Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

Just saw a clip on YouTube that reminded me of a scene.

Kid Trunks turns Super Saiyan and it's enough for Goku to sense him on Beerus' planet. Meanwhile in the Resurrection F saga Goku whilst searching for Ki to lock on to could not sense Gohan even though he was powering up until after he turned Super Saiyan.

So I don't know if it goes Super Saiyan Kid Trunks > Base Gohan > Piccolo or something. It'd make sense.

[DBZ Macky]

Can you guys imagine how strong Merged Zamasu would become if he were possesed by Watagash?

But he has no darkness in his heart, doesn't he?
Whatever actions he took were all for the sake of his own "justice".

Bullza, wouldn't you say that the Trunks and Gohan stuff confirms that the Boo arc kids were at least rivalling Gohan in power, post RoSaT of course.

By my numbers, there's not a huge gap between Gohan and Goten.
Gohan- 50,000,000
Trunks- 40,600,000
Goten- 40,000,000

[Merged Zamasu]

Can you guys imagine how strong Merged Zamasu would become if he were possesed by Watagash?

But he has no darkness in his heart, doesn't he?
Whatever actions he took were all for the sake of his own "justice".

The "darkness" Merged Zamasu had inside him was his hatred for mortals that was consuming him. Just like Gowasu stated, Merged Zamasu's form reflected his inner cruelty, arrogance and madness. Merged Zamasu's body would be a perfect host for Watagash. To Merged Zamasu's already endless power, potential and immortality, you then add Watagash's insane power-up on evil beings, and the result is just...scary to even think of.

[Bullza]

Bullza, wouldn't you say that the Trunks and Gohan stuff confirms that the Boo arc kids were at least rivalling Gohan in power, post RoSaT of course.

I'd say the only thing it would confirm is that Post Rosat Goten and Trunks as Super Saiyans rivaled Gohan only in his Base form. It wouldn't make much sense otherwise.

Goku in his base form was supposed to be weaker than Frieza so naturally all the other Saiyans should have been as well, the kids included. However Base Gohan is stronger than Piccolo whose much stronger than Frieza to which people have tried to explain as it's because of some leftover Mystic power.

So there should be a huge difference between Super Saiyan Gohan and Super Saiyan Goten and Trunks if Base Gohan is so much stronger than everyone else but he doesn't have to be that much stronger that they couldn't surpass him as Super Saiyans.


On another note I just rechecked the anime and I don't know if most of us got mixed up or what but we were under the impression that Tagoma was as strong as Base Gohan right? But according to the fact checker thread that was referring to Tagoma while in Tagoma's body. When Ginyu was in Tagoma's body and brought out his full power then at that point he was stronger than Base Gohan or so I believe.

In the preview Gohan says

“This Tagoma person is on a completely different level from the other soldiers. He’s hiding power at least on par with my own! No way... His power rose even higher?! What's that bizarre pose?!”

So they were on par until Ginyu took over. Which would explain the beat down Ginyu actually gave Base Gohan.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How much stronger is Goku now than he was at the U6 tournament?

[Lord Beerus]

How much stronger is Goku now than he was at the U6 tournament?

If his comment to Hit about much getting stronger than he was at the tournament in that filler episode holds any cloud, than at least 10x times stronger.

[TheUltimateNinja]

How much stronger is Goku now than he was at the U6 tournament?

If his comment to Hit about much getting stronger than he was at the tournament in that filler episode holds any cloud, than at least 10x times stronger.

That's pretty absurd, though. I'm thinking maybe 2x.

[Bullza]

So the Super Saiyan Rose multiplier must be fairly small right?

For Goku turning into a Super Saiyan Blue must make them well over 400 times stronger. Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku but as a Super Saiyan Rose he's probably not more than two or three times as strong as Goku even though it's supposed to be the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue.

Any reason to explain that?

Do we even have an idea of what the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

That's pretty absurd, though. I'm thinking maybe 2x.

Well if Merged Zamasu is stronger than Blue Kaioken x10 Goku in the Universe 6 saga and then Blue Goku Kaioken x2 in the Future Trunks saga is stronger than that then it would mean that Goku was at least about 6 times stronger than he was at the Tournament.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

So the Super Saiyan Rose multiplier must be fairly small right?

For Goku turning into a Super Saiyan Blue must make them well over 400 times stronger. Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku but as a Super Saiyan Rose he's probably not more than two or three times as strong as Goku even though it's supposed to be the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue.

Any reason to explain that?

Do we even have an idea of what the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

SSR is supposed to be Black's regular SS form in the anime, so it should have a x50 multiplier.

As for SSB, base Black* was said to be stronger, but still at around SS3 Goku's level, and SSR Black was stronger, but still around SSB Goku's level, so SSB should be SS3 x50, or SS/SSG x400, or base x2.000.

*Yes, base Black got stronger, but none of his power increases were said to be huge. And maybe he gave SSB Vegeta some trouble, but we know for a fact that Vegeta was holding back against him, and only got serious against SSR Black.

[emperior]

How much stronger is Goku now than he was at the U6 tournament?

If his comment to Hit about much getting stronger than he was at the tournament in that filler episode holds any cloud, than at least 10x times stronger.

That's pretty absurd, though. I'm thinking maybe 2x.

Same here. There's no way Goku got 10 times stronger. He got 4 times stronger at max

[Bullza]

SSR is supposed to be Black's regular SS form in the anime, so it should have a x50 multiplier.

If that were the case then it would all be simple enough but I just dont buy it. There's no way that's just Black as a Super Saiyan. Not after Toriyama's comments and what was seen in the manga.

I can't see it as being equivalent to one version of Super Saiyan in the anime and another in the manga. Nothing ever specifically said it was just his regular Super Saiyan form either.

[TheMikado]

So the Super Saiyan Rose multiplier must be fairly small right?

For Goku turning into a Super Saiyan Blue must make them well over 400 times stronger. Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku but as a Super Saiyan Rose he's probably not more than two or three times as strong as Goku even though it's supposed to be the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue.

Any reason to explain that?

Do we even have an idea of what the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

SSR is supposed to be Black's regular SS form in the anime, so it should have a x50 multiplier.

As for SSB, base Black* was said to be stronger, but still at around SS3 Goku's level, and SSR Black was stronger, but still around SSB Goku's level, so SSB should be SS3 x50, or SS/SSG x400, or base x2.000.

*Yes, base Black got stronger, but none of his power increases were said to be huge. And maybe he gave SSB Vegeta some trouble, but we know for a fact that Vegeta was holding back against him, and only got serious against SSR Black.

SSR is ambiguous at best in the anime. There is no "is".
The best we have to go off of is as to what it actually is is Toriyamas own notes which show that SSJ is Blacks SSJ equivalent, not SSR. Rationalizing it as the SSJ equivalent due to the power levels is bogus when we know power levels aren't worth $h*t in the anime.

Saying SSR is the equivalent of SSJ as a fact is the epitome of head canon when the author actually provides evidence to the contrary.

[HeroR]

That's pretty absurd, though. I'm thinking maybe 2x.

Same here. There's no way Goku got 10 times stronger. He got 4 times stronger at max

What are you basing that on?

Hit was able to fight somewhat evenly with Kaioken x10 Goku thanks to his Time-Skip. Hit got stronger since then and Goku beat Hit without using the Kaioken at all and Goku claim he could beat Hit's Time-Skip. Hit agreed and didn't even try to use it once even Goku broke his dimension.

[Bullza]

Why was the thread renamed to Official Unofficial Dragon Ball Super Power Level Discussion Thread? What's the purpose of that?

Anyway yeah I agree with the above, it can't be treated as the equivalent of Super Saiyan.

It doesn't make sense because the gap between Base Goku and Base Black is tremendously larger than Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Super Saiyan Rose Black.

SSJR Goku being significantly but not ridiculously more powerful than SSJB Goku is fine being that Zamasu stole a version of Goku's body from one year in the future where he'd be stronger. Base Black was always stronger than he should be.

Maybe the SSJB/R form stayed the same strenght the entire time while Base Black grew stronger and stronger. Which would mean that SSJR was a set level rather than a multiplier.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

SSR is supposed to be Black's regular SS form in the anime, so it should have a x50 multiplier.

If that were the case then it would all be simple enough but I just dont buy it. There's no way that's just Black as a Super Saiyan. Not after Toriyama's comments and what was seen in the manga.

I can't see it as being equivalent to one version of Super Saiyan in the anime and another in the manga. Nothing ever specifically said it was just his regular Super Saiyan form either.

So the Super Saiyan Rose multiplier must be fairly small right?

For Goku turning into a Super Saiyan Blue must make them well over 400 times stronger. Base Black is over 400 times stronger than Base Goku but as a Super Saiyan Rose he's probably not more than two or three times as strong as Goku even though it's supposed to be the equivalent of Super Saiyan Blue.

Any reason to explain that?

Do we even have an idea of what the Super Saiyan Blue multiplier is?

SSR is supposed to be Black's regular SS form in the anime, so it should have a x50 multiplier.

As for SSB, base Black* was said to be stronger, but still at around SS3 Goku's level, and SSR Black was stronger, but still around SSB Goku's level, so SSB should be SS3 x50, or SS/SSG x400, or base x2.000.

*Yes, base Black got stronger, but none of his power increases were said to be huge. And maybe he gave SSB Vegeta some trouble, but we know for a fact that Vegeta was holding back against him, and only got serious against SSR Black.

SSR is ambiguous at best in the anime. There is no "is".
The best we have to go off of is as to what it actually is is Toriyamas own notes which show that SSJ is Blacks SSJ equivalent, not SSR. Rationalizing it as the SSJ equivalent due to the power levels is bogus when we know power levels aren't worth $h*t in the anime.

Saying SSR is the equivalent of SSJ as a fact is the epitome of head canon when the author actually provides evidence to the contrary.

Except that the anime ignored Toriyama, and removed regular Super Saiyan from Black. Plus, promotional stuff for the anime stated that Super Saiyan Rosé is Black's regular Super Saiyan, so it isn't headcanon.

[TheMikado]

^ and how do you know this??? By your logic saiyans also lost the ozaru form in Super even if they had tails. I guess by your logic Goku also isn't able to do a KKx10xSSB anymore. Come on theres not even any evidence to logically draw that conclusion. If you were to draw any conclusion it's that Black doesn't have a SSJ equivalent in the anime.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

^ and how do you know this??? By your logic saiyans also lost the ozaru form in Super even if they had tails. I guess by your logic Goku also isn't able to do a KKx10xSSB anymore. Come on theres not even any evidence to logically draw that conclusion. If you were to draw any conclusion it's that Black doesn't have a SSJ equivalent in the anime.

Because a) it is never mentioned anywhere, and b) SSR is his regular Super Saiyan in the anime. It's not an assumption, a conclusion, or a headcanon, it is officially stated.

[Zamasu55]

How much stronger is Goku now than he was at the U6 tournament?

At least 10 times stronger.

[HeroR]

^ and how do you know this??? By your logic saiyans also lost the ozaru form in Super even if they had tails. I guess by your logic Goku also isn't able to do a KKx10xSSB anymore. Come on theres not even any evidence to logically draw that conclusion. If you were to draw any conclusion it's that Black doesn't have a SSJ equivalent in the anime.

Because a) it is never mentioned anywhere, and b) SSR is his regular Super Saiyan in the anime. It's not an assumption, a conclusion, or a headcanon, it is officially stated.

All it said that Super Saiyan Rose was Black's version of Super Saiyan. The same anime that called Super Saiyan 2 just Super Saiyan. Using Toriyma's own words, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions of Super Saiyan, not new forms, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan with god ki.

[DBZGTKOSDH]

All it said that Super Saiyan Rose was Black's version of Super Saiyan. The same anime that called Super Saiyan 2 just Super Saiyan.

Super Saiyan 2 is Super Saiyan, but it's not the regular Super Saiyan, nor a different version of Super Saiyan. It is something beyond Super Saiyan. Super Saiyan Rosé was never described as such anywhere in the anime, or in its promotional info, it is described as Black's version of Super Saiyan, like Broli's purple Super Saiyan form from Movie 8. Toriyama may have had viewed the form differently, but Toei chose to do it their way, unlike Toyotaro.

Using Toriyma's own words, Super Saiyan 2 and 3 are just extensions of Super Saiyan, not new forms, and Super Saiyan God Super Saiyan is just Super Saiyan with god ki.

Toriyama never said that they are not new forms, the manga itself states that they are all transformations. Super Saiyan Grade 2, Super Saiyan Grade 3, Super Saiyan 2, Super Saiyan 3, and Super Saiyan Blue are all powered-up variations of the Super Saiyan form according to Toriyama, or you if you rephrase that according to the manga, transformations that surpass Super Saiyan (and Super Saiyan God, for Super Saiyan Blue).