RandomGuy96 wrote: Actually, the whole point of BoG was that SSG was close to Beerus's level and could give him the fun fight he always wanted. It's the plot of the movie. And originally it seemed to be true.
That's entirely out the door at this point, in all three continuities.
Yes, and the entire point of BoG surrounding Beerus was that he was on an entirely different level to anything shown prior. SSJG by extension fits this, and the whole dialogue supports it, and the feats of forcing Beerus to keep on powering up. There’s no way in hell that Vegetto would do anything when Goku ruled him out against a Beerus that was so heavily suppressed it wasn’t even funny. SSJG with all the comments and feats against Beerus ends up meaning that the whole point surrounding SSJG was that it was above anything shown prior. Even if the stuff ruling out fusion wasn’t there, that would still be the point of SSJG due to the prophetic dream, and the fact that SSJG was pushing Beerus to the limits of his “true power”.
Again Goku ruled fusion out before even realising that Beerus was at a level beyond what he was expecting. The level I’m talking about is what was shown in BoG, ofcourse that changes drastically later, when then it becomes scary how weak BoG arc Vegetto would be in comparison.
It's confirmed in the manga (via base Vegetto wounding Zamasu), movie (via SS Gogeta outperforming SSB Goku), and anime (via base Kefla crushing SSG Goku despite Caulifla and Kale being weaker than him and Vegeta individually) to not be above fusion by any means. In fact it's far below. The entire notion of it being above fusion is right out the door (which may be why that comment wasn't in the manga) along with the notion of it being a fun fight to Beerus.
Firstly, the manga arc was far too short to draw any conclusions. It was a briefing arc, simple as that. Secondly, we don’t even know how fusion works, when looking at BoG we know that Vegetto wasn’t enough, later in the Zamasu arc in his base he was super strong, but instead of retconning the main point of SSJG in BoG, why not just looks at fusion and believe it works differently post god forms. BoG is too big for me to retcon without confirmation from Toriyama that they are now weaker than things shown in the Buu arc. I mean the whole idea of that is insanely unDB. The powerscaling sucks in Super, we know that, so SSJG isn’t always gonna be represented how it should truly be. Also Kefla in the anime was made up of fighters who were strong as shit, Kale was a little close to an injured SSJG, and Caulifla was a ways off. Even so, this Kale was stronger than her Berserker form at this stage, so that says a lot as to why Kefla was so strong. It all depends how you view fusion.
Instead of retconning shit let’s understand that we don’t know how fusion works.
Gotenks now is s weakling in comparison, and in the anime base Goku and Vegeta can take his strongest form. In the original series Kibitoshin was fucking pathetic, Merged Zamasu was only intended to be stronger than a SSJB, but weaker than two, and Vegetto pre SSJG was too weak to fight against Beerus, but post SSJG in base he’s likely stronger than SSJB. Again, we don’t know fuck all about how fusion works, all we can try and do is headcanon crap, but I for one will utilise everything we have to make something reasonable as the one thing that becomes apparent is that we don’t have a clue on how fusion works.
Also if you don’t buy the anime’s crazy ass powerscaling I take it you don’t have Caulifla as all that strong? So if the fusion for you only uses the base forms, when making up the fusion base form wouldn’t that mean that Kefla would probably end up a bit weaker than Gotenks? I mean Kale in base was insanely weak, so if it just uses the base forms, to make up the base fusion, she would be absurdly pathetic. We know from Gogeta in Broly that the fusion multipliers aren’t really any different from the Potara so she has no argument for being above Gotenks if that’s the case.
Whether Vados was right or not (obviously she wasn't, Jiren is there) doesn't really matter. What matters is her thought process; if Kefla was a total weakling who was below both Kale's regular strength (which could make Goku go CSSB at least) and the SSG Goku who she had seen earlier, she never would have even suggested that Kefla could be the strongest one there. That she even entertained the idea should be proof enough that she's above SSG Goku, as well as a tired Golden Freeza and a semi-serious Vegeta and Toppo.
Again, maybe Vados expected her to have more power in reserve, but Krillins statement next chapter proved that Gohan was a ways off Goku. That’s all we need, authorial intent with a straight up comparison, and not hype like the end of the chapter prior.
Kefla just wasn’t as strong as she should’ve been. Maybe Vados was anticipating a fusion at full power, and then her statement holds weight, but luckily her statement wasn’t said with uncertainty, which works fine if you believe that she was expecting Kefla to have more power in reserve, but she was weakened. Again, we know that Gohan is a ways off Goku from statements, so that extends to Kefla.
I would actually see that as further evidence that SSG isn't that powerful. And weaker characters can restrain stronger ones, especially if they catch them by surprise (e.g. 16 grabbing Cell or Goku grabbing Raditz- even a weakened Raditz was a god compared to a half-dead Goku), as long as the gap isn't too big. Dyspo isn't CSSB level in the manga, but if 17 is on the level of the gods, then Dyspo isn't too far away, or else he would've gotten knocked out way earlier.
He wasn’t a god in comparison. He was definitely stronger, but not at that kind of level.
The whole hold seemed to be to do with how weakened Raditz was, he could have flew with Goku on him, but he didn’t. Raditz notes that Gohan injury to him as the reason why he’s stuck. If the full nelson was truly that impressive Goku could’ve done that at the start instead of grabbing Raditz tail. Also Raditz didn’t kill Gohan when he hit him, so he must’ve been severely weakened.
On to the next point... Dyspo was a joke, 17 just toyed with him it seems. 17 with his infinite power was dragging a fight out with a Dyspo that couldn’t even jump back to the arena when he went to Toppo.
I don't think Golden Freeza is as strong as CSSB Goku. Or, if he is, he's only that strong in bursts.
He was strong enough to lose to Goku, but give him a hell of a beating in the process just prior to the ToP
Honestly, for Toei productions, I think the most logical path to take is to ignore any Toei-exclusive arcs and, within the context of the main arc, pay attention only to small clashes with decisive results that exist for the sake of establishing power. Like SS3 Goku vs SS2 Trunks, or SS2 Goku vs Zamasu. You really can't derive anything from non-decisive battles, as anyone can hold their own against anyone else in Toeiland and make them look like they're trying. The most infamous incident would be Goku going SSB and gritting his teeth fighting Krillin, but it's been a recurring issue all the way back to the original Dragon Ball anime. My favorite incident in Z has to be base Goku holding his own against Fake Ultimate Gohan, and then commenting that he's as strong as the real one.
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I understand all of that, but I can’t rule out so much of the anime. Because in the Zamasu fight, Goku compares him to Beerus. It’s garbage, but Toei seem to be riding with the super powered bases post SSJG.
We honestly need to know what Toriyama thinks on these matters, it’s basically as simple as that. But the shit thing is that we may never know.
The fandom is full of uncertainty, and we could do with an explanation surrounding these issues.