Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:26 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote: Usually it means overall power. Possibly around Goku's Blue level, like the anime demonstrated.
Which was backed by Toriyama concerning 17's enormous "potential."
Well we still saw him in the recruitment period being SSJ3 level and everybody apparently praised the manga for it, and now we just kind of inconspicuously find out that he actually isn't SSJ3 level, but rather CSSB level because reasons.
The manga had 17 push SSJ3 back. A limit of power was never given to him in the manga until now.
We were still lead to believe he was SSJ3 level. If he was meant to be CSSB level, they should have showed that at the time. He might as well have not been CSSB level, because we never see that strength on display at any point, it meant absolutely nothing.

Now I just find it hilarious that at the time I heard all these people like "17 shouldn't have been SSB level, good thing the manga corrected that and only made him SSJ3 level" and now here we are and it turns out they were wrong to be praising the manga for that.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:35 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Well we still saw him in the recruitment period being SSJ3 level and everybody apparently praised the manga for it, and now we just kind of inconspicuously find out that he actually isn't SSJ3 level, but rather CSSB level because reasons.
The manga had 17 push SSJ3 back. A limit of power was never given to him in the manga until now.
We were still lead to believe he was SSJ3 level. If he was meant to be CSSB level, they should have showed that at the time. He might as well have not been CSSB level, because we never see that strength on display at any point, it meant absolutely nothing.

Now I just find it hilarious that at the time I heard all these people like "17 shouldn't have been SSB level, good thing the manga corrected that and only made him SSJ3 level" and now here we are and it turns out they were wrong to be praising the manga for that.
Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:50 pm

Miracles wrote:Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.
17 still looked like the one taking the battle more seriously and Goku clearly wasn't, and Goku made no comments about needing to transform further if they kept fighting, so the power levels are just moot by that fight, problem is just saying that 17 is around Blue levels without having anything to show off, imagine if in saiyan saga the characters talk about Gohan's immense potential but without the scene of him seriously hurting Raditz? It just feels cheap, and if nothing comes out of that, then it'll be just some pointless extra info.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 3:52 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote: The manga had 17 push SSJ3 back. A limit of power was never given to him in the manga until now.
We were still lead to believe he was SSJ3 level. If he was meant to be CSSB level, they should have showed that at the time. He might as well have not been CSSB level, because we never see that strength on display at any point, it meant absolutely nothing.

Now I just find it hilarious that at the time I heard all these people like "17 shouldn't have been SSB level, good thing the manga corrected that and only made him SSJ3 level" and now here we are and it turns out they were wrong to be praising the manga for that.
Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.
Again, if he was meant to be CSSB from the start, it is simply bad writing to not just show us that. Why show him fighting but not use that scene to show what he is capable of? As viewers we need that exposition. It's just stupid.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 19, 2018 5:18 pm

Lukmendes wrote:
Miracles wrote:Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.
17 still looked like the one taking the battle more seriously and Goku clearly wasn't, and Goku made no comments about needing to transform further if they kept fighting, so the power levels are just moot by that fight, problem is just saying that 17 is around Blue levels without having anything to show off, imagine if in saiyan saga the characters talk about Gohan's immense potential but without the scene of him seriously hurting Raditz? It just feels cheap, and if nothing comes out of that, then it'll be just some pointless extra info.
There was no comment about 17 using full power either and he was pushing SSJ3 Goku back with Goku commenting that he is strong while being worried about the forest.
17's full power was never stated and said to be shown at all. We, the DB fandom get ourselves in trouble when we try to play author and fill in the blank.
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
We were still lead to believe he was SSJ3 level. If he was meant to be CSSB level, they should have showed that at the time. He might as well have not been CSSB level, because we never see that strength on display at any point, it meant absolutely nothing.

Now I just find it hilarious that at the time I heard all these people like "17 shouldn't have been SSB level, good thing the manga corrected that and only made him SSJ3 level" and now here we are and it turns out they were wrong to be praising the manga for that.
Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.
Again, if he was meant to be CSSB from the start, it is simply bad writing to not just show us that. Why show him fighting but not use that scene to show what he is capable of? As viewers we need that exposition. It's just stupid.
You are right. Super in general does a bad job of showcasing power scaling. No objections about that fact.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:01 pm

Miracles wrote:You are right. Super in general does a bad job of showcasing power scaling. No objections about that fact.
1. That's not a fact.
2. This isn't a "Super in general" problem, this is a Toyotaro problem.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 19, 2018 6:39 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:You are right. Super in general does a bad job of showcasing power scaling. No objections about that fact.
1. That's not a fact.
2. This isn't a "Super in general" problem, this is a Toyotaro problem.
First, let me tell you since you hopped on your "anime is better than the manga" war horse. I like BOTH anime and manga but prefer anime due to visuals. So please don't start it.

However, I see you let your bias creep in by saying bad writing with demonstrating power is a manga only problem. We all know that isn't true.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lukmendes » Mon Nov 19, 2018 8:24 pm

Miracles wrote:There was no comment about 17 using full power either and he was pushing SSJ3 Goku back with Goku commenting that he is strong while being worried about the forest.
17's full power was never stated and said to be shown at all. We, the DB fandom get ourselves in trouble when we try to play author and fill in the blank.
Yes, which is why I said his power level was moot, but the lack of comments Goku made about his power didn't make it look like he was even close to SSG or Blue levels, but again, all moot.
jjgp1112 wrote: Sat Mar 12, 2022 12:08 am My man, all Goku had to do was go SSJ3 and shock Vegeta so much the M on his head would have turned into an L and Buu would have never happened.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:00 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote: The manga does show that SSJG was extraordinary in the fight with Toppo. The multiplier from SSJ-3 was called useless by Goku, and a waste of time by Toppo, but even after that he was still confident that he would basically whollop Toppo when he became God, and warns him by stating “it’s an entirely different level, so don’t regret it”
The transformations being totally “useless” genuinely surprised Goku, but even though he called the prior transformations power useless he still knew that SSJG was worthy of a warning, in fact it was so powerful, that it jumped past the “useless”, and “waste of time” transformations by an insane margin, that the goalpost that is Toppo, that couldn’t be closed in on in the slightest between those forms was then immediately surpassed, by such a margin that Toppo has to reveal his true power just to stay even.
As I noted, this is not really inconsistent with it being Ultimate Gohan level. It being a monster above a SS3 fusion is what's been clearly retconned. With that done away with, I see no real reason to ignore the other indications that it's not a million-fold multiplier or whatever.
Also, the matter of Gohans strength in the manga is awkward. Kefla was no where near FP as she was made up of an incapacitated Kale, and a weakened Caulifla, and as we saw in the Zamasu arc the fusion needs to eat a Senzu to recover their power. Also, we know that Gohan was training prior to this in the manga, so his power would’ve stayed up. In the fight with Kefla Piccolo states that Gohan regained his “battle sense in the brief time” which would make sense, as Gohan training solo in the gravity chamber after not training for so long prior would probably lead to him regaining his power at the least because of how gifted he is, as is shown in the Kefla fight. Losing his skill in battle is probably unavoidable, after not training at all for a while, and then picking up again without any simulated combat, so Piccolos statement doesn’t really contradict anything.
Gohan also managed to grow stronger than ever during the fight with Kefla, but that doesn’t mean he only regained his Buu arc/BoG arc level of power prior to the tourney with all of his Gravity training. It’s still awkward to know where to place him really.
Piccolo stated in the anime that he regained the power he used against Buu, very specifically. In the manga, he wasn't quite that specific, but he did say "regaining his sense of battle was all he could do in his brief period of training", which basically means the same thing. He regained what he lost, he didn't exceed it. At least, not walking into the tournament.

As for Kefla's strength, bare minimum she's relevant to the GoD-tiers given Vados's statement that she may win the tournament, keeping in mind that she's seen a semi-serious bout between Vegeta and Toppo and a full-power SSG Goku (even giving some wiggle room by assuming she's taken into consideration the fighters' degrading stamina). Plus, Kefla was beating up Dyspo, who had an extended off-screen fight with #17 without instantly losing, and 17 is apparently god-tier as of the newest chapter.* I could buy her being weaker than Goku, Vegeta, or Toppo, but she should be in the same stratosphere.

*Dyspo is also able to hold his own against Hit and overwhelm Golden Freeza in the anime. That in and of itself doesn't prove anything, but it may indicate that he was always meant to be relevant to the GoD-tier in Toriyama's outline, hence why in both versions he makes it to the last three and is grouped together with Toppo.
So we truly don’t know how Gohan compares to Goku, accept knowing that he’s weaker than Goku as stated by Krillin, in fact even with his “innate talent” of getting stronger than ever in that brief fight with Kefla, Krillin still wonders if he could become stronger than Goku if he quit his day job and focused on just training, so there’s still definitely a big enough gap between the two. Also, Krillin would technically know how Gohan compares to Goku, as even though he can’t sense god ki, Krillin knows that Goku is roughly in line with Freeza, and that’s somebody he can sense when they reach their true power, so because of that he actually knows how powerful the God forms are, more or less.
Freeza is basically fodder compared to Goku at this point, especially since Goku has a pseudo Kaio-Ken for which he seemingly has no counter (and Freeza's golden form still drains energy really fast, hence why he spends several dozen pages just resting after popping it on to toy with Caulifla and get beaten up by Kale).
The anime of the other hand is a bit easier. Goku is super strong in base. We’ve seen multiple times in that how strong he is, there’s issues, sure, and I’m not a fan of how the power scaling is handled one bit, but we can’t really ignore it as it’s shown far too often. Everybody is just crazy in the anime.
They really aren't, people are just forgetting how Toei always does things. Anyone can fight anyone and look like they're trying. We saw this all the time back in Z, in both the movies and the main series.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:41 pm

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:You are right. Super in general does a bad job of showcasing power scaling. No objections about that fact.
1. That's not a fact.
2. This isn't a "Super in general" problem, this is a Toyotaro problem.
First, let me tell you since you hopped on your "anime is better than the manga" war horse. I like BOTH anime and manga but prefer anime due to visuals. So please don't start it.

However, I see you let your bias creep in by saying bad writing with demonstrating power is a manga only problem. We all know that isn't true.
I'm not trying to turn this into an "anime is better than the manga" conversation, not in the slightest. I was just saying that in this particular scene, or in this particular character's case, I don't think the manga did a very good job of illustrating where he stands. The manga did a poor job portraying 17's power, that is all I'm saying, it wasn't even my intention to bring up the anime at all.

I didn't say that the bad writing with demonstrating power was a manga only problem. You said that this was a problem with Super, but I was saying this particular character's portrayal is only an issue in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Mon Nov 19, 2018 9:49 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
1. That's not a fact.
2. This isn't a "Super in general" problem, this is a Toyotaro problem.
First, let me tell you since you hopped on your "anime is better than the manga" war horse. I like BOTH anime and manga but prefer anime due to visuals. So please don't start it.

However, I see you let your bias creep in by saying bad writing with demonstrating power is a manga only problem. We all know that isn't true.
I'm not trying to turn this into an "anime is better than the manga" conversation, not in the slightest. I was just saying that in this particular scene, or in this particular character's case, I don't think the manga did a very good job of illustrating where he stands. The manga did a poor job portraying 17's power, that is all I'm saying, it wasn't even my intention to bring up the anime at all.

I didn't say that the bad writing with demonstrating power was a manga only problem. You said that this was a problem with Super, but I was saying this particular character's portrayal is only an issue in the manga.
Yes. That is true. 17's power was badly demonstrated in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Tue Nov 20, 2018 4:35 am

RandomGuy96 wrote:
Sora Saiyan wrote: The manga does show that SSJG was extraordinary in the fight with Toppo. The multiplier from SSJ-3 was called useless by Goku, and a waste of time by Toppo, but even after that he was still confident that he would basically whollop Toppo when he became God, and warns him by stating “it’s an entirely different level, so don’t regret it”
The transformations being totally “useless” genuinely surprised Goku, but even though he called the prior transformations power useless he still knew that SSJG was worthy of a warning, in fact it was so powerful, that it jumped past the “useless”, and “waste of time” transformations by an insane margin, that the goalpost that is Toppo, that couldn’t be closed in on in the slightest between those forms was then immediately surpassed, by such a margin that Toppo has to reveal his true power just to stay even.
As I noted, this is not really inconsistent with it being Ultimate Gohan level. It being a monster above a SS3 fusion is what's been clearly retconned. With that done away with, I see no real reason to ignore the other indications that it's not a million-fold multiplier or whatever.
It’s very difficult to say, but I can’t believe that the entirety of BoG was just tossed aside. I mean the whole point of BoG, when surrounding SSJG, was to show that it was on an entirely different level to anything that existed prior. The fusion comment cements that... now whether it was above SSJ3 Vegetto could be up for debate, but with Goku’s reaction to SSJG, and Beerus being heavily, heavily suppressed at the time when the fusion comment was made it would be very hard to see Vegetto in any form being stronger than Goku and Vegeta pre SSJG. Ofcourse this changes drastically once the God forms are attained, but if you’re looking at the anime it doesn’t seem that the Vegetto fusion is all that.
Piccolo stated in the anime that he regained the power he used against Buu, very specifically. In the manga, he wasn't quite that specific, but he did say "regaining his sense of battle was all he could do in his brief period of training", which basically means the same thing. He regained what he lost, he didn't exceed it. At least, not walking into the tournament.

As for Kefla's strength, bare minimum she's relevant to the GoD-tiers given Vados's statement that she may win the tournament, keeping in mind that she's seen a semi-serious bout between Vegeta and Toppo and a full-power SSG Goku (even giving some wiggle room by assuming she's taken into consideration the fighters' degrading stamina). Plus, Kefla was beating up Dyspo, who had an extended off-screen fight with #17 without instantly losing, and 17 is apparently god-tier as of the newest chapter.* I could buy her being weaker than Goku, Vegeta, or Toppo, but she should be in the same stratosphere.

*Dyspo is also able to hold his own against Hit and overwhelm Golden Freeza in the anime. That in and of itself doesn't prove anything, but it may indicate that he was always meant to be relevant to the GoD-tier in Toriyama's outline, hence why in both versions he makes it to the last three and is grouped together with Toppo.
Vados statement was shown to be well off, and also it wasn’t said in a definitive way whatsoever. Krillins on the other hand was a direct statement, and confirmed that Gohan was still a ways off when he mentioned that Gohan would basically have to train a lot to truly surpass Goku. Krillins statement clearly showed the authors intent. It’s the same as the 17 thing this chapter. Even though the 17 things make no sense, and in universe Goku can’t even sense 17, so it could easily be argued to be otherwise with his showings, but it’s the authors intent, so 17 is very likely SSJG+ at the minimum.

Also, Dyspo was a joke in the manga, he was swatted aside by SSJB Vegeta like a fly and just disappeared after, and SSJ Caulifla could hold him back. As we know from the original series, Goku could only full nelson Raditz because he was weakened by Gohan, so really Dyspo isn’t all that powerful.
Freeza is basically fodder compared to Goku at this point, especially since Goku has a pseudo Kaio-Ken for which he seemingly has no counter (and Freeza's golden form still drains energy really fast, hence why he spends several dozen pages just resting after popping it on to toy with Caulifla and get beaten up by Kale).
I was just talking about the regular Blue forms, as the other forms weren’t shown until after that fight.
They really aren't, people are just forgetting how Toei always does things. Anyone can fight anyone and look like they're trying. We saw this all the time back in Z, in both the movies and the main series.
Yeah, I understand that, but it’s attempting to make things make sense in universe.

In reality it’s very awkward to know where to place SSJG, as we don’t know how the series truly works now. How powerful is Goku intended to be in base by Toriyama? In Toriyamas vision it’s likely that SSJ2 and 3 aren’t all that much as Goku basically skips them now. Is Toriyama working with the base forms absorbing some of the god ki?
The Super series in general is crazy inconsistent at times, so we could do with something from just Toriyama to know his intentions. This Broly movie might be the best source, but it’s gonna be hard to tell how strong their base forms are without anybody around weaker who we can compare them to, so it’s actually probably not going to help at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by RandomGuy96 » Tue Nov 20, 2018 9:14 pm

Sora Saiyan wrote: It’s very difficult to say, but I can’t believe that the entirety of BoG was just tossed aside. I mean the whole point of BoG, when surrounding SSJG, was to show that it was on an entirely different level to anything that existed prior.
Actually, the whole point of BoG was that SSG was close to Beerus's level and could give him the fun fight he always wanted. It's the plot of the movie. And originally it seemed to be true.

That's entirely out the door at this point, in all three continuities.
The fusion comment cements that now whether it was above SSJ3 Vegetto could be up for debate, but with Goku’s reaction to SSJG, and Beerus being heavily, heavily suppressed at the time when the fusion comment was made it would be very hard to see Vegetto in any form being stronger than Goku and Vegeta pre SSJG.
It's confirmed in the manga (via base Vegetto wounding Zamasu), movie (via SS Gogeta outperforming SSB Goku), and anime (via base Kefla crushing SSG Goku despite Caulifla and Kale being weaker than him and Vegeta individually) to not be above fusion by any means. In fact it's far below. The entire notion of it being above fusion is right out the door (which may be why that comment wasn't in the manga) along with the notion of it being a fun fight to Beerus.
Vados statement was shown to be well off, and also it wasn’t said in a definitive way whatsoever. Krillins on the other hand was a direct statement, and confirmed that Gohan was still a ways off when he mentioned that Gohan would basically have to train a lot to truly surpass Goku. Krillins statement clearly showed the authors intent. It’s the same as the 17 thing this chapter. Even though the 17 things make no sense, and in universe Goku can’t even sense 17, so it could easily be argued to be otherwise with his showings, but it’s the authors intent, so 17 is very likely SSJG+ at the minimum.
Whether Vados was right or not (obviously she wasn't, Jiren is there) doesn't really matter. What matters is her thought process; if Kefla was a total weakling who was below both Kale's regular strength (which could make Goku go CSSB at least) and the SSG Goku who she had seen earlier, she never would have even suggested that Kefla could be the strongest one there. That she even entertained the idea should be proof enough that she's above SSG Goku, as well as a tired Golden Freeza and a semi-serious Vegeta and Toppo.
Also, Dyspo was a joke in the manga, he was swatted aside by SSJB Vegeta like a fly and just disappeared after, and SSJ Caulifla could hold him back. As we know from the original series, Goku could only full nelson Raditz because he was weakened by Gohan, so really Dyspo isn’t all that powerful.
I would actually see that as further evidence that SSG isn't that powerful. And weaker characters can restrain stronger ones, especially if they catch them by surprise (e.g. 16 grabbing Cell or Goku grabbing Raditz- even a weakened Raditz was a god compared to a half-dead Goku), as long as the gap isn't too big. Dyspo isn't CSSB level in the manga, but if 17 is on the level of the gods, then Dyspo isn't too far away, or else he would've gotten knocked out way earlier.

Of course the 17 statement depends on context that we don't have yet; bare minimum we know that 17's maximum output doesn't match Goku's.
I was just talking about the regular Blue forms, as the other forms weren’t shown until after that fight.
I don't think Golden Freeza is as strong as CSSB Goku. Or, if he is, he's only that strong in bursts.
Yeah, I understand that, but it’s attempting to make things make sense in universe.
Honestly, for Toei productions, I think the most logical path to take is to ignore any Toei-exclusive arcs and, within the context of the main arc, pay attention only to small clashes with decisive results that exist for the sake of establishing power. Like SS3 Goku vs SS2 Trunks, or SS2 Goku vs Zamasu. You really can't derive anything from non-decisive battles, as anyone can hold their own against anyone else in Toeiland and make them look like they're trying. The most infamous incident would be Goku going SSB and gritting his teeth fighting Krillin, but it's been a recurring issue all the way back to the original Dragon Ball anime. My favorite incident in Z has to be base Goku holding his own against Fake Ultimate Gohan, and then commenting that he's as strong as the real one.
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RandomGuy96 wrote:
dbgtFO wrote: Please elaborate as I do not know what you mean by "pushing Vegeta's destruction"
He's probably referring to the Bardock special. Zarbon was the one who first recommended destroying Planet Vegeta because the saiyans were rapidly growing in strength.
It was actually Beerus disguised as Zarbon #StayWoke
Herms wrote:The fact that the ridiculous power inflation is presented so earnestly makes me just roll my eyes and snicker. Like with Freeza, where he starts off over 10 times stronger than all his henchmen except Ginyu (because...well, just because), then we find out he can transform and get even more powerful, and then he reveals he can transform two more times, before finally coming out with the fact that he hasn't even been using anywhere near 50% of his power. Oh, and he can survive in the vacuum of space. All this stuff is just presented as the way Freeza is, without even an attempt at rationalizing it, yet the tone dictates we're supposed to take all this silly grasping at straws as thrilling danger. So I guess I don't really take the power inflation in the Boo arc seriously, but I don't take the power inflation in earlier arcs seriously either, so there's no net loss of seriousness. I think a silly story presented as serious is harder to accept than a silly story presented as silly.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:05 am

RandomGuy96 wrote: Actually, the whole point of BoG was that SSG was close to Beerus's level and could give him the fun fight he always wanted. It's the plot of the movie. And originally it seemed to be true.

That's entirely out the door at this point, in all three continuities.
Yes, and the entire point of BoG surrounding Beerus was that he was on an entirely different level to anything shown prior. SSJG by extension fits this, and the whole dialogue supports it, and the feats of forcing Beerus to keep on powering up. There’s no way in hell that Vegetto would do anything when Goku ruled him out against a Beerus that was so heavily suppressed it wasn’t even funny. SSJG with all the comments and feats against Beerus ends up meaning that the whole point surrounding SSJG was that it was above anything shown prior. Even if the stuff ruling out fusion wasn’t there, that would still be the point of SSJG due to the prophetic dream, and the fact that SSJG was pushing Beerus to the limits of his “true power”.
Again Goku ruled fusion out before even realising that Beerus was at a level beyond what he was expecting. The level I’m talking about is what was shown in BoG, ofcourse that changes drastically later, when then it becomes scary how weak BoG arc Vegetto would be in comparison.
It's confirmed in the manga (via base Vegetto wounding Zamasu), movie (via SS Gogeta outperforming SSB Goku), and anime (via base Kefla crushing SSG Goku despite Caulifla and Kale being weaker than him and Vegeta individually) to not be above fusion by any means. In fact it's far below. The entire notion of it being above fusion is right out the door (which may be why that comment wasn't in the manga) along with the notion of it being a fun fight to Beerus.
Firstly, the manga arc was far too short to draw any conclusions. It was a briefing arc, simple as that. Secondly, we don’t even know how fusion works, when looking at BoG we know that Vegetto wasn’t enough, later in the Zamasu arc in his base he was super strong, but instead of retconning the main point of SSJG in BoG, why not just looks at fusion and believe it works differently post god forms. BoG is too big for me to retcon without confirmation from Toriyama that they are now weaker than things shown in the Buu arc. I mean the whole idea of that is insanely unDB. The powerscaling sucks in Super, we know that, so SSJG isn’t always gonna be represented how it should truly be. Also Kefla in the anime was made up of fighters who were strong as shit, Kale was a little close to an injured SSJG, and Caulifla was a ways off. Even so, this Kale was stronger than her Berserker form at this stage, so that says a lot as to why Kefla was so strong. It all depends how you view fusion.
Instead of retconning shit let’s understand that we don’t know how fusion works.
Gotenks now is s weakling in comparison, and in the anime base Goku and Vegeta can take his strongest form. In the original series Kibitoshin was fucking pathetic, Merged Zamasu was only intended to be stronger than a SSJB, but weaker than two, and Vegetto pre SSJG was too weak to fight against Beerus, but post SSJG in base he’s likely stronger than SSJB. Again, we don’t know fuck all about how fusion works, all we can try and do is headcanon crap, but I for one will utilise everything we have to make something reasonable as the one thing that becomes apparent is that we don’t have a clue on how fusion works.

Also if you don’t buy the anime’s crazy ass powerscaling I take it you don’t have Caulifla as all that strong? So if the fusion for you only uses the base forms, when making up the fusion base form wouldn’t that mean that Kefla would probably end up a bit weaker than Gotenks? I mean Kale in base was insanely weak, so if it just uses the base forms, to make up the base fusion, she would be absurdly pathetic. We know from Gogeta in Broly that the fusion multipliers aren’t really any different from the Potara so she has no argument for being above Gotenks if that’s the case.
Whether Vados was right or not (obviously she wasn't, Jiren is there) doesn't really matter. What matters is her thought process; if Kefla was a total weakling who was below both Kale's regular strength (which could make Goku go CSSB at least) and the SSG Goku who she had seen earlier, she never would have even suggested that Kefla could be the strongest one there. That she even entertained the idea should be proof enough that she's above SSG Goku, as well as a tired Golden Freeza and a semi-serious Vegeta and Toppo.
Again, maybe Vados expected her to have more power in reserve, but Krillins statement next chapter proved that Gohan was a ways off Goku. That’s all we need, authorial intent with a straight up comparison, and not hype like the end of the chapter prior.
Kefla just wasn’t as strong as she should’ve been. Maybe Vados was anticipating a fusion at full power, and then her statement holds weight, but luckily her statement wasn’t said with uncertainty, which works fine if you believe that she was expecting Kefla to have more power in reserve, but she was weakened. Again, we know that Gohan is a ways off Goku from statements, so that extends to Kefla.
I would actually see that as further evidence that SSG isn't that powerful. And weaker characters can restrain stronger ones, especially if they catch them by surprise (e.g. 16 grabbing Cell or Goku grabbing Raditz- even a weakened Raditz was a god compared to a half-dead Goku), as long as the gap isn't too big. Dyspo isn't CSSB level in the manga, but if 17 is on the level of the gods, then Dyspo isn't too far away, or else he would've gotten knocked out way earlier.
He wasn’t a god in comparison. He was definitely stronger, but not at that kind of level.
The whole hold seemed to be to do with how weakened Raditz was, he could have flew with Goku on him, but he didn’t. Raditz notes that Gohan injury to him as the reason why he’s stuck. If the full nelson was truly that impressive Goku could’ve done that at the start instead of grabbing Raditz tail. Also Raditz didn’t kill Gohan when he hit him, so he must’ve been severely weakened. :lol:

On to the next point... Dyspo was a joke, 17 just toyed with him it seems. 17 with his infinite power was dragging a fight out with a Dyspo that couldn’t even jump back to the arena when he went to Toppo.
I don't think Golden Freeza is as strong as CSSB Goku. Or, if he is, he's only that strong in bursts.
He was strong enough to lose to Goku, but give him a hell of a beating in the process just prior to the ToP
Honestly, for Toei productions, I think the most logical path to take is to ignore any Toei-exclusive arcs and, within the context of the main arc, pay attention only to small clashes with decisive results that exist for the sake of establishing power. Like SS3 Goku vs SS2 Trunks, or SS2 Goku vs Zamasu. You really can't derive anything from non-decisive battles, as anyone can hold their own against anyone else in Toeiland and make them look like they're trying. The most infamous incident would be Goku going SSB and gritting his teeth fighting Krillin, but it's been a recurring issue all the way back to the original Dragon Ball anime. My favorite incident in Z has to be base Goku holding his own against Fake Ultimate Gohan, and then commenting that he's as strong as the real one.
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I understand all of that, but I can’t rule out so much of the anime. Because in the Zamasu fight, Goku compares him to Beerus. It’s garbage, but Toei seem to be riding with the super powered bases post SSJG.
We honestly need to know what Toriyama thinks on these matters, it’s basically as simple as that. But the shit thing is that we may never know.
The fandom is full of uncertainty, and we could do with an explanation surrounding these issues.
Last edited by Sora Saiyan on Wed Nov 21, 2018 4:32 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Wed Nov 21, 2018 3:06 am

Post Edit!

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by AvatarReiko » Wed Nov 21, 2018 6:47 pm

How does SSJB Gogeta stack up to Whis? Both trashed Broly like he was a child. Would Gogeta need MUI?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ssj3kakarot » Wed Nov 21, 2018 10:38 pm

AvatarReiko wrote:How does SSJB Gogeta stack up to Whis? Both trashed Broly like he was a child. Would Gogeta need MUI?
MUI Gogeta would get trashed by Whis.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Thu Nov 22, 2018 12:44 am

Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
Miracles wrote: The manga had 17 push SSJ3 back. A limit of power was never given to him in the manga until now.
We were still lead to believe he was SSJ3 level. If he was meant to be CSSB level, they should have showed that at the time. He might as well have not been CSSB level, because we never see that strength on display at any point, it meant absolutely nothing.

Now I just find it hilarious that at the time I heard all these people like "17 shouldn't have been SSB level, good thing the manga corrected that and only made him SSJ3 level" and now here we are and it turns out they were wrong to be praising the manga for that.
Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.
I do not think Goku referred to his full power when he said that he was as strong as he was. After all, he unlocked the MUI during the tournament and Vegeta a '' new form '' that according to Jiren was above all he faced before (except for UI Goku himself) and we know that 17 is nowhere near that.

17 in ToP showed no indication of being close to the power of Goku CSSB, at most something around SSG, although his power was not clear in the manga

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:20 am

TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Miracles wrote:
PFM18 wrote:
We were still lead to believe he was SSJ3 level. If he was meant to be CSSB level, they should have showed that at the time. He might as well have not been CSSB level, because we never see that strength on display at any point, it meant absolutely nothing.

Now I just find it hilarious that at the time I heard all these people like "17 shouldn't have been SSB level, good thing the manga corrected that and only made him SSJ3 level" and now here we are and it turns out they were wrong to be praising the manga for that.
Actually we were not led to believe anything concerning 17's full power. Other than the fact that 17 is strong.
If the fandom jumped to an erroneous conclusion off of an unfinished battle where 17 wasn't even pressured, that's their problem.
I do not think Goku referred to his full power when he said that he was as strong as he was. After all, he unlocked the MUI during the tournament and Vegeta a '' new form '' that according to Jiren was above all he faced before (except for UI Goku himself) and we know that 17 is nowhere near that.

17 in ToP showed no indication of being close to the power of Goku CSSB, at most something around SSG, although his power was not clear in the manga
That's literally the point of the conversation we were having. We received no indication during the tournament that he was that strong, but once it is over it is clearly stated that he IS that strong. It is just poor writing to not portray him that way the entire tournament but then say it is the case after the tournament.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Sora Saiyan » Thu Nov 22, 2018 1:33 am

Base Vegeta travels several thousand kilometres in “5 seconds” in the latest chapter. It appears to be more like 2-3 seconds, since Goku pretty much readied his teleport, and only got a line in saying “what’re you guys doing with Buu” before Vegeta got there. Even though it’s not a great feat, it’s still a time frame that shits on Gohans 1000km in 20 minutes in the Buu arc.
So Vegeta was very likely travelling at 10,000+ times the speed of sound at a bare minimum. Not fantastic at this stage, but I guess it’s a time frame for the manga base Saiyans casual-ish speed.

Even so, there’s no precise distance between Satan City, and West City ever given. All we really know is that the Son family house is in the same section of the DB map, and West City is way further out. This information is based on a geographical map of the DB world.

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