Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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SupremeKai25
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:21 am

Shin stated that Jiren was different from everyone else, but that doesn't have to mean that he was stronger. Fused Zamasu was also stated to be insane, incomprehensible, and different than any god or mortal they faced before, yet that obviously doesn't mean that he was stronger than Beerus.
This is a false argument. The Z-fighters did face Infinite Zamasu, sensed his power and Goku, Vegeta & Future Trunks were abled to deflect one of his mouth blast. There's no reason to dismiss Vegeta, Goku and Shin's claims about Suppressed Jiren>>>>any previous enemy outside of bias.
Did they truly face him? Perhaps, but if they did, they "faced him" in the sense that "they tried to stop him but failed miserably and were stomped". Much like Present Zamasu "faced" Beerus.
Present Zamasu was about SS2-level, Shin is probably SS1G2-level
Goku after his first fight against Zamasu admitted that he is much stronger than the Supreme Kai of his universe a.k.a. Shin. For a Kai, Zamasu was very strong. He was a natural prodigy and a fighting genius, and according to Goku, if he kept training, one day he could rival even Beerus. Shin himself in the manga described his skills as an apprentice almsot certainly peerless in comparison to that of the Supreme Kais. The Supreme Kais himself recognized Zamasu as a genius. After all, Zamasu was a simple North Kai, yet he was chosen nonetheless by Gowasu despite his very low status in the God hierarchy.
He would punch the sky.
Zamasu's faces covering the sky are just a physical representation of his soul becoming part of the very fabric of the cosmos. To defeat Infinite Zamasu, Jiren would have to find a way to actually destroy the very fabric of the cosmos, which:

A) Would be impossible, since only Zeno can eliminate immortal beings;
B) Would be impossible, because if you destroy the fabric of the cosmos, you destroy the cosmos itself.
What about the fact that Merged Zamasu was easily done in by Trunks after absorbing the Spirit Bomb whereas the suppressed Jiren was able to force back the Spirit Bomb that was being pushed by Super Saiyan Blue Goku with the Kaio-ken x20?
Well, at that point, Fused Zamasu was breaking down both physically and mentally. His body was falling apart and was damaged by all his fights against Goku, Vegeta, Trunks, and Vegito (his regeneration capabilities were still strong, but flawed). And mentally he wasn't thinking very clearly, he had gone completely insane and had lost it. So obviously Trunks merely caught Fused Zamasu at his most vulnerable point.

If Trunks had fought Zamasu as soon as he gained his power-up thanks to the Light of DIvine Justice, so before the fight with Vegito and before he sacrificed his speed to become stronger, then I think that Zamasu would have defeated Trunks, even if he had the sword of love and friendship. If you look at Fused Zamasu in his final moments, his main problem wasn't the lack of strength, but the lack of speed. He simply couldn't keep up with Vegito and Trunks because he was too big.

And also the sword merely cleaved Zamasu in half. It didn't actually destroy him. Zamasu destroyed himself. As Gowasu said, He willingly cast aside his divine vessel to merge with the very fabric of the cosmos and become his very idea of justice and order made manifest. It wasn't Trunks who obliterated his body. At least that's what I think happened considering the fact that Zamasu kept talking even after he was cleaved in half, and his body disintegrated only after he stopped laughing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:27 am

ruler9871 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
ruler9871 wrote: If any of the people I listed use Hakai or something similar then Infinite Zamasu is done for.
Hakai can't kill immortal beings...

In the anime is heavily implied Beerus can only beat Future Zamasu by sealing him and in the manga he outright confirms it.

Also Zeno's technique is not Hakai.
No such implication was in the anime, where's your source?

The point of Hakai is to erase souls completely.
The anime didn't outright state so. They left it in the air whether or not Beerus could waste an immortal due to Vegeta's statement...
But the manga is clear. Beerus can't destroy an immortal...
I will go with the manga since Toriyama himself checks every story board of it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Feb 11, 2019 1:43 pm

The anime also is clear.

Vegeta asks if Beerus can destroy an immortal being and Whis goes straight to the sealing technique talk.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 11, 2019 3:50 pm

It's right there, in the anime, Goku asks if Beerus could destroy an immortal. Then Vegeta gives a what if scenario about Beerus being able to destroy Zamasu. Even if Beerus does vaporize Zamas, all he'll do is create another timeline. This is where Whis brings up the sealing technique. In order not to create another timeline from beerus wasting Zamas. It's up in the air with the anime if Beerus could accomplish such a feat. It doesn't matter tho, since Toriyama heavily oversaw the manga, we got confirmation from that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Feb 11, 2019 4:47 pm

Miracles wrote:It's right there, in the anime, Goku asks if Beerus could destroy an immortal. Then Vegeta gives a what if scenario about Beerus being able to destroy Zamasu. Even if Beerus does vaporize Zamas, all he'll do is create another timeline. This is where Whis brings up the sealing technique. In order not to create another timeline from beerus wasting Zamas. It's up in the air with the anime if Beerus could accomplish such a feat. It doesn't matter tho, since Toriyama heavily oversaw the manga, we got confirmation from that.
Thats not it.

What Vegeta meant by repeating things is that if Beerus manages to destroy Future Zamasu (And this is a big if) then Inifnite Zamasu will be born and Zeno would have to erase the timeline again.

People fail to realize that it doesn't matter how strong you are, if you don't know or have Zeno erase abilities then you cant do anything to Infinite Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:52 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Miracles wrote:It's right there, in the anime, Goku asks if Beerus could destroy an immortal. Then Vegeta gives a what if scenario about Beerus being able to destroy Zamasu. Even if Beerus does vaporize Zamas, all he'll do is create another timeline. This is where Whis brings up the sealing technique. In order not to create another timeline from beerus wasting Zamas. It's up in the air with the anime if Beerus could accomplish such a feat. It doesn't matter tho, since Toriyama heavily oversaw the manga, we got confirmation from that.
Thats not it.

What Vegeta meant by repeating things is that if Beerus manages to destroy Future Zamasu (And this is a big if) then Inifnite Zamasu will be born and Zeno would have to erase the timeline again.

People fail to realize that it doesn't matter how strong you are, if you don't know or have Zeno erase abilities then you cant do anything to Infinite Zamasu.
You aren't reading the context. Whis said they will go back to a period before Zamas wastes the Kaiohsin, which in turn kills Beerus. In response to that, Vegeta states even if Beerus destroy's an immortal Zamas, he would just create another timeline with another Zamas. Then Whis brings up the sealing technique in response to that. Why would you need Zeno to beat Zamas if Beerus could already possibly destroy him?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:48 pm

How strong do any of you guys think a hypothetical 4th Omen Goku would be?
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Mon Feb 11, 2019 7:22 pm

ruler9871 wrote:How strong do any of you guys think a hypothetical 4th Omen Goku would be?
Wasn't that just the completed Ultra Instinct?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:58 pm

There's no way that characters like Jiren, Kefla ecc. can defeat Infinite Zamasu. Why do you think TOEI made Zeno show up and deal with him in the first place?

Merged Zamasu, on the other hand, is a bug to every version of Jiren, except the one that barely held his own against Goku and Freeza.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Mon Feb 11, 2019 9:32 pm

Zamasu55 wrote:There's no way that characters like Jiren, Kefla ecc. can defeat Infinite Zamasu. Why do you think TOEI made Zeno show up and deal with him in the first place?
Because none of the mortal characters introduced at the time were strong enough to deal with it

Both Beerus and Whis sensed Infinite Zamasu's power across a timeline (and saw one of his faces) and neither of them thought he was a big deal. Yet, Beerus was shooked at Suppressed Jiren's power in the hour special. That's more evidence that Suppressed Jiren>>>Infinite Zamasu
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:03 pm

ruler9871 wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:There's no way that characters like Jiren, Kefla ecc. can defeat Infinite Zamasu. Why do you think TOEI made Zeno show up and deal with him in the first place?
Because none of the mortal characters introduced at the time were strong enough to deal with it

Both Beerus and Whis sensed Infinite Zamasu's power across a timeline (and saw one of his faces) and neither of them thought he was a big deal. Yet, Beerus was shooked at Suppressed Jiren's power in the hour special. That's more evidence that Suppressed Jiren>>>Infinite Zamasu
What are you talking about?

Both Beerus and Whis were visibly worried when they felt Infinite Zamasu.

Hell, Whis says his skin tingles/crawls by sensing it. Nothing Jiren did got that reaction from Whis.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ruler9871 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:03 am

ZombieVito wrote:
ruler9871 wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:There's no way that characters like Jiren, Kefla ecc. can defeat Infinite Zamasu. Why do you think TOEI made Zeno show up and deal with him in the first place?
Because none of the mortal characters introduced at the time were strong enough to deal with it

Both Beerus and Whis sensed Infinite Zamasu's power across a timeline (and saw one of his faces) and neither of them thought he was a big deal. Yet, Beerus was shooked at Suppressed Jiren's power in the hour special. That's more evidence that Suppressed Jiren>>>Infinite Zamasu
What are you talking about?

Both Beerus and Whis were visibly worried when they felt Infinite Zamasu.

Hell, Whis says his skin tingles/crawls by sensing it. Nothing Jiren did got that reaction from Whis.
They were not seriously worried at all, and Whis's comment was no different from reacting to a bug. He never said/implied that Infinite Zamasu was stronger than himself.
zarmack wrote:The whole "Dragonball is only supposed to be light and funny" mentality that exist in a lot of the fandom is in many ways even dumber than the "edgeload" side of the fandom. You know, the contrarians who think DB should be a Slice-of-Life series, the folks who worship Pre-Raditz Dragonball uncritically, the folks who downplay and often flat-out deny that Dragonball is an action series, the folks who try to push that false argument that none of the serious moments in the series were mean't to be taken seriously, etc.

Dragonball doesn't have a single tone. It has both silly and serious moments, both humor and drama, just like real life. The idea that a work of fiction should be only all-comedy or all-serious is unnatural and frankly, retarded.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:04 am

Zamasu55 wrote:Merged Zamasu, on the other hand, is a bug to every version of Jiren, except the one that barely held his own against Goku and Freeza.
I don't buy that. Jiren didn't surpass him until at least ep 127

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:11 am

ruler9871 wrote: They were not seriously worried at all, and Whis's comment was no different from reacting to a bug. He never said/implied that Infinite Zamasu was stronger than himself.
Beerus face says it all but you believe what you want to believe.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Tue Feb 12, 2019 8:34 am

The thing with Infinite Zamasu is that, as the creators stated, he's one of the only true "cheat characters" the series has ever produced.

With his body destroyed, his soul went on to become immaterial and one with the multiverse itself since it was immortal. Simply blowing up everything wouldn't do it. You have to just erase EVERYTHING. Leave absolutely no trace whatsoever in any fashion for him to continue to exist in. And thus far, the only character we've seen with the capacity to erase on that level is Zeno.

While the likes of people on the level of a God of Destruction could probably destroy a Universe if they put in a lot of effort, it wouldn't solve the threat unless they did it to ALL the Universes AND their respective dimensions (a.k.a. the Demon Realm and Otherworld) until absolutely nothing was left whatsoever.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:28 am

Well when talking about the power of Halo Fused Zamasu, we have to remember that he was holding back. He was just playing with Goku and co. In his divine mind, he couldn't even imagine that he would be defeated by lowly mortals, especially after Goku and Vegeta proved to be nothing more but mere fodder. So obviously he was just messing around, hence why he looked so surprised when Vegeta and Trunks pushed back his Holy Wrath, which really wasn't meant to be a sort of "final hope attack", seeing as Zamasu created an identical Holy Wrath literally 5 seconds later. If Fused Zamasu had used his full power from the beginning, I really doubt that Vegeta and Trunks would have been able to push back his Holy Wrath. Such was Zamasu's power, that Super Saiyan Blue Goku had to push himself to the very limits of his power just to push back the Holy Wrath, and in doing so, he utterly broke both his arms. And even then, Fused Zamasu was able to deliver a great deal of pain to Goku before he used the Kaioken which Zamasu wasn't anticipating.

Obviously you might be tempted to say that ep. 109 Jiren stomps Halo Fused Zamasu because Jiren resisted against Blue Kaioken x20 while with Zamasu Goku didn't even have to go x20 to beat him. But you also have to remember that Zamasu was still recovering from half of his face being blown away, and he wasn't expecting Goku to use Kaioken. He probably didn't even know about its existence, despite having Goku's memories and being a Kai prodigy. Rethinking about it, that's why, despite Shin's statement (which was the same for Fused Zamasu, he was also described as being different than any God or mortal faced before), I don't believe that Jiren would just be able to effortlessly wipe out Halo Fused Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Zamasu55 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:50 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Zamasu55 wrote:Merged Zamasu, on the other hand, is a bug to every version of Jiren, except the one that barely held his own against Goku and Freeza.
I don't buy that. Jiren didn't surpass him until at least ep 127
We have direct statements from Vegeta (in ep. 122) and Shin. Yes, Merged Zamasu is a bug to Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:52 pm

SupremeKai25 wrote: I don't believe that Jiren would just be able to effortlessly wipe out Halo Fused Zamasu.
Well, Jiren can’t effortlessly beat Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue form, so that’s a given. He has to be at least a little serious. But I agree with the other points. I would say Zamas is somewhat close to Beerus, as Goku foresaw.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SupremeKai25 » Tue Feb 12, 2019 4:27 pm

Also let's remember all the quotes about Fused Zamasu from episode 65:

Goku: "So that's what he calls the power of divine Light! I have never felt anything like it!"
Vegeta: "This is absurd! Sure I know he's a God but I've never seen anyone release energy like that, deity or not!"
Gowasu: "Such intense energy. I didn't know the power of Light could be so overwhelming."
Shin: "It truly is unprecedented! He's surpassed anything we're capable of comprehending, even on our divine scale."
Hugo Boss wrote:
SupremeKai25 wrote: I don't believe that Jiren would just be able to effortlessly wipe out Halo Fused Zamasu.
Well, Jiren can’t effortlessly beat Goku and Vegeta in their Super Saiyan Blue form, so that’s a given. He has to be at least a little serious. But I agree with the other points. I would say Zamas is somewhat close to Beerus, as Goku foresaw.
Yes, Goku foresaw that Zamasu would become as strong as Beerus if he kept training, and he was just referring to Present Zamasu. Needless to say, Beerus was furious when he heard that. Zamasu was a genius and a prodigy, by the way. He was just an apprentice and yet he was more powerful than the Supreme Kais of every universe.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Tue Feb 12, 2019 6:26 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:The thing with Infinite Zamasu is that, as the creators stated, he's one of the only true "cheat characters" the series has ever produced.

With his body destroyed, his soul went on to become immaterial and one with the multiverse itself since it was immortal. Simply blowing up everything wouldn't do it. You have to just erase EVERYTHING. Leave absolutely no trace whatsoever in any fashion for him to continue to exist in. And thus far, the only character we've seen with the capacity to erase on that level is Zeno.

While the likes of people on the level of a God of Destruction could probably destroy a Universe if they put in a lot of effort, it wouldn't solve the threat unless they did it to ALL the Universes AND their respective dimensions (a.k.a. the Demon Realm and Otherworld) until absolutely nothing was left whatsoever.
I really doubt any GoD or even the GP can destroy someone that was given inmortality by Zalama.

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