Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Rally 07]

So it's possible the first Omen is stronger in power than the second.

Well I disagree with that. Why would the first, initial Ultra Instinct Omen from Super episode 110 be stronger than the second Ultra Instinct Omen from Super episode 116. That really wouldn't make a lot of sense, as Gokou has more than likely grown more powerful from Super episode 110 with a Zenkai Boost being pushed beyond his limits and almost dying fighting against the Genkidama. Also from fighting Kefura. Also I'd like to say that there is more evidence that Gokou has indeed gotten stronger from Super episode 110. And that evidence is from the Kefura vs. Gokou fight. Also looking at Gokou and Kefura's fight for the tenth or so time; I realized Gokou is gotten way stronger from episode 110 and this is apparent with Kefura's kick. With that single kick, that likely rivals the Genkidama, Gokou was able to take that hit. Albeit he was caught by surprise, but he didn't need to transform into Ultra Instinct while breaking and surpassing his limits to counter that kick. Whereas with the Genkidama, he had to break his limits and transform into Ultra Instinct. This is further supported by Whis in episode 116 as he states Kefura's kick incited Gokou and acted as a stimulus for Gokou to break his limits and allowed him to transform into Ultra Instinct just like the Genkidama. So it would make sense the second trigger would be stronger than the first trigger. The second Ultra Instinct would be a lot stronger the the first; which the first surpassed the Genkidama, and this same Genkidama is much more powerful than Super Saiyan Blue w/ Kaioken x 20.

[Bullza]

I don't see why she wouldn't be. She easily lifted Tupper in his weighted form when base Goku couldn't in the anime and needed Super Saiyan to lift him in the manga. Then there's the whole Ribrianne thing.

Well would that suggest a retcon if Base Goku's strength then?

Android 18 probably isn't as strong as Good Buu if Piccolo isn't.

[PFM18]

Does that mean Android 18 is above Base Goku?

I don't see why she wouldn't be. She easily lifted Tupper in his weighted form when base Goku couldn't in the anime and needed Super Saiyan to lift him in the manga. Then there's the whole Ribrianne thing.

Wait did 18 lift Tupper in the anime? I am not very well versed on the manga but I didn't recall seeing that in the anime but I could be forgetting.

[Marlowe89]

Well would that suggest a retcon if Base Goku's strength then?

I think so. Throughout this thread I've noted several other things within the tournament (and even other arcs) that point to a retcon too; to be honest, I can't even keep track of all the indicators at this point. I definitely don't see him as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I suppose his exact strength is technically still up to interpretation, but we know for sure by now that neither his base power nor his ordinary yellow Super Saiyan forms come close to Super Saiyan God's power in BoG.

[TheDipDap1234]

Does that mean Android 18 is above Base Goku?

I don't see why she wouldn't be. She easily lifted Tupper in his weighted form when base Goku couldn't in the anime and needed Super Saiyan to lift him in the manga. Then there's the whole Ribrianne thing.

Wait did 18 lift Tupper in the anime? I am not very well versed on the manga but I didn't recall seeing that in the anime but I could be forgetting.

Episode 101. She did it with one hand quite easily.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Well would that suggest a retcon if Base Goku's strength then?

I think so. Throughout this thread I've noted several other things within the tournament (and even other arcs) that point to a retcon too; to be honest, I can't even keep track of all the indicators at this point. I definitely don't see him as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I suppose his exact strength is technically still up to interpretation, but we know for sure by now that neither his base power nor his ordinary yellow Super Saiyan forms come close to Super Saiyan God's power in BoG.

At the end of the day, the latter statement is the only sure-fire thing we really have to go on.

There's always stuff to contest most other interpretations, but the fact that SSG is back does at least help clarify things, even if I would've preferred it to not return and keep the anime consistent with itself instead of taking ideas from Toyotaro.

[PFM18]

I don't see why she wouldn't be. She easily lifted Tupper in his weighted form when base Goku couldn't in the anime and needed Super Saiyan to lift him in the manga. Then there's the whole Ribrianne thing.

Wait did 18 lift Tupper in the anime? I am not very well versed on the manga but I didn't recall seeing that in the anime but I could be forgetting.

Episode 101. She did it with one hand quite easily.

Yeah I guess she did, I just rewatched it. I think it is oversimplifying things thought o conclude that because the guy jumped on Goku's back and he couldn't get him off and then 18 picked him up then that makes 18 stronger than Base Goku. I could see it based on her performance against Ribrianne but this isn't a very good example.

Well would that suggest a retcon if Base Goku's strength then?

I think so. Throughout this thread I've noted several other things within the tournament (and even other arcs) that point to a retcon too; to be honest, I can't even keep track of all the indicators at this point. I definitely don't see him as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

I suppose his exact strength is technically still up to interpretation, but we know for sure by now that neither his base power nor his ordinary yellow Super Saiyan forms come close to Super Saiyan God's power in BoG.

I mean he clearly was MUCH stronger than SSJ3 Gotenks. What examples do you see within the ToP that indicate a retcon exactly?

[Bullza]

Would there be any In Universe explanation to explain Goku going from above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks to below that?

I can't remember all the little details now but I'd have still said Base Goku was above the Fat Buu.

Even Future Trunks was implied to be above Super Saiyan Kid Trunks who was stronger than Android 18 so I don't know.

[PFM18]

Would there be any In Universe explanation to explain Goku going from above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks to below that?

I can't remember all the little details now but I'd have still said Base Goku was above the Fat Buu.

Even Future Trunks was implied to be above Super Saiyan Kid Trunks who was stronger than Android 18 so I don't know.

There isn't an In-Universe explanation but there doesn't have to be. The story has established he is that strong and there isn't strong evidence that it has been retconned. Persoanlly, I believe Base Goku is around SSJ3 Vegetto from the Buu arc based on what we have seen with him infusing the SSG power in his SSJ form and then being shown to be stronger than or atleast on par with: FF Freeza, SSJ3 Gotenks, Suppressed Beerus, and a powered up slim Buu.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo can't be weaker than drugged Brasil. He was confirmed to be stronger than Bergamo in the manga.

[Rally 07]

I suppose his exact strength is technically still up to interpretation, but we know for sure by now that neither his base power nor his ordinary yellow Super Saiyan forms come close to Super Saiyan God's power in BoG.

Gokou absorbed the power of the initial Super Saiyan God into his Base form and surpassed it. His Base form is astronomically more powerful than Super Saiyan God from the Battle of Gods story arc.

[Zamasu55]

Piccolo can't be weaker than drugged Brasil. He was confirmed to be stronger than Bergamo in the manga.

Where Drugged Basil doesn't even exist, like any of the wolves' techniques.

[Bullza]

Well who was stronger beaten the Drugged Basil and Bergamo without absorbing any power?

Basil didn't seem too far off Buu. I'd have thought he'd be closer to him than Piccolo would have been.

[Marlowe89]

Gokou absorbed the power of the initial Super Saiyan God into his Base form and surpassed it. His Base form is astronomically more powerful than Super Saiyan God from the Battle of Gods story arc.

True in RoF, but definitely not the case anymore according to the US arc. Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form (or Super Saiyan God in the manga) caused the deities to react in surprise that he could reach "the level of the gods", a term that was previously used by Beerus to describe Super Saiyan God's strength in BoG. As Goku already demonstrated the power of his yellow Super Saiyan forms during the exhibition, this would effectively confirm the idea of either a retcon or Goku losing that power somewhere in continuity.

Additionally, we have all the indicators provided in the tournament itself and even before. 18 easily lifting Tupper's concentrated weight when base Goku failed to, U9's fighters individually giving the base Saiyans a relatively hard time even though they're supposed to be weaker than Basil who (in turn) is massively weaker than Good Buu, Ganos' transformed state getting defeated by Roshi even when he didn't fare too badly against base Goku in a weaker form, Super Saiyan Gohan fighting evenly with Super Saiyan Goku before regaining his true strength, the list really goes on.

Along with Super Saiyan God's return, it's quite plausible that the intention was to make the anime's power scale more consistent with the manga's at some point.

[Kenneth La Torre]

- UI Omen Goku isn't stronger than FP Jiren, we clearly see that in episode 129.

He kinda seemed like he was right at the end when he was pushing through Jiren's attacks.

Not really. Especially since jiren after that powered up even more to the point where the supreme kai of the 11th universe said that they feel like he and the others will be crushed by jirens heat. That also says that jiren wasnt fighting at full power until he used the overheating magnetron at the end.

[Rally 07]

True in RoF, but definitely not the case anymore according to the US arc. Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form (or Super Saiyan God in the manga) caused the deities to react in surprise that he could reach "the level of the gods", a term that was previously used by Beerus to describe Super Saiyan God's strength in BoG. As Goku already demonstrated the power of his yellow Super Saiyan forms during the exhibition, this would effectively confirm the idea of either a retcon or Goku losing that power somewhere in continuity.

There has been no retcon nor is there any sufficient evidence to claim Gokou never absorbed the power of the initial Super Saiyan God. And the term "the level of the gods" was indeed used then but it's also used to describe Ultra Instinct. As the gods, more specifically the Hakaishins, it is a skill they have not fully attained for eons whereas this Saiyan achieved it in about 20 minutes or so. Not to mention, the term was used to describe Gokou's new power as he gained an astronomically crazy increase in power. And the gods were surprised by his power more so that a mortal could achieve God Ki and Godly power. And Gokou has not lost power, if anything, he's getting stronger, much stronger. It seems you've forgotten that Gokou has gotten astronomically stronger from the Battle of Gods and Fukkatsu no F story arcs and currently. Not to mention how powerful he's gotten in the Tournament of Power via. breaking his limits fighting Jiren and Kefura and whatnot.

Along with Super Saiyan God's return, it's quite plausible that the intention was to make the anime's power scale more consistent with the manga's at some point.

The anime and manga are two different continuities that don't share many things with each other. Especially scaling. However the return of the Super Saiyan God transformation meant Gokou could stack the God transformation like any other Super Saiyan transformation.

[Rally 07]

Even Future Trunks was implied to be above Super Saiyan Kid Trunks who was stronger than Android 18 so I don't know.

Where is the implication for this? Can you provide any statements from some Super episodes in that story arc?

[Rally 07]

I definitely don't see him as being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks.

What? Yet Base form Gokou was able to fight on par with Base form Copy Vegeta who absolutely tanked a hit from Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks and one shotted him. Right. Base form Gokou is below Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks...

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Even Future Trunks was implied to be above Super Saiyan Kid Trunks who was stronger than Android 18 so I don't know.

Where is the implication for this? Can you provide any statements from some Super episodes in that story arc?

During the Future Trunks Arc, when Future Trunks was sitting around feeling understandably down on himself, Kid Trunks walks up to him, turns Super Saiyan, and punches him; he tells him to snap out of it and fight him.

When we return to the two of them later in the episode, Kid Trunks is still a Super Saiyan, quite scuffed up and panting heavily, but Future Trunks is perfectly fine and still in base form; this implies that SS Kid Trunks fought with base Future Trunks and wasn't doing too well, but he still kept going.

[Marlowe89]

And the term "the level of the gods" was indeed used then but it's also used to describe Ultra Instinct.

That was "state of the gods" describing Ultra Instinct, and it's obviously true that Ultra Instinct would be within the level of the gods given that it's far stronger than Super Saiyan God/Blue. Moreover, Whis said that Ultra Instinct becomes stronger the deeper one delves into the realm of the gods, so it clearly encompasses a fairly enormous range of power.

This doesn't really change my point though. The minimum threshold for the level of the gods was explicitly established in BoG, and it's not suddenly going to change in a later arc. The simple fact of the matter is that Goku didn't reach this threshold until transforming into Super Saiyan Blue during the exhibition match.

The anime and manga are two different continuities that don't share many things with each other. Especially scaling.

Unlikely. Yoshitaka Toshio suggested that the writing staff attempts to keep the show's scaling consistent with Toriyama's original drafts, and Toyotaro obviously does the same thing. There are some differences - particularly with medium-exclusive transformations - but for the most part it's not unreasonable to conclude they're generally the same given the current information available.