Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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PerhapsTheOtherOne
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:40 am

The way I see it, Complete SSB seems equivalent to a regular Kaioken multiplication (2 times one's power at a given moment) or when SSB Goku/Vegeta put all of their might into a single attack, like Goku's Full-Power Kamehameha or a greatly charged Final Flash from Vegeta.

However, I think regular SSB in the manga is definitely inferior to its counterpart in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheUltimateNinja » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:07 am

CSSB has to be a huge leap over regular SSB since Zamasu implies even Base Vegetto is better than SSB Goku and Vegeta.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 22, 2018 9:22 am

TheUltimateNinja wrote:CSSB has to be a huge leap over regular SSB since Zamasu implies even Base Vegetto is better than SSB Goku and Vegeta.
SS2 is a huge leap over SS in the same kind of vein, yet it's still only officially "twice as strong", numerically speaking.

As well, Potara Fusion is insanely good and seems to maintain its immense potential power no matter how strong fusees get, proportionately increasing dramatically whereas things like SSG and SSB don't.

In the interview with Toriyama and Toyotaro, Merged Zamasu wasn't planned to be a threat insurmountable by SSB, just a really tough one that was a bit beyond an individual SSB.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 10:37 am

Bullza wrote:Would Hit be more powerful in the anime or the manga?

Manga Hit seemed to have comparable power to Super Saiyan Blue Goku whereas Anime Hit was probably a weakling in comparison to be honest. Though Anime Hit did have the Cage of Time, a better ability than the Time Lag.
Manga Hit is definitely stronger. (for no particular reason but he is)

Manga Hit is on par with CSSB while Anime Hit is on par with normal SSB. To me it really is that simple

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:51 pm

Bullza wrote:But Super Saiyan Blue Goku competed with Merged Zamasu in the anime. It was when he used Kaioken that he one shot him with ease.

Also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was roughly on par with Toppo in the anime and in the manga. Though he actually seemed to have the upper hand in the anime whereas he lost in the manga.

And also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was on par with Golden Frieza in the anime and that could have been true in the manga as well.
"Competed" isn't really accurate.

He overpowered him with an attack that had a very high amplification, the biggest one he ever did in fact. When they fought hand to hand Goku was completely outclassed. Also one shot with ease? We don't what level of Kaioken he used against him and he just kick him. That could have been because he caught him off guard just like he did with regular Zamasu.

Putting initial Merged Zamasu only at Blue Kaioken level is really low balling him to be honest.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:03 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:But Super Saiyan Blue Goku competed with Merged Zamasu in the anime. It was when he used Kaioken that he one shot him with ease.

Also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was roughly on par with Toppo in the anime and in the manga. Though he actually seemed to have the upper hand in the anime whereas he lost in the manga.

And also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was on par with Golden Frieza in the anime and that could have been true in the manga as well.
"Competed" isn't really accurate.

He overpowered him with an attack that had a very high amplification, the biggest one he ever did in fact. When they fought hand to hand Goku was completely outclassed. Also one shot with ease? We don't what level of Kaioken he used against him and he just kick him. That could have been because he caught him off guard just like he did with regular Zamasu.

Putting initial Merged Zamasu only at Blue Kaioken level is really low balling him to be honest.
That's not even mentioning how his immortality likely would've made him underestimate his opponents and let his guard down; Vegito's opening attack shows that Future Zamasu's penchant for letting his guard down due to immortality confidence is still present in Merged Zamasu.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:06 pm

Kenneth La Torre wrote:Hit is on par with a CSSB Goku, who has power equal to merged zamasu (perhaps above now). So maybe manga hit has more raw power than anime hit.
Bullza wrote:Physically Manga Hit seems to probably be just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue. He wasn't in the anime but that version does have the greater abilities.
Yeah, it seems Anime Hit did focus on improving his Time Powers, while Manga Hit focused on Physical Strength
I like those differences in anime vs manga.
wolflonnie wrote:No, CSSB is clearly superior to SSB anime, because it can compete with Merged Zamasu's regular form. It should be as strong as SSBKKx10 or something like that.
But Goku was forced to use x20 against Jiren, which means Anime Goku was stronger at that point

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:15 pm

ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:But Super Saiyan Blue Goku competed with Merged Zamasu in the anime. It was when he used Kaioken that he one shot him with ease.

Also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was roughly on par with Toppo in the anime and in the manga. Though he actually seemed to have the upper hand in the anime whereas he lost in the manga.

And also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was on par with Golden Frieza in the anime and that could have been true in the manga as well.
"Competed" isn't really accurate.

He overpowered him with an attack that had a very high amplification, the biggest one he ever did in fact. When they fought hand to hand Goku was completely outclassed. Also one shot with ease? We don't what level of Kaioken he used against him and he just kick him. That could have been because he caught him off guard just like he did with regular Zamasu.

Putting initial Merged Zamasu only at Blue Kaioken level is really low balling him to be honest.
Sure, it may be low-balling but it doesn't seem to be wrong to put him around that level. The amplification only has to be higher than the Kamehameha amplification against Raditz; which would put the arm-breaking Kamehameha at 4 times at least. The Kaio-ken could still be assumed to just be 2x because it wasn't implied to be any higher, and just saying "Kaio-ken" usually only gives the 2x effect.
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:32 pm

Helios518 wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:
Bullza wrote:But Super Saiyan Blue Goku competed with Merged Zamasu in the anime. It was when he used Kaioken that he one shot him with ease.

Also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was roughly on par with Toppo in the anime and in the manga. Though he actually seemed to have the upper hand in the anime whereas he lost in the manga.

And also Super Saiyan Blue Goku was on par with Golden Frieza in the anime and that could have been true in the manga as well.
"Competed" isn't really accurate.

He overpowered him with an attack that had a very high amplification, the biggest one he ever did in fact. When they fought hand to hand Goku was completely outclassed. Also one shot with ease? We don't what level of Kaioken he used against him and he just kick him. That could have been because he caught him off guard just like he did with regular Zamasu.

Putting initial Merged Zamasu only at Blue Kaioken level is really low balling him to be honest.
Sure, it may be low-balling but it doesn't seem to be wrong to put him around that level. The amplification only has to be higher than the Kamehameha amplification against Raditz; which would put the arm-breaking Kamehameha at 4 times at least. The Kaio-ken could still be assumed to just be 2x because it wasn't implied to be any higher, and just saying "Kaio-ken" usually only gives the 2x effect.
Indeed.

It's when Goku DOESN'T say Kaioken but still uses the technique that the level he's using has to be called into question, like on Namek or against Jiren.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 3:32 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: Just because kaioken multiplies one’s power, it doesn’t mean every power-up follows the same pattern.
Well yes, but never have I stated or claimed so. Also I didn't say anything about the Kaioken technique as well. I was talking about the Ultimate or Potential Unleashed power up/transformation.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:15 pm

ZombieVito wrote:He overpowered him with an attack that had a very high amplification, the biggest one he ever did in fact. When they fought hand to hand Goku was completely outclassed. Also one shot with ease? We don't what level of Kaioken he used against him and he just kick him. That could have been because he caught him off guard just like he did with regular Zamasu.

Putting initial Merged Zamasu only at Blue Kaioken level is really low balling him to be honest.
Well if he was able to over power and hurt him and make Zamasu struggle, then he did compete with him. They weren't evenly matched like the manga but there wasn't​ a vast difference.

It would have just been Kaioken x2. On other occasions they've pretty much specified what it was, it was said exactly what it was when he was fighting Jiren. Also if Goku was that close enough to Zamasu that he could overpower him in the first place then him only needed x2 would make sense.

He wasn't really caught off guard either. He was right in his face, already being beaten so his guard would have been up. He wasn't blind sided like Cell was or anything.

Toppo was a match for this "Perfected" Super Saiyan Blue Goku in the manga. The anime said that Toppo was equal to Goku.

The manga may have gone that whole route with the Perfected thing to make the form even stronger than normal but I'd bet it was no different from the Super Saiyan Blue in the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:24 pm

Rally 07 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: Just because kaioken multiplies one’s power, it doesn’t mean every power-up follows the same pattern.
Well yes, but never have I stated or claimed so. Also I didn't say anything about the Kaioken technique as well. I was talking about the Ultimate or Potential Unleashed power up/transformation.
That’s what you said:
Rally 07 wrote: The Ultimate or Potential Unleashed transformation is a power up so it is indeed a multiplication of one's power.
Your wording suggests you think powering up means multiplying one’s power.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:39 pm

Double checking through the the manga and yeah I'm not seeing anything to suggest any notable difference.

Manga - Vegeta used his 100% Super Saiyan Blue power in bursts to stomp Black.
Anime - Vegeta just used his powered up Super Saiyan Blue to stomp Black.

Manga - Goku uses his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue to match Zamasu.
Anime - Goku just exerted a lot more Super Saiyan Blue power than usual to overpower Zamasu. Still technically matched him.

Manga - Goku uses his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and loses against Toppo but said had he not countered then he'd have lost so they were on par.
Anime - Beerus said that Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Toppo were equal. At least there Goku was winning.

Manga - Goku possibly fought an equal match up against an improved Frieza.
Anime - Goku did fight an equal match up against an improved Frieza.

Manga - Goku couldn't move Jiren as a Perfect Super Saiyan Blue. Was seemingly on the same level as Hit.
Anime - Goku could move Jiren as a Super Saiyan Blue. Significantly above Hit.

So yeah if anything Super Saiyan Blue in the anime is more impressive when you compare them. I don't know why people would think it's the equivalent of Kaioken x20. Perfected Super Saiyan is now the default Super Saiyan Blue like the anime.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:42 pm

Bullza wrote:I'd say Mastered Super Saiyan Blue is really just as strong as Super Saiyan Blue is in the anime.
I'm with you on that one. Fused Zamasu's initial form, Hit, Golden Frieza and Toppo all seem to suggest that Complete Blue and the anime's Blue are equivalent in power for all intents and purposes. There is some degree of narrative correlation between Kaioken Blue and Complete Blue, but power-wise I think Kaioken Blue is supposed to be the stronger of the two by far.

It also neatly explains why the gap between Blue and God seems a bit larger in the anime.
Last edited by Marlowe89 on Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:45 pm

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Helios518 wrote: Sure, it may be low-balling but it doesn't seem to be wrong to put him around that level. The amplification only has to be higher than the Kamehameha amplification against Raditz; which would put the arm-breaking Kamehameha at 4 times at least. The Kaio-ken could still be assumed to just be 2x because it wasn't implied to be any higher, and just saying "Kaio-ken" usually only gives the 2x effect.
Indeed.

It's when Goku DOESN'T say Kaioken but still uses the technique that the level he's using has to be called into question, like on Namek or against Jiren.
It's not a rule. There has been at least one time where Goku has only said Kaioken but had a much higher level than just 2.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Helios518 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 4:51 pm

Bullza wrote:Double checking through the the manga and yeah I'm not seeing anything to suggest any notable difference.

[spoiler]Manga - Vegeta used his 100% Super Saiyan Blue power in bursts to stomp Black.
Anime - Vegeta just used his powered up Super Saiyan Blue to stomp Black.

Manga - Goku uses his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue to match Zamasu.
Anime - Goku just exerted a lot more Super Saiyan Blue power than usual to overpower Zamasu. Still technically matched him.

Manga - Goku uses his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and loses against Toppo but said had he not countered then he'd have lost so they were on par.
Anime - Beerus said that Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Toppo were equal. At least there Goku was winning.

Manga - Goku possibly fought an equal match up against an improved Frieza.
Anime - Goku did fight an equal match up against an improved Frieza.

Manga - Goku couldn't move Jiren as a Perfect Super Saiyan Blue. Was seemingly on the same level as Hit.
Anime - Goku could move Jiren as a Super Saiyan Blue. Significantly above Hit.[/spoiler]

So yeah if anything Super Saiyan Blue in the anime is more impressive when you compare them. I don't know why people would think it's the equivalent of Kaioken x20. Perfected Super Saiyan is now the default Super Saiyan Blue like the anime.
This goes in-line with how the manga tends to have their characters (I.E: Hit, Black, Merged Zamasu) be much less impressive then their anime counterpart. Also it would make sense because in the manga, the gap between SSJG and Incomplete SSJB is much smaller than SSJG is with anime SSJB, but manga SSJB only just became huge jump like anime SSJB. when it got perfected. For example: something like this.

SSJG: 1
Incomplete SSJB: 10
Perfected SSJB: 50
Anime SSJB: 50
Why I use "Geran" instead of "Jiren"

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Issei189 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 5:01 pm

Bullza wrote:Double checking through the the manga and yeah I'm not seeing anything to suggest any notable difference.

Manga - Vegeta used his 100% Super Saiyan Blue power in bursts to stomp Black.
Anime - Vegeta just used his powered up Super Saiyan Blue to stomp Black.

Manga - Goku uses his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue to match Zamasu.
Anime - Goku just exerted a lot more Super Saiyan Blue power than usual to overpower Zamasu. Still technically matched him.

Manga - Goku uses his Perfected Super Saiyan Blue and loses against Toppo but said had he not countered then he'd have lost so they were on par.
Anime - Beerus said that Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Toppo were equal. At least there Goku was winning.

Manga - Goku possibly fought an equal match up against an improved Frieza.
Anime - Goku did fight an equal match up against an improved Frieza.

Manga - Goku couldn't move Jiren as a Perfect Super Saiyan Blue. Was seemingly on the same level as Hit.
Anime - Goku could move Jiren as a Super Saiyan Blue. Significantly above Hit.

So yeah if anything Super Saiyan Blue in the anime is more impressive when you compare them. I don't know why people would think it's the equivalent of Kaioken x20. Perfected Super Saiyan is now the default Super Saiyan Blue like the anime.
Isn't Non-God Anime Toppo suppose to be at some level of KK in his full power ? He started to power up during the end of their match and Goku in response turned on KK. Both of them keeping kept powering up until the Grand Priest stopped them and Yeah, Vegeta was on par with regular Toppo during the TOP, but he was holding back since we see Toppo power-up with that red aura against Andriod 17 when he was ready to end the fight.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Rally 07 » Sun Apr 22, 2018 8:11 pm

Hugo Boss wrote: That’s what you said:
Rally 07 wrote: The Ultimate or Potential Unleashed transformation is a power up so it is indeed a multiplication of one's power.
Your wording suggests you think powering up means multiplying one’s power.
Um yes, powering up in Dragon Ball is raising or increasing one's power. And especially with transformations or techniques that multiply one's power such as the Kaioken technique. Unless you want to claim transformations or power ups are not some sort of multiplier like cough* ThePinWheel.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by JazzMazz » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:01 am

Rally 07 wrote:
Hugo Boss wrote: That’s what you said:
Rally 07 wrote: The Ultimate or Potential Unleashed transformation is a power up so it is indeed a multiplication of one's power.
Your wording suggests you think powering up means multiplying one’s power.
Um yes, powering up in Dragon Ball is raising or increasing one's power. And especially with transformations or techniques that multiply one's power such as the Kaioken technique. Unless you want to claim transformations or power ups are not some sort of multiplier like cough* ThePinWheel.
I think this comment shows more your complete misunderstand of Pinwheel's point of view, than the actual point of view that he presented in the video. Also, nothing he really said in his video was wrong.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Nevaeh » Mon Apr 23, 2018 3:04 am

ZombieVito wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:
Helios518 wrote: Sure, it may be low-balling but it doesn't seem to be wrong to put him around that level. The amplification only has to be higher than the Kamehameha amplification against Raditz; which would put the arm-breaking Kamehameha at 4 times at least. The Kaio-ken could still be assumed to just be 2x because it wasn't implied to be any higher, and just saying "Kaio-ken" usually only gives the 2x effect.
Indeed.

It's when Goku DOESN'T say Kaioken but still uses the technique that the level he's using has to be called into question, like on Namek or against Jiren.
It's not a rule. There has been at least one time where Goku has only said Kaioken but had a much higher level than just 2.
Good example of this is when he and Vegeta team up against Jiren

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