Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Kenneth La Torre]

Id say that the only think we have to rely on right now is the manga, if one doesnt want to take the poster seriously. So i would just leave this subject as it wont change anyones mind. Those who believe beerus is stronger will keep believing it, and those who believe jiren and Ui goku are stronger will as well.

[Miracles]

No, you don't need a direct Beerus comparison just like the Grand Priest doesn't need to be compared to Yamcha. Again unless you're claiming that Beerus isn't a God of Destruction, the statement encompasses him. The "differences" between the Gods are irrelevant.

Except the Grand Priest was compared to everyone, including Yamcha when he was directly defined/stated that he is second to Zeno.
None of that stated with UI Goku or Jiren. Even Whis states MUI is god level in 129. When he said Goku continually breaking his limits to achieve UI is harder on the body when "approaching the state of the gods."
It's all vague you need direct statements or showings of actual fights.

[PFM18]

I don't know, I think this is one of those cases where "Show, Don't Tell" is in full effect.

Nobody wants to outright say that Beerus was surpassed, because he hadn't been up until this point; he was on too much of a pedestal, narratively speaking.

Instead, they (at least Toei, anyways) have crafted a scenario where Goku has silently gone past Beerus's level by introducing a character (Jiren) who by all accounts is stronger than the enigmatic Hakaishin of Universe 7, thus necessitating that Goku attain a form that can beat even him.

Nothing's ever outright said, but I think the narrative trend favours the subtle and indirect approach more.

Exactly. I agree 100%. The show shouldn't NEED to explicitly state it, because of the "show don't tell" concept going on here. It fits extremely well into the narrative of UI being the "state not even GoDs can use" sort of thing

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

No, you don't need a direct Beerus comparison just like the Grand Priest doesn't need to be compared to Yamcha. Again unless you're claiming that Beerus isn't a God of Destruction, the statement encompasses him. The "differences" between the Gods are irrelevant.

Except the Grand Priest was compared to everyone, including Yamcha when he was directly defined/stated that he is second to Zeno.
None of that stated with UI Goku or Jiren. Even Whis states MUI is god level in 129. When he said Goku continually breaking his limits to achieve UI is harder on the body when "approaching the state of the gods."
It's all vague you need direct statements or showings of actual fights.

It's never stated that the Grand Priest is second to Zeno, so nope. The Yamcha comparison holds. And by your logic that still wouldn't matter since there wasn't a specific comparison. It's "vague".
And Goku and Jiren were compared to the Gods of Destruction. Yet you're saying that "Power that surpasses a God of Destruction" doesn't apply to Beerus when the statement refers to anything that's a God of Destruction.

It doesn't get any clearer than that. You're inability to grasp it doesn't make it vague. The power of a God of Destruction is stated to be inferior to them and Beerus is a God of Destruction.

[Koitsukai]

Wait, that's proof in your eyes? that is proof that Whis lied???? he did know that Belmond is physically stronger than Beerus(Beerus never claimed that he was holding back, that it was a tie or that Belmond cheated, he lost fair and square), and then you find out that Jiren cleans the floor with Belmond, in an arm-wrestling match red aura Jiren would rip off Beerus's arm.

Wow, when arm wrestling match = actual combat strength, you know the Dragonball fandom got problems. This is why Beerus contradicted Whis. It was only in arm wrestling, meaning it wasn't actual combat.
Whis didn't even know which mortal and verse until he confirmed the "rumor" about Jiren resisting the Genki dama. Whis was outright wrong about Beerus situation.

Then is not the fandom that has problems because Whis came to that conclusion before any other memeber of the fanbase. It was stated by a character that knows better than anyone what Beerus is made of, that he was surpassed by another hakaishin and concluded that said god is all-in-all above Beerus, if some part of the fandom want to ignore that fact or prefer not to believe it because it doesn't fit with their headcannon or don't really want to accept that characters lie, boast, bluff and have pride, then fine but it happened.
Worst case scenario Belmond just has stronger arms, but the show tries to show that one of the most common demostrations of physical strenght ended up with Belmond winning it. Shirtless Jiren was in a whole other dimension than his dressed self who was already stronger than Belmond, and Goku kicked his ass.

The show is pretty clear, if it tried to be any more clear then it would be spoon-feeding it to us, which is not necessary, we can connect dots unless we don't want to.

[Kenneth La Torre]

You know, now that we are in the subject of hakaishins, jiren and UI goku, i wonder if 110 UI goku actually surpassed some hakaishins, the weakest of the bunch. If we go by 129 goku possibly being beyond beerus, that means that 2nd triger and 1st trigger goku wasnt above all the hakaishins, most likely most of them were above UI goku.

[PFM18]

You know, now that we are in the subject of hakaishins, jiren and UI goku, i wonder if 110 UI goku actually surpassed some hakaishins, the weakest of the bunch. If we go by 129 goku possibly being beyond beerus, that means that 2nd triger and 1st trigger goku wasnt above all the hakaishins, most likely most of them were above UI goku.

I doubt the first Omen surpasses any of them besides maybe Sidra

[Myzt0gun]

You know, now that we are in the subject of hakaishins, jiren and UI goku, i wonder if 110 UI goku actually surpassed some hakaishins, the weakest of the bunch. If we go by 129 goku possibly being beyond beerus, that means that 2nd triger and 1st trigger goku wasnt above all the hakaishins, most likely most of them were above UI goku.

I doubt the first Omen surpasses any of them besides maybe Sidra

To be fair, i don't think just because Sidra is the god of the lowest level universe means he is the weakest, and Frieza had a hard time escaping from 1 of his destruction balls (which is not even full power)
And if you want to use the manga as basis, He is the fastest Barrier/Shield Caster

back to the topic, i think only the mastered UI (white hair) is sure to surpass God of Destructions, and
Goku's UI form during his fight with Kefla will give the gods a decent fight but will still lose

[Bullza]

I don't know where all this confusion has come from.

Toppo transformed to become a God of Destruction. Jiren was clearly stronger than he was which goes back to all the conversation about a mortal being stronger than a God of Destruction before.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku was at least on par with that strength when he fought him for the final time and Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren with his hidden power are far stronger still.

So of course he's stronger than a God of Destruction. Beerus was pretty good too because he also had Ultra Instinct to an extent so at best I could see him being about as strong as Jiren but not nearly as strong as Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku....because he hasn't mastered it.

[Hugo Boss]

Beerus was pretty good too because he also had Ultra Instinct to an extent so at best I could see him being about as strong as Jiren but not nearly as strong as Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku....because he hasn't mastered it.

Goku hasn’t mastered Ultra Instinct as well. The difference is that the toll on Goku’s body is much heavier.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I don't know where all this confusion has come from.

Toppo transformed to become a God of Destruction. Jiren was clearly stronger than he was which goes back to all the conversation about a mortal being stronger than a God of Destruction before.

Ultra Instinct Omen Goku was at least on par with that strength when he fought him for the final time and Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren with his hidden power are far stronger still.

So of course he's stronger than a God of Destruction. Beerus was pretty good too because he also had Ultra Instinct to an extent so at best I could see him being about as strong as Jiren but not nearly as strong as Mastered Ultra Instinct Goku....because he hasn't mastered it.

I think the confusion comes from people wanting actual statements in the show. We know UI goku Completed a form no hakaishin has reached, not even beerus, who has a very sloppy UI sign. We know that there are promotional material for 129 goku possibly being above beerus, but the show didnt go out of its way to state such a thing. And i guess some people have something against secondary source material.

[Bullza]

Is it just him being above Beerus specifically​?

He's very obviously above every other God of Destruction. Unless Beerus was exceptional for his kind then the same is true for him as well. The manga shows he is probably the best but not by leaps and bounds.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Is it just him being above Beerus specifically​?

He's very obviously above every other God of Destruction. Unless Beerus was exceptional for his kind then the same is true for him as well. The manga shows he is probably the best but not by leaps and bounds.

I mean, i guess everybody would agree that if someone is above beerus, they would probably above all gods of destruction. Tho as tye manga has shown, every hakaishin can cause severe damage to each other. Beerus face was fucked up before he went to confront quitela

[Miracles]

It's never stated that the Grand Priest is second to Zeno, so nope. The Yamcha comparison holds. And by your logic that still wouldn't matter since there wasn't a specific comparison. It's "vague". And Goku and Jiren were compared to the Gods of Destruction. Yet you're saying that "Power that surpasses a God of Destruction" doesn't apply to Beerus when the statement refers to anything that's a God of Destruction.

It doesn't get any clearer than that. You're inability to grasp it doesn't make it vague. The power of a God of Destruction is stated to be inferior to them and Beerus is a God of Destruction.

Wrong, Vegeta was stated to surpass a god that doesn't mean he is stronger than all gods. It's a vague statement, it also doesn't mean he is on the level of MUI Goku and Jiren. Also Whis clearly states that breaking ones limits in mastering UI is REACHING the state of the gods in 129. Not beyond it. Also, it is stated that the grand priest IS the strongest being in all the universe in the manga, that's behind Zenoh [ch. 18]. In the anime it is stated he is one of the top five fighters in all the universes. Both are DIRECT power defining statement about the priest, that means Yamcha is weaker than the Grand Priest.

So again, you got nothing but mixed messages with no clear blunt statements or showings.

Then is not the fandom that has problems because Whis came to that conclusion before any other memeber of the fanbase. It was stated by a character that knows better than anyone what Beerus is made of, that he was surpassed by another hakaishin and concluded that said god is all-in-all above Beerus, if some part of the fandom want to ignore that fact or prefer not to believe it because it doesn't fit with their headcannon or don't really want to accept that characters lie, boast, bluff and have pride, then fine but it happened.
Worst case scenario Belmond just has stronger arms, but the show tries to show that one of the most common demostrations of physical strenght ended up with Belmond winning it. Shirtless Jiren was in a whole other dimension than his dressed self who was already stronger than Belmond, and Goku kicked his ass.

The show is pretty clear, if it tried to be any more clear then it would be spoon-feeding it to us, which is not necessary, we can connect dots unless we don't want to.

No, everything you mentioned is headcannon cause Whis didn't mention Belmound beating Beerus, Whis admitted he didn't even know WHO the god was or which mortal or universe when he finally saw Jiren in the TOP against the Genki Dama. He clearly confessed that what he stated earlier was a "RUMOR." Whis came to no conclusion about Beerus cause he didn't even know who Beerus arm wrestled nor that he lost at arm wrestling. . And no, arm wrestling doesn't dictate strength hence why Beerus stated so and made sure to let everyone know he didn't lose in combat.

It's just bad reading by the fandom and then they want to call TOEI "trolls" when they feel their headcannon's aren't fulfilled.

[Hugo Boss]

We know UI goku Completed a form no hakaishin has reached, not even beerus, who has a very sloppy UI sign.

I would like to know what gives you the impression Beerus or any other God of Destruction never used the same version of Ultra Instinct that Goku did. The only thing we know is that none besides the angels can willingly use the form yet. If Goku had complete control over the form’s power, than I think there would be little to no doubt he surpassed Beerus. But as things are of now, there isn’t anything settled.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

It's never stated that the Grand Priest is second to Zeno, so nope. The Yamcha comparison holds. And by your logic that still wouldn't matter since there wasn't a specific comparison. It's "vague". And Goku and Jiren were compared to the Gods of Destruction. Yet you're saying that "Power that surpasses a God of Destruction" doesn't apply to Beerus when the statement refers to anything that's a God of Destruction.

It doesn't get any clearer than that. You're inability to grasp it doesn't make it vague. The power of a God of Destruction is stated to be inferior to them and Beerus is a God of Destruction.

Wrong, Vegeta was stated to surpass a god that doesn't mean he is stronger than all gods. It's a vague statement, it also doesn't mean he is on the level of MUI Goku and Jiren. Also Whis clearly states that breaking ones limits in mastering UI is REACHING the state of the gods in 129. Not beyond it. Also, it is stated that the grand priest IS the strongest being in all the universe in the manga, that's behind Zenoh [ch. 18]. In the anime it is stated he is one of the top five fighters in all the universes. Both are DIRECT power defining statement about the priest, that means Yamcha is weaker than the Grand Priest.

So again, you got nothing but mixed messages with no clear blunt statements or showings.

Then is not the fandom that has problems because Whis came to that conclusion before any other memeber of the fanbase. It was stated by a character that knows better than anyone what Beerus is made of, that he was surpassed by another hakaishin and concluded that said god is all-in-all above Beerus, if some part of the fandom want to ignore that fact or prefer not to believe it because it doesn't fit with their headcannon or don't really want to accept that characters lie, boast, bluff and have pride, then fine but it happened.
Worst case scenario Belmond just has stronger arms, but the show tries to show that one of the most common demostrations of physical strenght ended up with Belmond winning it. Shirtless Jiren was in a whole other dimension than his dressed self who was already stronger than Belmond, and Goku kicked his ass.

The show is pretty clear, if it tried to be any more clear then it would be spoon-feeding it to us, which is not necessary, we can connect dots unless we don't want to.

No, everything you mentioned is headcannon cause Whis didn't mention Belmound beating Beerus, Whis admitted he didn't even know WHO the god was or which mortal or universe when he finally saw Jiren in the TOP against the Genki Dama. He clearly confessed that what he stated earlier was a "RUMOR." Whis came to no conclusion about Beerus cause he didn't even know who Beerus arm wrestled nor that he lost at arm wrestling. . And no, arm wrestling doesn't dictate strength hence why Beerus stated so and made sure to let everyone know he didn't lose in combat.

It's just bad reading by the fandom and then they want to call TOEI "trolls" when they feel their headcannon's aren't fulfilled.

Ultra Instinct is the state of the Gods. Goku's Ultra Instinct was incomplete and by mastering it, was closer to reaching that state. That statement has nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction.

Jiren and Goku are stated to have power surpassing a God of Destruction. So they are stronger than the Gods of Destruction. Beerus is a God of Destruction. Not my problem if you're incapable of comprehending simple literature.

[Miracles]

Ultra Instinct is the state of the Gods. Goku's Ultra Instinct was incomplete and by mastering it, was closer to reaching that state. That statement has nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction.

Jiren and Goku are stated to have power surpassing a God of Destruction. So they are stronger than the Gods of Destruction. Beerus is a God of Destruction. Not my problem if you're incapable of comprehending simple literature.

I'm the one who understands literature cause you can't give me concrete proof of definite statements. I can tho, Jiren was specifically stated to have power surpassing a god, which was ONLY Belmond. A straight up FACT, MUI Goku beat Jiren, that means Goku is stronger than both Jiren and Belmound. Vegeta surpassed god of destruction Toppo. That only means he is stronger than god Toppo. To say "they surpass the state of the gods" isn't definitive of anything cause we KNOW the state of the gods are DIFFERENT. Hence why Whis states the three times Goku broke his limits in trying to master UI, takes a toll on his body trying to "APPROACH the state of the gods." Mastering UI IS the state of the gods not surpassing it. It is even stated earlier that achieving UI is only not EASY for a god, no where does it state they surpass each god individually in power.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Ultra Instinct is the state of the Gods. Goku's Ultra Instinct was incomplete and by mastering it, was closer to reaching that state. That statement has nothing to do with the Gods of Destruction.

Jiren and Goku are stated to have power surpassing a God of Destruction. So they are stronger than the Gods of Destruction. Beerus is a God of Destruction. Not my problem if you're incapable of comprehending simple literature.

I'm the one who understands literature cause you can't give me concrete proof of definite statements. I can tho, Jiren was specifically stated to have power surpassing a god, which was ONLY Belmond. A straight up FACT, MUI Goku beat Jiren, that means Goku is stronger than both Jiren and Belmound. Vegeta surpassed god of destruction Toppo. That only means he is stronger than god Toppo. To say "they surpass the state of the gods" isn't definitive of anything cause we KNOW the state of the gods are DIFFERENT. Hence why Whis states the three times Goku broke his limits in trying to master UI, takes a toll on his body trying to "APPROACH the state of the gods." Mastering UI IS the state of the gods not surpassing it. It is even stated earlier that achieving UI is only not EASY for a god, no where does it state they surpass each god individually in power.

It isn't stated anywhere that the Gods of Destruction have different states and the fact that you're even saying this shows that didn't even come close to properly interpreting the story. The God of Destruction state is labeled as one state and it applies to everyone that's a God of Destruction.

All of the Gods of Destruction are Gods of Destruction. So surpassing the God of Destruction state means that Jiren is above anything that's a God of Destruction since he's above that state of being. None of the Gods of Destruction by definition have transcended the state of God of Destruction. Stop trying to rewrite the dictionary. It only makes your argument look more ridiculous.

[Kenneth La Torre]

We know UI goku Completed a form no hakaishin has reached, not even beerus, who has a very sloppy UI sign.

I would like to know what gives you the impression Beerus or any other God of Destruction never used the same version of Ultra Instinct that Goku did. The only thing we know is that none besides the angels can willingly use the form yet. If Goku had complete control over the form’s power, than I think there would be little to no doubt he surpassed Beerus. But as things are of now, there isn’t anything settled.

Its been stated many times that UI is a form no god has completed. Its a form stated beyond hakaishins in many promotional materials. But i know a small portion of people dont accept that.

[Kenneth La Torre]

We know UI goku Completed a form no hakaishin has reached, not even beerus, who has a very sloppy UI sign.

I would like to know what gives you the impression Beerus or any other God of Destruction never used the same version of Ultra Instinct that Goku did. The only thing we know is that none besides the angels can willingly use the form yet. If Goku had complete control over the form’s power, than I think there would be little to no doubt he surpassed Beerus. But as things are of now, there isn’t anything settled.

I guess that in primary canon, the only thing left to clarify it is the manga, which I'm almost 90% certain toyotaro will touch upon.