Moderators: General Help, Kanzenshuu Staff
(i know he was caught of guard, but still looked pretty darn painful). But I'm pretty sure all of us agree that sidra is nothing to jiren, as sidra is potentially low level hakaishin.I've never denied the possibility of a rough powerscaling that somewhat defines the limit of what a character can and cannot do. That is common sense and isn't the point of my argument. 17 obviously can't be stronger than Goku. Krillin obviously can't be stronger than 17. You're the one who suggested that it could be precise enough to support Toshio's statement of Gohan >= 17. Again, if Toriyama ever said anything along the lines of "17 is about as strong as Gohan, but NOT stronger", then it would've manifested in some shape or form because the author himself cared enough to draw the line. It not being relevant enough to be shown is just an excuse on your part, because the most the writers would have to do is simply not portray 17 to be more impressive than Gohan.Marlowe89 wrote: It doesn't imply that Toriyama played no role at all, which was my point. There's more than enough room for the possibility of some prior specification for 17's strength with the information provided, and it doesn't particularly matter whether that specification was made through a comparison to Gohan's power or not.
The context isn't the damn point. It was besides the point. I said Herms initial translation was wrong because that's simply not what Goku said. Again, you don't need an advanced degree in math to know that 2 + 2 = 5 is wrong. Not being more proficient in Japanese than Herms =/= zero familiarity with Japanese. The world isn't as black and white as you think it is. Of course you don't have to believe someone you barely know who barely has any credibility, but any rational person would first consider the plausibility of what was being said and try to find out for themselves instead of immediately dismissing it because of the person behind it.Only on your behalf. Again, your interpretation of the context has no relevance to the way a statement is worded. If you have no familiarity with Japanese, you yourself can't be trusted as to which translation is more accurate. This is common sense.
It does, when put together with the rest of the dialogues in that episode. The authorial intention is pretty obvious.The alternative doesn't necessarily specify anything about 17's power anyway, especially in a series where Goku is constantly skipping over 3/God and in one episode even stated that he was going to use a little more power than his Super Saiyan 2 form only to go straight to Blue.
Lol. Making 17 hold back against freaking SSB makes his power far less ambiguous than it could've been had it not stated that he was also holding back.They were getting across that he was a formidable fighter while keeping his exact strength ambiguous, hence why both characters were holding back. It's just a way to elevate the drama in fights without committing to an exact scale.
Sigh. Toshio saying that Goku use SSB to motivate 17 directly contradicts Goku's own statement about not intending to use SSB. 17 pushed him to use it. This is basic logic, I don't see how this is even arguable. Stop discarding authorial intentions that doesn't suit your narrative. Also, 17 knew nothing about how godly a transformation SSB is, he saw it for the first time during that fight and wasn't even impressed. I don't know how anyone could see something so stupidly illogical and say with a straight face that it's "perfectly logical and consistent".No it doesn't. If you can't reliably prove how much Goku was holding back, you literally have no precedent to claim that anything conflicts with Toshio's clarification at all. I'm actually astounded that I have to explain something like this. The fact of the matter is that your argument is still based on nothing.
Yeah, sure.See above. You are disagreeing with the writer, and you're obviously the only person here "picking and choosing" which authorial intentions suit your narrative (which is actually none, because even the ones you claim provide support for your viewpoint don't actually do so). I'm merely adopting what was stated by the writer himself and conveyed through official materials, none of which is actually contradicted by the show in the slightest.
Hm completely agree with you on this. Toshio saying Gokou only transforming into Super Saiyan Blue as a motivation against Artificial Human No.17 is completely contradictory and disingenuous to what happened in Super episode 86. Gokou was blatantly pushed to transform into Super Saiyan Blue against No.17 as he said he no intention to transform into that form.NthNewbie wrote: Sigh. Toshio saying that Goku use SSB to motivate 17 directly contradicts Goku's own statement about not intending to use SSB. 17 pushed him to use it. This is basic logic, I don't see how this is even arguable. Stop discarding authorial intentions that doesn't suit your narrative.
No, I said it could have been precise enough to remain consistent with Toshio's statements. Not that it matters either way, because my point was that Toshio's opinions still have authorial status given that he is one of the writers of the show.NthNewbie wrote:You're the one who suggested that it could be precise enough to support Toshio's statement of Gohan >= 17.
Yet another baseless conclusion that doesn't logically follow at all. The writers have some creative leeway, so obviously it's within the writers' best interests to know how the characters are scaled regardless of whether they decide to indicate it within the final product or not. Toriyama could have specified a bunch of things that weren't necessarily relevant, if only for the sake of maintaining some consistency down the road in case the writers decided to make it relevant.Again, if Toriyama ever said anything along the lines of "17 is about as strong as Gohan, but NOT stronger", then it would've manifested in some shape or form because the author himself cared enough to draw the line.
Based on what, exactly? Unless I'm missing something, you haven't provided any reasoning for this beyond "they're two very different translations and I recognized the correct one" and arguments from context/characterization. I'm genuinely curious as to how you believe the wording would eliminate one possibility but not the other.I said Herms initial translation was wrong because that's simply not what Goku said.
It doesn't when put together with nearly everything else in the series. The authorial intention was how Toshio described it when he clarified it on Twitter.It does, when put together with the rest of the dialogues in that episode. The authorial intention is pretty obvious.
17 was holding back against a suppressed version of SSB that was also holding back. The same situation was described to happen between Goku and Beerus during the first arc of Super. Goku could have been using 10% of Blue's power while 17 could have been using 75% of his own power (these are just random numbers for the sake of the argument) and the statement would hold. We know that Goku would have been holding back a lot more than 17 anyway given that his Super Saiyan Blue form was portrayed to be far stronger in the tournament.Making 17 hold back against freaking SSB makes his power far less ambiguous than it could've been had it not stated that he was also holding back.
There's no direct contradiction because A.) there are conflicting translations, the other of which hasn't been contested on the grounds of its phrasing yet, B.) Goku has been known to actively skip over transformations between 2 and Blue altogether, even when he only intended to use a marginal increase in power over 2, and C.) the translation you're referring to doesn't specify an exact time frame; did Goku not intend to use it going into the fight, or did he not intend to use it at that moment? His past-tense phrasing is vague enough to leave room for Toshio's specified context.Toshio saying that Goku use SSB to motivate 17 directly contradicts Goku's own statement about not intending to use SSB.
Except he was, to a certain extent. So again, all they had to do was not make 17 appear stronger than Gohan. I'm not disagreeing that not everything that goes down in a discussion can be shown. But how exactly did they decide what makes it into the show then? That's the link you're missing. Not everything can be shown, but they show 17 doing better than Gohan instead of the other way round, which would be an odd choice if Gohan was specified to be at least stronger.Marlowe89 wrote: 17 wasn't portrayed to be more impressive than Gohan, at least in terms of strength, so my point stands.
Sigh. It wasn't. Go back and reread if you have to. It was a "by the way" thing. Goku did indeed sound OOC, at least to me, and we know that it was a mistranslation.Marlowe89 wrote: Your interpretation of the context was entirely your point, otherwise you wouldn't have made arguments outside the scope of the statement itself.
What exactly do you mean by saying the phrasing is incorrect?You yourself alluded to not having the same familiarity with Japanese as Herms. If you can't explain why the translation's phrasing itself is incorrect (as other translators often do) then you simply can't be trusted with choosing which translation is more accurate.
You didn't ask, and I didn't see the point in doing it since you clearly don't understand Japanese so what would be the point? It's not like you can tell whether my explanation is valid even if I do explain myself. You're always free to use google translate however, this is what Goku said: 本当はしないつもりだったけんどよThe fact that you haven't attempted to do so for several posts now despite having more than enough opportunity already makes you suspect, frankly.
Toshio wrote the episode. So he contradicted himself. Even if it was a different writer, there's still a contradiction. For the 3925th time, you can't just pick and choose whatever suits your narrative.It doesn't when put together with nearly everything else in the series. The authorial intention was how Toshio described it when he clarified it on Twitter.
It's still making his power less ambiguous, not more. If 17 wasn't stated to be holding back then we wouldn't know if he was closer to SSB or SSJ3/SSG on the scale. The fact that he was also holding back and still going toe to toe against SSB makes it far more likely for him to be in that tier than not, in terms of portrayal. Bringing up random numbers is meaningless because we have no proof of how much either of them were really using.17 was holding back against a suppressed version of SSB that was also holding back. The same situation was described to happen between Goku and Beerus during the first arc of Super. Goku could have been using 10% of Blue's power while 17 could have been using 75% of his own power (these are just random numbers for the sake of the argument) and the statement would hold. We know that Goku would have been holding back a lot more than 17 anyway given that his Super Saiyan Blue form was portrayed to be far stronger in the tournament.
Dude, there isn't. Herms translated it wrong as he watched the episode but he clearly corrected himself in the episode summary, as I showed you previously. There's nothing to contest about an obvious mistranslation by someone who realized and corrected his own mistake. You'd have to be grasping at straws at this point.There's no direct contradiction because A.) there are conflicting translations, the other of which hasn't been contested on the grounds of its phrasing yet
Maybe. Except that's not how the episode and its dialogues portrayed 17's strength. They didn't just make 17 push Goku to use SSB, they also included all these unnecessary dialogues like Dende saying he'd be terrifying as an enemy and Goku agreeing with that statement, when all they needed to say was 17 has gotten unexpectedly stronger to hype him up. The fact that 17 pushed Goku to SSB simply reinforced the intention behind these dialogues further, especially when you consider that Goku wasn't pushed to SSB against Gohan.B.) Goku has been known to actively skip over transformations between 2 and Blue altogether, even when he only intended to use a marginal increase in power over 2.
It doesn't matter which one it is, because both contradict Goku using it as motivation. If he didn't plan on using it going into the fight, then he definitely wasn't using it midway just to motivate 17. If he didn't intend to use it at that moment, then he definitely wasn't using just to motivate 17.C.) the translation you're referring to doesn't specify an exact time frame; did Goku not intend to use it going into the fight, or did he not intend to use it at that moment? The past-tense phrasing is vague enough to leave room for Toshio's specified context.
Yeah, no. Unlike you, I'm not selective of authorial intentions that only suit my narrative. The ones that I disagree with I only disagree with because they're contradictory.You're the one discarding authorial intentions, and stated ones at that, so it's ironic that you're suddenly accusing me of doing what you've been blatantly committing throughout this entire discussion.
I brought up those random numbers to show that the possibility is consistent with what's stated in the episode. "We have no proof of how much either of them were really using" was my point to you; to specify that 17 was also holding back objectively doesn't bring 17 any closer to Blue tier than simply saying that Goku was holding back. If Goku was the only one said to be holding back, there would have been less ambiguity in terms of comparing the two characters, which would completely invalidate any potential excitement within the episode because the viewers would already know that Goku is stronger.NthNewbie wrote:Bringing up random numbers is meaningless because we have no proof of how much either of them were really using.
The first one doesn't. If Goku didn't plan on using it shortly prior to the fight but decided to use it for motivational purposes within the fight, there's no inconsistency. We don't know Goku's thought process nor Toshio's.NthNewbie wrote: It doesn't matter which one it is, because both contradict Goku using it as motivation. If he didn't plan on using it going into the fight, then he definitely wasn't using it midway just to motivate 17. If he didn't intend to use it at that moment, then he definitely wasn't using just to motivate 17.
Lets assume that Goku was using only 10%. If 17 wasn't holding back he'd be using 80-100% against Goku's 10%, if he was holding back he could've been using anywhere from 30-75% against Goku's 10%. So stating that 17 was also holding back does bring him closer to SSB, we just don't know by how much.Marlowe89 wrote: I broght up those random numbers to show that the possibility is consistent with what's stated in the episode. "We have no proof of how much either of them were really using" was my point to you; to specify that 17 was also holding back objectively doesn't bring 17 any closer to Blue tier than simply saying that Goku was holding back.
I would've agreed with this if only it wasn't obvious that Goku was still the stronger of the two. Literally no one thinks 17 could be stronger, so there's really not much mystery there. This could work if it's someone else that isn't Goku.If Goku was the only one said to be holding back, there would have been less ambiguity in terms of comparing the two characters, which would completely invalidate any potential excitement within the episode because the viewers would already know that Goku is stronger.
One could argue that 17 didn't even try to stand up in the black hole, not the way Goku did.Of course, looking at the tournament, SSB Goku is stronger than 17 -- so much so that I'd venture to say they're not reasonably within the same tier at all, particularly given the showing with U2's Pretty Black Hole.
Context tho, we clearly see 17 thrashing SSJ Goku that pushed him to use blue, so his statement about not intending to use it falls in line with what was happening. Why would he randomly feel the need to go blue to "motivate" 17 in the middle of a fight he was losing, while telling him that he didn't intend to use it? I think the authorial intention was obvious for that dialogue.The first one doesn't. If Goku didn't plan on using it shortly prior to the fight but decided to use it for motivational purposes within the fight, there's no inconsistency. We don't know Goku's thought process nor Toshio's.
Sure, no hard feelings.This has dragged on for long enough that we've strayed from my initial points, and I really don't feel like engaging in all this back-and-forth quoting, so I don't see any reason to continue this much longer.
Sure, but that's only if we use the same arbitrary percentage for Goku in both cases. I was operating more along generalities for the purposes of my argument.NthNewbie wrote: Lets assume that Goku was using only 10%. If 17 wasn't holding back he'd be using 80-100% against Goku's 10%, if he was holding back he could've been using anywhere from 30-75% against Goku's 10%. So stating that 17 was also holding back does bring him closer to SSB, we just don't know by how much.
Yeah, I definitely don't see that being anything less than pure chaos. Maybe if it's a short one they can make the consistency work.Bullza wrote:God forbid how confusing it's going to be make sense of this Dragon Ball Heroes anime.
Its a promotional anime. It isnt wven going to be long. Just promoting the game.Bullza wrote:God forbid how confusing it's going to be make sense of this Dragon Ball Heroes anime.
I seriously doubt Goku was at full strength against Toppo.ToshioWrites wrote:Based on Raw scans , looks like CSSB Vegeta has a serious edge on Toppo. Obviously don't have the translations yet but seems like what I thought before about Toppo was true. His power is decently below CSSB . If Goku hadn't let his guard down, he would have clocked him since Whis stated Goku and Vegeta were equals in Ch 27.
I wouldn't be sure about that . All 3 magical girls gang up on 18 so...Bullza wrote:I haven't seen many scans. What I do see may imply Ribrianne is above Android 18?
This isn’t something new. Whis also stated in the anime that Ultra Instinct is the limit-breaking power of the gods, whose implication can be exactly what Goku said in that blurb. The curious thing is that some gods might be able to use this power as well. The moment names are mentioned it would be safe to say something.Kenneth La Torre wrote:https://ibb.co/fAOwy8
I know this is a game, but no matter where we get our information on UI from, its always stated to be above the gods, period.
We are so close to getting an outright statement, but yet feels so far.
