Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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JazzMazz
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 3:25 am

Rally 07 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: He wasn't transformations aren't multipliers, he was saying the number the transformations are a multiplier of(with the slight exception of Kaio-Ken), are almost entirely arbitrary.
How are the transformations or the Kaioken technique arbitrary though? That still doesn't even make sense to claim to be perfectly honest.
JazzMazz wrote: The number for the multiplier of each transformation is almost completely irrelevant to how the story is told. The purpose of each transformation, is basically to visually communicate how another character can surpass another character they were fighting evenly with or even losing to in a stylish fashion to the audience. It also communicates the basic vague idea of how strong said character is.
How another character can surpass another character? Well have you or PinWheel really seen Dragon Ball or Z or Super? Because even if a character transforms, that doesn't necessarily mean he could surpass his opponent. Like Gokou vs. Freeza on Namek, even when transformed he still had an tough and intense fight against Freeza. Gokou has transformed against plenty of opponents and has lost. Then later as a Super Saiyan 3 against Kid Boo, Gokou lost to him blatantly. So transformations and power ups are only just a plot device. The problem with saying transforming is plot and only plot; I mean yes indeed it is plot. But with power scaling, it is essentially a certain sense of the plot. And that sense is the power of the characters. And what power scaling does is basically extrapolating a certain sense of Dragon Ball's plot which is the power of the characters.
Ok, I am now completely convinced you actually didn't watch the video's your trying to critique, because he literally used the the example of Goku and Freeza's fight on Namek to justify his point.

My best advice to you is to actually watch the video's before poorly potraying the points presented in them.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:41 am

JazzMazz wrote: My best advice to you is to actually watch the video before poorly potraying the points presented in them.
Thanks for sharing it. I never came across his videos, but he actually has good points. Time to time, I see some Dragon Ball fans pretending these multipliers have some relevance to the narrative. I mean, there is no problem in assigning numbers to the characters that weren’t given properly, but this is a very subjective matter and won’t influence in how the public interacts with the franchise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:43 am

Hugo Boss wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: My best advice to you is to actually watch the video's before poorly potraying the points presented in them.
Thanks for sharing it. I never came across his videos, but he actually has good points. Time to time, I see some Dragon Ball fans pretending these multipliers have some relevance to the narrative. I mean, there is no problem in assigning numbers to the characters that weren’t given properly, but this is a very subjective matter and won’t influence in how the public interacts with the franchise.
Oh crap. Forgot to link the follow-up video he made.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:46 am

JazzMazz wrote: Ok, I am now completely convinced you actually didn't watch the video's your trying to critique, because he literally used the the example of Goku and Freeza's fight on Namek to justify his point.
Oh I watched the video, what's ridiculous about PinWheel's video is his outrageous claim that transformations are not any sort of multiplier despite the fact that there are Dragon Ball guidebooks such as the Super Exciting Guides that state the Super Saiyan transformation is a bare minimum 50 times multiplier. Not to mention, even in the series itself; the transformation multipliers can be increased through training like Gokou and Gohan's mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation which is monstrously more powerful in comparison to normal Super Saiyans and yes that includes Vegeta and Future Trunks' Super Saiyan forms which have increased in power in the Room of Spirit and Time. So yes transformations are indeed a multiplier and not solely just a plot device in that sense. He doesn't even acknowledges the evidence for transformations being a multiplier as PinWheel probably doesn't even have any knowledge that this evidence exists. He's basically speaking and claiming such out of ignorance. I'm not trying to critique his entire video as I only really found it wrong to claim transformations don't offer any multiplier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 26, 2018 2:30 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
JazzMazz wrote: Ok, I am now completely convinced you actually didn't watch the video's your trying to critique, because he literally used the the example of Goku and Freeza's fight on Namek to justify his point.
Oh I watched the video, what's ridiculous about PinWheel's video is his outrageous claim that transformations are not any sort of multiplier despite the fact that there are Dragon Ball guidebooks such as the Super Exciting Guides that state the Super Saiyan transformation is a bare minimum 50 times multiplier. Not to mention, even in the series itself; the transformation multipliers can be increased through training like Gokou and Gohan's mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation which is monstrously more powerful in comparison to normal Super Saiyans and yes that includes Vegeta and Future Trunks' Super Saiyan forms which have increased in power in the Room of Spirit and Time. So yes transformations are indeed a multiplier and not solely just a plot device in that sense. He doesn't even acknowledges the evidence for transformations being a multiplier as PinWheel probably doesn't even have any knowledge that this evidence exists. He's basically speaking and claiming such out of ignorance. I'm not trying to critique his entire video as I only really found it wrong to claim transformations don't offer any multiplier.
I think you misunderstood his point, like the people he commented about. Actually, he said he believes the number which is used to multiply is almost entirely arbitrary and, only, it isn’t completely arbitrary because kaioken already has an established multiplier and a stronger transformation can’t have a lower multiplier than that. He even shows Toriyama’s comment translated by SaiyaJedi, so claiming he doesn’t know what he is talking about strikes me as an exaggeration.

In a nutshell, at the end of day it doesn’t matter if Super Saiyan has a 50-fold or 1 billion-fold boost, the story doesn’t give any relevance to it. Simply put, transformations only have the purpose to show a character is getting stronger. Metaphorically saying, they are not “multipliers”.

In another hand, there is nothing suggesting the 50-fold boost changed for the mastered Super Saiyan form, despite the SEG also having something to say about SS2 and SS3. And more importantly, there is nothing suggesting Gohan’s ultimate form has one, even if it’s possible that it does.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:06 pm

Honestly, I prefer to use "boost", rather than multiplication unless the franchise specifically calls out multiplication of power.

It's a bit less specific in connotation but still fulfills the same basic role of describing a growth in power from another state of being.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Thu Apr 26, 2018 6:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Simply put, transformations only have the purpose to show a character is getting stronger. Metaphorically saying, they are not “multipliers”.
Umm well yeah, the transformations in the sense of the story are there to display how a character gets powerful however. The multipliers of the transformations or any other power up/boost are still there. Plus saying they're not multipliers "metaphorically" contradicts whats stated concerning the transformations. As you should very well know the guidebooks such as the Super Exciting Guide, Daizenshuu, and even Akira Toriyama's words himself.
Hugo Boss wrote: In another hand, there is nothing suggesting the 50-fold boost changed for the mastered Super Saiyan form. And more importantly, there is nothing suggesting Gohan’s ultimate form has one, even if it’s possible that it does.
And I hope you do remember watching the Artificial Human and Cell story arcs. As Gokou and Gohan's mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation granted them a big boost in power and they both became monstrous in comparison to the other Super Saiyans. Hell even Gokou at half power surprised everyone at the Lookout. Not to mention the several grades of Super Saiyan which are mutations and obviously stronger than your normal Super Saiyan and how they increase a Saiyan's power.
And Gohan's Ultimate transformation likely has a multiplier or some sort of power up dude. If he didn't then what was the point of Old Kaioshin giving Gohan that transformation if it didn't offer any boost in power? Also the Ultimate transformation is a bare minimum 300 times multiplier in the Majin Boo story arc. And that's just the Majin Boo story arc. Albeit, the Ultimate transformation may not have any sort of stamina drain though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Thu Apr 26, 2018 10:19 pm

Rally 07 wrote:Plus saying they're not multipliers "metaphorically" contradicts whats stated concerning the transformations. As you should very well know the guidebooks such as the Super Exciting Guide, Daizenshuu, and even Akira Toriyama's words himself.
I don’t know how many times this was said, but there is no contradiction between what is officially stated and what he said. Unless you are not paying attention, the point is about people not imagining transformations as a static multiplier when they are reading/watching Dragon Ball. Most of the people don’t care about this detail and much less the people who work with the story, given the lack of exposition in the main product.
And I hope you do remember watching the Artificial Human and Cell story arcs. As Gokou and Gohan's mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation granted them a big boost in power and they both became monstrous in comparison to the other Super Saiyans. Hell even Gokou at half power surprised everyone at the Lookout. Not to mention the several grades of Super Saiyan which are mutations and obviously stronger than your normal Super Saiyan and how they increase a Saiyan's power.
And Gohan's Ultimate transformation likely has a multiplier or some sort of power up dude. If he didn't then what was the point of Old Kaioshin giving Gohan that transformation if it didn't offer any boost in power? Also the Ultimate transformation is a bare minimum 300 times multiplier in the Majin Boo story arc. And that's just the Majin Boo story arc. Albeit, the Ultimate transformation may not have any sort of stamina drain though.
I don’t need to remember because I check it before posting it. It’s very true that Goku and Gohan became stronger but there is nothing saying the increase in power was only exclusive to their Super Saiyan form. It’s basically the same Super Saiyan with less drawbacks and more suited to long fights. I don’t have much to say about the “grade 2 and 3” forms beyond that they are powered-up forms of the regular Super Saiyan that were discarded. Gohan’s ultimate form though is only meant to draw out dormant power, which it’s assumed to be greater than his Super Saiyan forms. Despite that, it wasn’t assigned any multiplier to it, just that it is a form in which Gohan has might surpassing Goku.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:51 am

We should power scale Dragon ball Heroes characters.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:55 am

SayianBeyondGod wrote:We should power scale Dragon ball Heroes characters.
I'd be interested in that myself.

I believe Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno is supposed to be close to Super Saiyan Blue Goku as of the...Future Trunks saga?

Final Form Mira and Super Saiyan 4 Broly are just as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno.

Demon God Dabura was stronger than a powered up Kid Buu. I imagine the other Demon Gods would be.

Mechikabura is stronger than them all even in old age. In his peak, he could really be up there.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SayianBeyondGod » Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:27 am

Bullza wrote:
SayianBeyondGod wrote:We should power scale Dragon ball Heroes characters.
I'd be interested in that myself.

I believe Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno is supposed to be close to Super Saiyan Blue Goku as of the...Future Trunks saga?

Final Form Mira and Super Saiyan 4 Broly are just as strong as Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno.
Actually Universe mission SSB Goku is post ToP and SSJ4 Xeno Goku is weaker though they're in the same range. If you played the arcade game, Xeno Goku stated SSB Goku was a step ahead.

Final Form Mira was stronger considering in Dark Demon Relam Manga he ended up suriving the beam clash with the other two being incapacitated. If we're using Final Form Mira from Xenoverse he'll be a lot stronger though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:17 am

Hugo Boss wrote: It’s very true that Goku and Gohan became stronger but there is nothing saying the increase in power was only exclusive to their Super Saiyan form.
It's very true that Gokou and Gohan became stronger but there's nothing saying the increase in power was only exclusive to their Super Saiyan form? Well I didn't say that necessarily. I said the power increase due to their mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation made them monstrous in comparison to other Super Saiyans even at half power. The increase is something unlocked upon the mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation. Not to mention, less stamina consumption, and ability to use the full power and potential of the transformation.
Hugo Boss wrote: Gohan’s ultimate form though is only meant to draw out dormant power, which it’s assumed to be greater than his Super Saiyan forms. Despite that, it wasn’t assigned any multiplier to it, just that it is a form in which Gohan has might surpassing Goku.
Um yes it did that. However you need to remember it is a transformation rather than a Base form. But either way, there's still some sort of increase with it. Or at least Dragon Ball Super retconned it with episode 88, making Gohan's Ultimate transformation a form he can transform into from Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2. Now it's basically a transformation that can be stacked on top of the others and Base form.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 11:18 am

SayianBeyondGod wrote:We should power scale Dragon ball Heroes characters.
To be honest that would be quite interesting to scale. I normally don't scale the video games but it would be a nice change though.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Fri Apr 27, 2018 12:17 pm

It can be a bit hard to scale because the Game Opening and the Manga are similar but they're different too. I'll have a crack at it though while I watch this video.

Mechikabura

Super Saiyan 4 Gogeta Xeno

Super Saiyan 4 Goku Xeno | Super Saiyan 4 Broly (Dark Dragon Ball) | Final Form Mira | Dark Masked King

Super Saiyan Gogeta Xeno

Lord Slug (Dark Dragon Ball)

Janemba (Dark Dragon Ball)

Base Vegito Xeno | Demon God Kid Buu

Base Gohanks

Super Saiyan 3 Goku Xeno

Demon God Towa | Gravy | Dabura | Shroom | Demigra | Turles (Dark Dragon Ball)

Kid Buu (Dark Dragon Ball)

Base Goku Xeno

Cell (Dark Dragon Ball)

Frieza (Dark Dragon Ball)

That's the best I could come up without over thinking it and just assuming all the Demon Gods are of equal power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Fri Apr 27, 2018 1:22 pm

Rally 07 wrote:[...] I said the power increase due to their mastery of the Super Saiyan transformation made them monstrous in comparison to other Super Saiyans even at half power. [...]

[...] you need to remember it is a transformation rather than a Base form. [...]
You are saying two things that aren’t implied anywhere. One: full power Super Saiyan has a greater multiplier than regular Super Saiyan. Two: ultimate form has a multiplier. See that Kaioken and Super Saiyan 1/2/3 are the only transformations in Dragon Ball that have multipliers assigned (in Super Saiyan’s case from suplementary material and none of them make a difference between full power Super Saiyan and regular Super Saiyan), so I don’t understand this need to generalizate this multiplier case to the several other transformations of this franchise.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Apr 27, 2018 2:41 pm

SayianBeyondGod wrote:We should power scale Dragon ball Heroes characters.
Kinda nearly impossible. If you keep up with everything heroes related, youll see that certain characters fluctuate in power a lot throughout
The “series”.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: One: full power Super Saiyan has a greater multiplier than regular Super Saiyan.


Yes. However both grades of the Super Saiyan transformation has a bare minimum 50 times multiplier. It would make sense considering how Gokou and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms were superior to Vegeta and Future Trunks' Super Saiyan forms. Not to mention the Daizenshuu and El Manga Legendario confirm that the mastered Super Saiyan grade is superior to Super Saiyan. Even at the lookout, while using only half power, Gokou absolutely shocked everyone including Vegeta and Future Trunks, the same guys who unlocked Super Saiyan grades 2 and 3 which are more powerful than normal Super Saiyan. It pretty clear that grade 4 or mastered Super Saiyan is definitely more powerful, surpassing even grades 3 and 4.
Hugo Boss wrote: Two: ultimate form has a multiplier.
Yes it does. It is a transformation that can be stacked on top of the other Super Saiyan transformations Gohan possesses. It likely has some sort of multiplier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:41 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote: Kinda nearly impossible. If you keep up with everything heroes related, youll see that certain characters fluctuate in power a lot throughout
The “series”.
Pretty much this -- the guys in charge of Heroes probably think about power scaling even less than the writers for Super. Seems like a fruitless effort if you ask me.

Besides, this kind of topic seems like it would fit the In-Universe Discussion subforum better.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Kenneth La Torre » Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:47 pm

Ultimate doesnt have a multiplier. It is a form that releases someones dormant powers. Its quite evident since gohans power now rivals somewhat a ssb/ssg, when he was only a couple of times stronger than a ssj3 goku in the buu saga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:36 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: One: full power Super Saiyan has a greater multiplier than regular Super Saiyan.


Yes. However both grades of the Super Saiyan transformation has a bare minimum 50 times multiplier. It would make sense considering how Gokou and Gohan's Super Saiyan forms were superior to Vegeta and Future Trunks' Super Saiyan forms. Not to mention the Daizenshuu and El Manga Legendario confirm that the mastered Super Saiyan grade is superior to Super Saiyan. Even at the lookout, while using only half power, Gokou absolutely shocked everyone including Vegeta and Future Trunks, the same guys who unlocked Super Saiyan grades 2 and 3 which are more powerful than normal Super Saiyan. It pretty clear that grade 4 or mastered Super Saiyan is definitely more powerful, surpassing even grades 3 and 4.
SSJ Grade 4 being superior to SSJ doesn't mean it's referring to a power increase; we know that it's the same thing but with less stamina drain, therefore it's superior.
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