Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[TAF108]

I dunno. For me those things never seemed like inconsistencies, and more like they were for the gags. The majority occurred during the Black Star Dragon Ball arc where the intention was to try to capture the feel of the original, slap stick gags and all. Now you could say those jokes were in bad taste or that they just flat out didn't land, but I wouldn't call it a inconsistency because all of the "damage" would be brushed over once the gag was over. In terms of scaling, it was pretty consistent. Goku would never lose to someone he was established as more powerful than and vice versa. Now if the Goku getting shot with a lazer by Mutchi gag isn't funny, it's understandable.

For Super the scaling issues really just come in with the plot. Certain characters will be as strong as they need to be in order to suit the plot of the story and there won't really be any rhyme or reason for it. I think the best instance of this is Dragon Ball Super episode 98. In the episode Son Goku is struggling with the Trio De Dangers. When from what we know, only Bergamo could possibly be a threat to him. As we know Basil is only SSJ2 tier (Likely as strong as Majin Vegeta or a bit higher), and Lavenda is only a bit stronger than drugged Basil (So SSJ3ish), unless you say that because Base Gohan could handle him that makes super weak, in which case it's even worse. But throughout the episode, Goku & Vegeta struggle with the U9 fighters. Even the best explanations don't really account for why Goku doesn't one-shot Basil and Lavenda. We see that the brother's fight him one on one. Sure they switch off, but there is a period during the "Danger's Triangle" where Goku is just straight up trading blows with them. On Namek, he showed that he could defeat people half his strength in one blow without killing them. Fast forward, Goku goes SSJ and the fight immediately becomes easier, but icing on the cake, Super Saiyajin Blue collab is what knocks the Trio off.

This is to me what shows how Super approaches power scaling. Things will just happen to suit the plot, and it'll be semi unnecessary. Why is Goku struggling with U9? Aside from the out of continuity answer that his base strength may have been retconned (Or he has a second one for the other camp), why does he need to go beyond SSJ? So Kale can be blown away by his Blue form. But SSJ3 could've accomplished the same thing. A form she knows nothing about is all that's required from episode 100 to happen. Next is the return of SSJG which gives Goku some sort of advantge over Hit to fight Dyspo (subtly placing Hit below Blue when previously he was a match for it.), but also brings up an interesting question.

The whole stamina issues for SSJB was a throwaway line basically for U6 Tournament, and then during the Goku Black arc he and Vegeta use it like gang-busters. Bring us to the current arc, and Whis reminds us of just how the form can't be used willy nilly. Yet Goku has used it willy nilly several times. Around 3 times so far I count where it wasn't needed. (Once to escape that guys hold, against the Trio De Dangers, and then against Kale. Though the latter I'll mildly accept.) So, why not use SSJG before hand? He seemed to be just blowing out Blue despite the supposed issues. It makes me curious if there's something special about him using SSJG that he would wait so long to use it? Surely it would've been more beneficial for both the plot and practical use.

While I think the Tournament of Power is the most egregious example of this, and shouldn't really be scaled, the Botamo scene was interesting. Gohan was able to physically move Botamo with his blows, something Goku couldn't do during the U6 arc. So it's further confirmation of Gohan's progression as well as that of Goku and Co. Ribranne might end up being powerful, depending on how much 17 was trying. She's the first character to break No. 17's barrier from what I've seen. Of course the effort he put into it was debatable. Gohan definitely seems more powerful than his opponent this episode.

The biggest take away, is that Son Goku forgot his own advice and will continue to be off guard. I kind of have a hard time imagining that Jiren won't take advantge of this obvious weakness and treat him like Kale.

But at the very least I'd say base Goku > Su Roas, Ultimate Gohan >= Obuni, and it was pretty obvious but Ribranne is the strongest "magical girl". Though her being the strongest of U2 is debatable.

[ZombieVito]

It's a problem because Kuririn and 18 are shown to be comparable to base Goku. If Goku's stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, then so are they. And if Kuririn is, so are Tenshinhan and Roshi as well.

Yeah, this is a big problem.

Gohan is also comparable to base Goku but at the same time weaker than his Boo arc self. Piccolo in the U6 arc should be weaker than Boo but now he can't.

At least with Saiyan beyond God the scaling worked. Now with the return of Super Saiyan God everything is fucked.

[Doctor.]

It's a problem because Kuririn and 18 are shown to be comparable to base Goku. If Goku's stronger than SS3 Gotenks in base, then so are they. And if Kuririn is, so are Tenshinhan and Roshi as well.

Yeah, this is a big problem.

Gohan is also comparable to base Goku but at the same time weaker than his Boo arc self. Piccolo in the U6 arc should be weaker than Boo but now he can't.

At least with Saiyan beyond God the scaling worked. Now with the return of Super Saiyan God everything is fucked.

I guess if you really wanna force Saiyan Beyond God into things, you could say it goes like Base - > Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Saiyan Beyond God -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue.

Of course it doesn't make much sense as to how SSG and SBG can co-exist, but it's clear enough at this point that Goku's base is terribly inconsistent in the series and either you acknowledge that his strength gets retconned with every arc or you try to force in-universe solutions like above.

[ZombieVito]

I guess if you really wanna force Saiyan Beyond God into things, you could say it goes like Base - > Super Saiyan -> Super Saiyan 2 -> Super Saiyan 3 -> Saiyan Beyond God -> Super Saiyan God -> Super Saiyan Blue.

Of course it doesn't make much sense as to how SSG and SBG can co-exist, but it's clear enough at this point that Goku's base is terribly inconsistent in the series and either you acknowledge that his strength gets retconned with every arc or you try to force in-universe solutions like above.

All they have to say is that Goku could access some of the power of SSG in his base and now thanks to training he can now used all of it, turning into SSG again.

Everything makes sense if they do that.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Killin was never shown to be on par with base Goku. Ever.

Goku can access part of gods power in base. That isn't a separate base form though, it's just the one base he possesses. It's nowhere near ssjg though.

Not sure why everyone thinks Gotenks should be unsurpassable but 18 is stronger than him as of now since she's stronger than base Goku.

Gohans placement is just fine. All it means is that boos absorptions are multiplicative, not boo+Gotenks, but boo+Gotenks(x).

Goku could access ssjg again ever since he trained in the staff dimension. Blue is god+ssj. This should've been obvious. Goku being able to use blue but not god would be like saying he could use ssj2 but not ssj. Something the 2 base theory suggested which is part of why it's nonsense.

The power hierarchy and how the super Saiyan forms work makes perfect sense. People think the story doesn't make sense simply because it doesn't accommodate the 2 base theory. I mean, I don't really know what to say at this point. Follow the story next time without inserting headcanon and you won't have this problem.

[avasatu]

I doubt Gotenks is even as strong as he was in Z. In fact, based on what happened to Gohan when he got lax, I'd say Gotenks would be significantly weaker than he was back in the day. Base Goku is around Fat Buu, and Krillin isn't on par with him.

[Doctor.]

Killin was never shown to be on par with base Goku. Ever.

Nobody said on-par. We said comparable. The fact that he forced Goku to go Super Saiyan is proof enough. I don't know why people keep ignoring this and downplaying Kuririn's achievement, you can say Gohan was caught off-guard and was holding back because he underestimated Kuririn but Goku wasn't holding back or else he wouldn't have gone Super Saiyan.

Then there's the fact that he and #18 were fighting Shosa together and Kuririn could keep up with her blast's speed and could keep adding more power to it. Not to mention that Shosa managed to get some hits off on #18 and block others. Kuririn managed to keep up with the fight which proves he's comparable to them both, even if he's obviously weaker. Then there's #18 defeating Tupper, a character base Goku was having trouble with, which once again proves the three are comparable.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Krillin needed to use strategy against both base Goku and Gohan. And Goku only turned Super Saiyan so he wouldn't get pushed out, not because krillins blasts were a legitimate threat to him.

[Doctor.]

Krillin needed to use strategy against both base Goku and Gohan. And Goku only turned Super Saiyan so he wouldn't get pushed out, not because krillins blasts were a legitimate threat to him.

Goku wouldn't even need to turn Super Saiyan if Kuririn wasn't comparable to him. Kuririn's blasts wouldn't have the necessary power to even push Goku off if Goku was ridiculously stronger. Do you see Super Boo getting pushed back by Kuririn's blast? If the answer is no, then you're acknowledging Goku isn't that strong. If the answer is yes, then you're acknowledging Kuririn is comparable to Goku.

[LowRyder2005]

Killin was never shown to be on par with base Goku. Ever.

Goku can access part of gods power in base. That isn't a separate base form though, it's just the one base he possesses. It's nowhere near ssjg though.

Not sure why everyone thinks Gotenks should be unsurpassable but 18 is stronger than him as of now since she's stronger than base Goku.

Gohans placement is just fine. All it means is that boos absorptions are multiplicative, not boo+Gotenks, but boo+Gotenks(x).

Goku could access ssjg again ever since he trained in the staff dimension. Blue is god+ssj. This should've been obvious. Goku being able to use blue but not god would be like saying he could use ssj2 but not ssj. Something the 2 base theory suggested which is part of why it's nonsense.

The power hierarchy and how the super Saiyan forms work makes perfect sense. People think the story doesn't make sense simply because it doesn't accommodate the 2 base theory. I mean, I don't really know what to say at this point. Follow the story next time without inserting headcanon and you won't have this problem.

Since Trunks unequivocally states in the original manga that the Gohan he sees is just "a little stronger" than Gotenks, there's no less headcanon on your part when you argue Super somehow proved Gohan is in the order of a hundred of times stronger or more.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Yes, Krillin could push Goku with his ki blasts despite being much weaker. Same way Goku could blast away bootenks despite being over a hundred times weaker than him.




Are the base Saiyan stronger than Gotenks? Yes
Is ultimate Gohan stronger than ssj2 Gohan? Yes
There you go.

[Doctor.]

Same way Goku could blast away bootenks despite being over a hundred times weaker than him.

So we're using filler now?

And he wasn't hundreds of times weaker.

Again, could Kuririn blast away Super Boo?

[Bullza]

Since Trunks unequivocally states in the original manga that the Gohan he sees is just "a little stronger" than Gotenks

Does he? When was that.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Ssj3 Goku is around ssj3 Gotenks whom is over 100x weaker than boo arc ultimate Gohan as revealed in super.

Yes Krillin could push super boo with his blasts and there are plenty of examples of this. Zamasus blasts being a threat to Ssb Goku even though he's weaker than ssj2 Goku is just one.

[LowRyder2005]

You really don't get it, do you?

* Your argument's premise has indirectly to be that Trunks is wrong, even when this is never mentioned in the story.
* Then you argue something like two bases cannot exist because, well, it's basically never mentioned in the story.

Then what about arguing that SS3 Gotenks somehow got abnormally weaker or that some shenanigans prevented him from using the power he displayed in the Buu arc? Even that is not mentioned in the story. What makes it impossible?
The point is: you're still making theories about some arbitrary factor which is kept "undefined" in the story, in which case it's that Gohan that somehow dwarfs Gotenks' strength so much.

These are nothing more than your thoughts on the subject, with the added perk it looks quite hard to believe that Toriyama thought the Buu saga with such gigantic gaps in mind.
I think anyone, Toriyama included, would organically reach the conclusion that Goku, Gotenks and Gohan are relatively speaking in the same ballpark. Relativeness which does not constitute some astronomical "1 : 1000 : 100,000" ratio (which I suppose it's your idea of the gaps, given your tendency to take everything super literally at the expense of what others would label as "contextual reading").

Does he? When was that.

After Super Buu self-destructs to buy time.
Goten says something like "wow, Gohan is even stronger than our Super Gotenks", and Trunks replies "yeah, a little". It's pretty obvious most would naturally deduce Trunks is downplaying Gohan's strength to an extent, since the latter had completely dominated Buu; however if we were talking about some kind of 100 to 1 gap a friggin' sneeze of his would've killed Buu and Gotenks. So his contention rests on the idea Gohan either showed 1% of his power, while Super Buu powers gets multiplied exponentially and/or that Trunks is wrong/ lying. In the manga, even a *2 gap is enough to be defined as someone who completely outmatches the opponent; it'd be ludicrous to argue that it would be consistent or truthful for some character to unironically state a *100 is "a little".

Specifically, the exact quote is:

Chapter: 498 (DBZ 304), P7.4-5
Context: after Boo disappears
Trunks: “Even if he really is still alive, it doesn’t matter! That jerk was helpless against Gohan! [Gohan] was about as strong as our Super Gotenks!”
Goten: “He was even stronger.”
Trunks: “Really? … Yeah… Just a little bit.”

How these statements constitute less "headcanon" or - better yet, since this blasted term is shoved everywhere - less "personal deductions" than arguing the base form's strength seen at some point may have changed or be something different altogether is a mistery.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

>Admits that trunks is downplaying gohans power.
>somehow missed the obvious fact that this would mean that trunk's assessment is invalid.

Not to mention the fact that the same trunks thought that base Gotenks would be a match for super boo. In the context of the story, trunks is just a kid and so he acts as a kid and says ridiculous things like a kid would. This is just common sense.

Did toriyama envision such a huge gap between ultimate Gohan and ssj3? Probably not though that's irrelevant since nobody can prove anything about toriyamas though process.

What's fact now is as of super, base Gohan is stronger than ssj3 Gotenks. Even with his base power multiplied a hundred times over, he is still weaker than boo arc ultimate Gohan.

[LowRyder2005]

>Admits that trunks is downplaying gohans power.
>somehow missed the obvious fact that this would mean that trunk's assessment is invalid.

Not to mention the fact that the same trunks thought that base Gotenks would be a match for super boo. In the context of the story, trunks is just a kid and so he acts as a kid and says ridiculous things like a kid would. This is just common sense.

Did toriyama envision such a huge gap between ultimate Gohan and ssj3? Probably not though that's irrelevant since nobody can prove anything about toriyamas though process.

What's fact now is as of super, base Gohan is stronger than ssj3 Gotenks. Even with his base power multiplied a hundred times over, he is still weaker than boo arc ultimate Gohan.

Not really, no. You're just putting your own interpretation of the story before others. Where is it stated in the story that Trunks needs to be wrong again when he assesses Gohan's power? The answer is "probably nowhere", especially consideering you came to that conclusion starting from Super.

And do you realize you haven't answered my question? What makes your assessement that "Trunks is wrong" true and "Gotenks has be to same strength-wise" in Super all the same? Just as you made Gohan a hundred of times stronger as your premise couldn't I just make Gotenks in Super a hundred of times weaker?

"But it wasn't said"! Well, duh-uuh, neither was Gohan said to be over *100 times stronger. I'll ask again: you do realize these your interpretations, which are no better than anyone else's or not? And that if anything sound really improbable implementing that exact common sense you're flaunting? Using "common sense" do you really think Toriyama unarguably (since that's they keyword) wrote the Buu saga in which, say, Gohan is thousands of times stronger than Goku or in such an obscure fashion one'd need an episode whose plot is filler in nature and that was written by someone else twenty ears afterwards?

And by the way, just to reinstate my point...

Zamasus blasts being a threat to Ssb Goku even though he's weaker than ssj2 Goku is just one.

This is also circular reasoning, at best. Others peg Future Zamas as strong as SSB Goku -- and it's not like their estimations are exactly unwarranted, either. Or yet another display of confirmation bias on the many given arguments you try to tackle, more than anything else. The irony is that even I think Zamas wasn't really intended to be Blue tier, but it's beside the point.

[Bullza]

Don't forget that after Gohan achieves his Ultimate form again Piccolo does tell him that his training isn't over because he still thought he could go further or something like that.

I don't remember how much time passed between then and when Goku fought him, it can't have been too much so you'd think it couldn't have made a significant difference but the line is still there.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

If we are going to play this game then yes trunks was wrong since Gohan was more than a bit stronger than super boo as shown.

The difference is that Gotenks getting weaker isn't implied anywhere while the ssj forms have stated multipliers, so ultimate Gohan being stronger than a power that was over 100x stronger than Gotenks makes him over 100x stronger than Gotenks. This is common sense. Don't know why this is so hard to understand.
Was this toriyamas intention? Probably not though it can't be proved either way. This is what super did though so it is what is is regardless of how you feel.

[LowRyder2005]

If we are going to play this game then yes trunks was wrong since Gohan was more than a bit stronger than super boo as shown.

The difference is that Gotenks getting weaker isn't implied anywhere while the ssj forms have stated multipliers, so ultimate Gohan being stronger than a power that was over 100x stronger than Gotenks makes him over 100x stronger than Gotenks. This is common sense. Don't know why this is so hard to understand.
Was this toriyamas intention? Probably not though it can't be proved either way. This is what super did though so it is what is is regardless of how you feel.

So your train-of-thought is: "one isn't said, the other isn't as well, but one makes more sense than the other because it's common sense and that's what it is". I'll wait for a more persuasive reply (not like you could realistically come up with any better).