Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[dragon boss z]

5. Frieza says Super Saiyan Caulifla is much stronger than the first Super Saiyan he ever fought which would be Goku on Namek. That is probably no surprise at all though.

This is an interesting statement though because it does imply base Caulifla probably wasn't much stronger than Goku when he first went ssj. It could even imply she could be weaker, but I wouldn't take that as a conformation. I'm thinking her base is between ssj namek Goku and perfect Cell, with her ssj being above Buu making it much stronger than when Goku first went ssj.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

5. Frieza says Super Saiyan Caulifla is much stronger than the first Super Saiyan he ever fought which would be Goku on Namek. That is probably no surprise at all though.

This is an interesting statement though because it does imply base Caulifla probably wasn't much stronger than Goku when he first went ssj. It could even imply she could be weaker, but I wouldn't take that as a conformation. I'm thinking her base is between ssj namek Goku and perfect Cell, with her ssj being above Buu making it much stronger than when Goku first went ssj.

Why would that be the conclusion you'd draw?

We only know how Caulifla compares to Freeza, but not how Freeza compares to Buu or Cell. He only states that as a Super Saiyan, she's much stronger than Goku was on Namek as a Super Saiyan; a point of comparison between Super Saiyans, and that's it. There's no further reference about how her base form compares.

[dragon boss z]

5. Frieza says Super Saiyan Caulifla is much stronger than the first Super Saiyan he ever fought which would be Goku on Namek. That is probably no surprise at all though.

This is an interesting statement though because it does imply base Caulifla probably wasn't much stronger than Goku when he first went ssj. It could even imply she could be weaker, but I wouldn't take that as a conformation. I'm thinking her base is between ssj namek Goku and perfect Cell, with her ssj being above Buu making it much stronger than when Goku first went ssj.

Why would that be the conclusion you'd draw?

We only know how Caulifla compares to Freeza, but not how Freeza compares to Buu or Cell. He only states that as a Super Saiyan, she's much stronger than Goku was on Namek as a Super Saiyan; a point of comparison between Super Saiyans, and that's it. There's no further reference about how her base form compares.

Because if her base was already much stronger than ssj Goku the statement would be redundant. Piccolo putting up a fight against Frost who was stronger than base Cabba also supports my claim as Piccolo was weaker than good Buu and probably still weaker than Perfect Cell as well.

[Bullza]

So from what I can gather.

Super Saiyan > Frieza > Frost > Piccolo > Base Saiyan

[Koitsukai]

What a mess, so if Kale can take on SSB and Golden Freeza, then SS Kefla should be enough to take on Full Power Jiren

[Doctor.]

Exactly how much stronger is still as debatable as ever.

Well, not quite. They're at least stronger than PIccolo.

[Marlowe89]

Well, not quite. They're at least stronger than PIccolo.

I should have clarified, but I meant that it's debatable beyond that point. The Super Saiyans are definitely stronger than Piccolo, outliers be damned.

Personally, I'm siding with dragon boss z's post as for how strong they're supposed to be in base.

What a mess, so if Kale can take on SSB and Golden Freeza, then SS Kefla should be enough to take on Full Power Jiren

Not necessarily. If Kefla isn't berserk, her power wouldn't be drawing from the same factor said to increase Kale's strength constantly throughout the tournament.

[PFM18]

What a mess, so if Kale can take on SSB and Golden Freeza, then SS Kefla should be enough to take on Full Power Jiren

Exactly. After seeing this I think it is clear that Kefla will not appear in the manga. Kefla appeared as a fuel source to Goku's 2nd UI Omen but in the manga UI Omen is not a thing so it makes sense in that sense. Also, it appears Kale is being used as a substitute to Kefla in the manga. In both versions Goku fights a very strong Universe 6 Saiyan, in the anime it was Kefla and in the manga it will be Kale.

5. Frieza says Super Saiyan Caulifla is much stronger than the first Super Saiyan he ever fought which would be Goku on Namek. That is probably no surprise at all though.

This is an interesting statement though because it does imply base Caulifla probably wasn't much stronger than Goku when he first went ssj. It could even imply she could be weaker, but I wouldn't take that as a conformation. I'm thinking her base is between ssj namek Goku and perfect Cell, with her ssj being above Buu making it much stronger than when Goku first went ssj.

Why would that be the conclusion you'd draw?

We only know how Caulifla compares to Freeza, but not how Freeza compares to Buu or Cell. He only states that as a Super Saiyan, she's much stronger than Goku was on Namek as a Super Saiyan; a point of comparison between Super Saiyans, and that's it. There's no further reference about how her base form compares.

I think that he is saying that because Freeza found it notable that she surpassed Namek Goku, then the gap probably isn't that large.

You're right, but a couple of certain users would argue otherwise, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary.

Uhh no in the manga nobody would argue otherwise. The manga had no absorption scene in space and so the SSJ being god tier was never called into question.

It is made obvious that SSJ Goku>SSG Goku BoG in the anime.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

This is an interesting statement though because it does imply base Caulifla probably wasn't much stronger than Goku when he first went ssj. It could even imply she could be weaker, but I wouldn't take that as a conformation. I'm thinking her base is between ssj namek Goku and perfect Cell, with her ssj being above Buu making it much stronger than when Goku first went ssj.

Why would that be the conclusion you'd draw?

We only know how Caulifla compares to Freeza, but not how Freeza compares to Buu or Cell. He only states that as a Super Saiyan, she's much stronger than Goku was on Namek as a Super Saiyan; a point of comparison between Super Saiyans, and that's it. There's no further reference about how her base form compares.

I think that he is saying that because Freeza found it notable that she surpassed Namek Goku, then the gap probably isn't that large.

Vegeta also thought that the Kaioshin of Universe 7 being above Freeza was "impressive", even though he and the others had surpassed that point long ago.

Point is, a comparison of Super Saiyan forms only tells us that Freeza is inferior to the current participating Super Saiyans whom are much stronger than the Super Saiyans that he himself fought before being revived. Without specific reference to untransformed states and a comparison that firmly places Freeza's base form next to characters that we know for certain are resting at specific levels, it's only an interpretation that doesn't exclusively imply that conclusion.

[LightBing]

I would hold my horses at putting Kale on par with SSB and Golden Freeza. Much of the action is based on the surprise factor.

Freeza isn't worried after being thrashed around instead he's wondering what type of Super Saiyan Kale is, even smiling before Goku interferes. That's not the attitude of someone who's about to lose.
Goku kicks her rather easily and is overwhelmed because Kale is constantly increasing her power. Even Kaioshin and Beerus are more worried about Goku and Freeza discussion than Kale if, she was that strong we'd get a reaction.

However, in her final spike of power we actually see characters being concerned. So while before the spike I confidently believe she's not that big of a threat, afterwards that might not be the case.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I would hold my horses at putting Kale on par with SSB and Golden Freeza. Much of the action is based on the surprise factor.

Freeza isn't worried after being thrashed around instead he's wondering what type of Super Saiyan Kale is, even smiling before Goku interferes. That's not the attitude of someone who's about to lose.
Goku kicks her rather easily and is overwhelmed because Kale is constantly increasing her power. Even Kaioshin and Beerus are more worried about Goku and Freeza discussion than Kale if, she was that strong we'd get a reaction.

However, in her final spike of power we actually see characters being concerned. So while before the spike I confidently believe she's not that big of a threat, afterwards that might not be the case.

Ah, so the threat of her constantly increasing power overtaking them before they get serious.

That, I can certainly see being the case.

[ZombieVito]

So base Kale > SS Caulifla? Very interesting, if we apply this to the anime then base Kefla beating a tired SSG Goku makes a bit more sense.

It would seem that way. Base Kale was pretty useless in the anime but maybe that was a confidence thing.

Does Freeza being beneath SS tier help confirm the retcon theory? At least for the manga?

No it wouldn't seem to be an issue. He put up a good fight against Super Saiyan Caulifla who he said was much stronger than Super Saiyan Goku on Namek so he's obviously trained just like the anime.

It would just appear to be consistent with the anime where it was implied he was stronger than Base Goku. It would make no sense for Frieza to have been Super Saiyan God level and still fight somewhat evenly with him.

Without a frame of reference for where Freeza stands next to characters like Piccolo or Buu, we won't know for certain.

Frieza should be above Piccolo. A few things imply as much.

Yeah, she even appears to power up in base before transforming into Bersek in E100.

What things point to FF Freeza > Piccolo btw?

[dragon boss z]

So from what I can gather.

Super Saiyan > Frieza > Frost > Piccolo > Base Saiyan

I agree with this. Though it depends on the saiyan. Base Kale seems to be above ssj Caulifla and Caulifla is probably above Cabba.

So I would say

base Kale>ssj Caulifla>ssj Cabba<=>final form Frieza>>base Caulifla>base Cabba

What things point to FF Freeza > Piccolo btw?

Because Frost is above Piccolo and Frieza is above Frost.

[ZombieVito]

I honestly still to this day don't think Freeza is stronger than Frost without Golden. It makes no sense for him to tire him out or get him off guard to eliminate him otherwise.

And Freeza didnt seem that much stronger than base Goku in RoF. If he is close to SS tier now then his Golden form can't be equal to Blue Goku.

[Bullza]

What things point to FF Freeza > Piccolo btw?

Piccolo was having trouble with a few of those from Universe 9 whereas Frost steamrolled a greater amount of them. When Piccolo fought Bergamo he said if it was one of them he could manage which would imply he couldn't handle all three whereas those three ran away from Frost.

So Frost would be stronger than Piccolo which we saw earlier anyway.

When Frost is faced with Super Saiyan Goku, Frieza tells him that he'd be too much for him to handle.

Yet Frieza went up against Super Saiyan Caulifla and he did pretty well for himself which makes it seem like Frieza is stronger than Frost so would be stronger than Piccolo in turn.

Also the anime does say Frieza is quite a bit ahead of Frost too even without his Golden Form.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I honestly still to this day don't think Freeza is stronger than Frost without Golden. It makes no sense for him to tire him out or get him off guard to eliminate him otherwise.

And Freeza didnt seem that much stronger than base Goku in RoF. If he is close to SS tier now then his Golden form can't be equal to Blue Goku.

That's partially why I think Freeza has two "base modes", in a sense, though only in the anime.

His "standard" base/Final Form has power equivalent to the base Saiyans and Frost, but he can use a "super base form" that would be akin to his 100% buffed-up form on Namek and give him enough power to rival the Super Saiyans. I base this off of Freeza's exchange with Frost before he eliminated, as well as him visibly powering up further with his purple aura when Goku throws him at Jiren in the last episode of DBS.

Basically, Freeza can go 100% buffed up power without actually needing to buff up anymore. Of course, this is a personal assumption and far from likely.

[Marlowe89]

I honestly still to this day don't think Freeza is stronger than Frost without Golden. It makes no sense for him to tire him out or get him off guard to eliminate him otherwise.

That's just because Freeza was conserving stamina at that point in the tournament. He could have defeated Frost with Final Form, but the two were also close enough in power that he would have needed to exert a considerable amount of energy to do so, which would put him at a disadvantage. The entire message of the chapter is that fighting all-out without conserving any strength at the start of a long battle royale is a bad move.

The hierarchy is pretty straightforward: Golden Freeza >>> (base) Kale > Super Saiyans > Final Form Freeza > Final Form Frost > Piccolo.

[ZombieVito]

What things point to FF Freeza > Piccolo btw?

Piccolo was having trouble with a few of those from Universe 9 whereas Frost steamrolled a greater amount of them. When Piccolo fought Bergamo he said if it was one of them he could manage which would imply he couldn't handle all three whereas those three ran away from Frost.

So Frost would be stronger than Piccolo which we saw earlier anyway.

When Frost is faced with Super Saiyan Goku, Frieza tells him that he'd be too much for him to handle.

Yet Frieza went up against Super Saiyan Caulifla and he did pretty well for himself which makes it seem like Frieza is stronger than Frost so would be stronger than Piccolo in turn.

Also the anime does say Frieza is quite a bit ahead of Frost too even without his Golden Form.

The only reason Freeza gave SS Caulifla a fight was because of his psychic powers. Hand to hand he got overwhelmed.

I honestly still to this day don't think Freeza is stronger than Frost without Golden. It makes no sense for him to tire him out or get him off guard to eliminate him otherwise.

That's just because Freeza was conserving stamina at that point in the tournament. He could have defeated Frost with Final Form, but the two were also close enough in power that he would have needed to exert a considerable amount of energy to do so, which would put him at a disadvantage. The entire message of the chapter is that fighting all-out without conserving any strength at the start of a long battle royale is a bad move.

The hierarchy is pretty straightforward: Golden Freeza >>> (base) Kale > Super Saiyans > Final Form Freeza > Final Form Frost > Piccolo.

Then what's the deal with Freeza's Golden form? He shouldn't be equal to Goku if his final form is close to SS tier.

[dragon boss z]

The only reason Freeza gave SS Caulifla a fight was because of his psychic powers. Hand to hand he got overwhelmed.

Frieza never attempted fighting her in hand to hand. He just went right to using his telekinetic powers and after thinking he beat her he said she wasn't even worth playing with. And then Caulifla hit him with a powerful surprise attack at close range and he didn't go down, Caulifla even called him tough because of that. ssj Caulifla is a bit above final form Frieza, but just because Frieza was using his telekinetic powers does not mean he couldn't fight in hand to hand combat as well.

Then what's the deal with Freeza's Golden form? He shouldn't be equal to Goku if his final form is close to SS tier.

We have no idea how the multipliers work with golden form and SSB, and Goku has mastered SSB now which makes things different as well.

[Marlowe89]

Then what's the deal with Freeza's Golden form? He shouldn't be equal to Goku if his final form is close to SS tier.

Sure he can be. In the manga, Goku's Super Saiyan Blue form is on another level compared to what it was in Resurrection 'F' because he completed it since then. On top of that, it's specifically implied in the anime that Freeza was holding back against base Goku during the same arc.

He definitely isn't base tier and this month's chapter was pretty clear-cut about that.