he was predicting lavender movement and the moment he will strike,I mean no one said base Goku≥ssb vegeta,is the same case as hit, goku was predicting his movement and the moment where hit will strike, that will explain why lavender was trading blows with ss1,so lavender and undrugged Basil could be around SPC or ss2 tier or if you want to low-ball them around cell tier

Like I said before, I don't really believe they're meant to be stronger than base Saiyans. At the very least, it has been established that Lavenda is inferior to a regular Super Saiyan from around Buu/Cell saga.

The only argument that has a little of substance in my view is that the drugged Basil could possibly give Good Buu a fight, since that's at the very least what the bystanders conclude after seeing Buu's max power Kamehameha.
I think you are indirectly applying double standards, anyway: you could just argue the same theory for Gohan vs. Piccolo (and it would be corroborate what is actually said in the episode).

How am I applying double standard,the base saiyan like Goku and Vegeta could one shot ssj3 Gotenks,so basil is not even close to them, let's just say basil and lavender are cell tier, your right the reason why Piccolo is owning gohan he could react faster than his opponent and predict his movement

With "base Saiyans" I meant "Buu Saga base Saiyans", like Gohan.
Double standards as in "Piccolo was beating up Gohan because the former was stronger" combined with "Gohan was beating up Lavenda because the former has better reaction times, but he's, like, a hundred times weaker". It simply doesn't sound like a really convincing argument to me.
On Piccolo: I would like him to be relevant and stronger like your average guy; given that he was unable to become stronger in all the time skips so far and that he was established to be less dangerous than a (weaker!) Super Saiyan Gohan in ROF, though, I still have a hard time getting accustomed to such a sudden and quite random power-up.

Again, consistency: I welcome the idea he was actually capable of giving Super Saiyan Gohan a fight all along, anything more than that and I'd need something more conclusive than "he trained for some more weeks, he got a dozen times better".
Other than that, I'd still contend the episode may have been giving us a pellucid reason on why Gohan is being made a fool of. The subs will perhaps make this a little clearer, but I honestly got the impression that most of what happened was supposed to be a product of Gohan's self-imposed limits.

[The gr]

Like I said before, I don't really believe they're meant to be stronger than base Saiyans. At the very least, it has been established that Lavenda is inferior to a regular Super Saiyan from around Buu/Cell saga.

The only argument that has a little of substance in my view is that the drugged Basil could possibly give Good Buu a fight, since that's at the very least what the bystanders conclude after seeing Buu's max power Kamehameha.
I think you are indirectly applying double standards, anyway: you could just argue the same theory for Gohan vs. Piccolo (and it would be corroborate what is actually said in the episode).

How am I applying double standard,the base saiyan like Goku and Vegeta could one shot ssj3 Gotenks,so basil is not even close to them, let's just say basil and lavender are cell tier, your right the reason why Piccolo is owning gohan he could react faster than his opponent and predict his movement

With "base Saiyans" I meant "Buu Saga base Saiyans", like Gohan.
Double standards as in "Piccolo was beating up Gohan because the former was stronger", but "Gohan was beating up Lavenda because the former has better reaction times, but he's, like, a hundred times weaker". It simply doesn't sound like a really convincing argument to me.
On Piccolo: I would like him to be relevant and stronger like your average guy; given that he was unable to become stronger in all the time skips so far and that he was established to be less dangerous than a (weaker!) Super Saiyan Gohan in ROF, though, I still have a hard time getting accustomed to such a sudden and quite random power-up.

Again, consistency: I welcome the idea he was actually capable of giving Super Saiyan Gohan a fight all along, anything more than that and I'd need something more conclusive than "he trained for some more weeks, he got a dozen times better".
Other than that, I'd still contend the episode may have been giving us a pellucid reason on why Gohan is being made a fool of. The subs will perhaps make this a little clearer, but I honestly got the impression that most of what happened was supposed to be a product of Gohan's self-imposed limits.

let's wait for the subs

[BWri]

I still believe Piccolo got nerfed really bad in ROF. Since we know that Gohan had no traces of mystic in him. Piccolo definitely should have been a good bit stronger than base Gohan. Piccolo basically got both unerfed and a lot stronger at the same time. SS2 tier after all these years feel right for Piccolo anyway.

Pretty much this. Either that or his death in the RoF motivated him to get a lot stronger than before.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Well, I'll just update the list of characters.

It has been about 1 year since the end of the Black Saga (considering that in this Saga Bulma was not pregnant and only gave birth to a few episodes ago).
Of course, those who still continue training as Goku and Vegeta tend to always get stronger, since they give food to Whis in exchange for training.

Not considering angels and Zeno.

1-Vegetto
2-Merged Zamasu
3-Beerus / Champa
4-Goku (Kaioken)
5-Vegeta SSB / Hit
6-Toppo / Goku Black
7-Trunks (SSJ Rage)
8-Zamasu
9-Kyabe
10-Frost

As far as power goes, why is Toppo below Vegeta and Hit? If anything he's probably on their level or possibly higher.

Toppo was at a small disadvantage compared to Goku SSB in the exhibition tournament.
Apparently he had not used all his power, but Goku did not either (even in the form of SSB).

Goku used the Kaioken, but nothing guarantees that he was needed to defeat Toppo since the Saiyajin just wanted to show "what happens when he goes beyond his limits." After all, if the Kaioken doubles its power, then Toppo would be holding a power Twice as big - even at a disadvantage?

I would put them on the same level, but I see vegeta and Hit a little above.

_________

Now I would say Piccolo> Gohan SSJ2> Gohan SSJ> Gohan base.

Piccolo beat Gohan SSJ2, whether using strategies or not, so I see him superior.

And Gohan's "Ultimate" form is not a transformation. It's just a "state" in which Gohan sits after releasing all his power, not an evolution of Super Saiyan 2.

[LowRyder2005]

Well, the subbed version is around. I'll try to sum up the relevant infos for the power junkies:

* Goku confirms that Gohan is "out of practice". Considering his "original power" he should've been able to "do better". In short, Gohan is still weaker than his former self (whether this means he specifically wanted Gohan to go Ultimate or that he is weaker tout court is up to everyone's interpretation).
* Piccolo clashes with Base Gohan and understands his "current power". Hence, this probably means Gohan was different, comparatively to the last time the two had sparred (if weaker or stronger remains undisclosed).
* Gohan says he wants to become "even stronger" before sparring with Piccolo.
* Piccolo, fighting Super Saiyan Gohan, first says that Gohan is "too impatient". Then that Gohan cannot even "evoke his original strength" because he's too focused on protecting everyone.
* Piccolo invites Gohan to get serious and to come at him with his "full strength". Gohan goes SS2.
* Piccolo is confirmed to have become more powerful, apparently in-between their training sessions and while Gohan was busy with his scholarly life, surprising if not shocking Gohan - who didn't expect his master to become this strong. Piccolo strangles SS2 Gohan to semi-uncosciousness. Gohan reverts to base.
* Gohan is still not fighting seriously, though, and Piccolo calls him on it. Gohan replies again that he will "fight with all he has". Turns SS2 again. Then turns Ultimate and adds he "won't be holding back". At this point he can casually slice off Piccolo's arm, but he drops his guard again and Piccolo blasts him.

[Bullza]

Piccolo is confirmed to have become more powerful, apparently in-between their training sessions and while Gohan was busy with his scholarly life, surprising if not shocking Gohan - who didn't expect his master to become this strong.

Oh was he really?

I was just about to question if Piccolo had made any worthwhile gains since the Universe 6 saga.

So Final Form Frost, Magetta, Super Saiyan Cabba, Goku and Vegeta as they were during the Universe 6 tournament....does the current Piccolo beat them all now?

[The gr]

I watched the episode again, here's what I got, ultimate gohan≥piccolo≥ss2 Gohan≥ss1 gohan≥lavender≥base Gohan, piccolo has gotten pretty strong, already surpassing ss2 tier so is safe to say he could be around ss3 or super buu tier, don't ask why Piccolo got these amazing gains an This episode already debunked Gohan being ultimate in the exhibition and rof, since Goku stated his ultimate power could stomp Lavender

[LowRyder2005]

Piccolo is confirmed to have become more powerful, apparently in-between their training sessions and while Gohan was busy with his scholarly life, surprising if not shocking Gohan - who didn't expect his master to become this strong.

Oh was he really?

I was just about to question if Piccolo had made any worthwhile gains since the Universe 6 saga.

So Final Form Frost, Magetta, Super Saiyan Cabba, Goku and Vegeta as they were during the Universe 6 tournament....does the current Piccolo beat them all now?

Yeah, it wouldn't exactly come off as great writing, would it? I'd personally lean towards the idea that while Piccolo is stronger it was Gohan who was still extremely weak. Piccolo, on the other hand, trained alone and obtained some marginal gains in-between the two multiversal tourneys; there's also Goku's power thrown in the mix, as you yourself pointed out.

I do think this episode, among many others, is still most relevant in showing how Super doesn't possess a clear narrative direction in general. There's something like a distinct feeling of lack of medium-long planning as far as scenarios are concerned. I doubt we'd have Piccolo beating Super Saiyan Goku into submission even one episode from now, and yet Super lead us to believe that not-Ultimate Super Saiyan Gohan and current Super Saiyan Goku were actualy not that far off.

(And yet, I fear no one is talking about the next powerhouse in ep. 89: Majin Roshi! Ascending to the realm of the Gods and sparring with a post-God ki Goku).

[Bullza]

Well more and more I think they've put Goku and his Super Saiyan forms back to how they were at the start of Super. Essentially it's now also like the manga.

It'd make much more sense that way to be honest. They'd be plain better off doing it like that.

It'll be interesting to see what they do with Roshi, he was giving it a good go against Goku. He had that thing on his face, not sure if that's powered him up or not. Again though seeing something like that does make me think Goku is just as he was at the start of Super, not powered up because of any God power.

[HeroR]

I think it goes something like this

Ultimate Gohan > Fat Buu > Piccolo > SSJ2 Gohan > Piccolo with weights > SSJ Gohan > Gohan

So if Base Gohan is comparable to his Buu saga self then characters like Basil and Lavender would be below even that which then makes sense why Krillin wasn't completely stomped by Basil and why he can hold his own against Gohan.

Piccolo without weights only gets like a 20% boost. So he has to be comparable to Super Saiyan 2 Gohan before he removes he weights.

[HeroR]

Basil can't be SSJ2 tier or anywhere near it. Majin Boo was no selling everything Basil was throwing at him, and Majin Boo in return, was kicking Basil's ass. Even when Basil took the drug and powered up, a single Kamehameha from a serious Majin Boo left Basil so damaged and fatigued he couldn't fight anymore. I'd wager that Basil is Base Saiyan tier at best.

What the heck is this 'Super Saiyan 2 tier' or 'base Saiyan tier'? It isn't like the Saiyans kept the same power level since the Buu Saga here.

So, Ultimate Gohan >>> SS2 Gohan = Piccolo > SS Gohan > Base Gohan and Gohan's meant to somewhat relative to Buu in his base, jeez Piccolo got a massive boost..

When was Gohan made comparable or relative to Majin Boo in his base form?

Maybe because he was able to fight Lavender in his base form who should be stronger than Basil since everyone went weakest to strongest. And he fought Lavender when he was mostly poisoned.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

I'm not sure if the idea presented here is that the new Ultimate Gohan with the bang that we saw here is equal to Boo arc Ultimate Gohan.

Gohan before he obtained his bang again, was stated to be Ultimate. Before this episode he at least possessed the dormant power that was unlocked by Elder Kai.
[spoiler]
[/spoiler]

Though I'm guessing that the dormant power that Elder Kai drew from Gohan is no longer his max and he now has more potential, so Super Saiyan was still a viable option to increase his power. I'm guessing that Gohan's "original strength" is a fully powered Potential unleashed state.


"Boo arc Potential unleashed Gohan>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Goku=SSJ Gohan>Base Goku=Base Gohan>SSJ3 Gotenks" doesn't make sense since Ultimate Gohan wasn't over 100x stronger than Gotenks.


So the hierarchy that I think is more likely is "Full Potential unleashed Gohan(Post Piccolo training)>SSJ2 Gohan>SSJ Gohan>Potential unleashed Gohan(Pre Piccolo training)=Boo arc Potential unleashed Gohan"