Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[IndieBooToo]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

I would say that Dyspo is simply holding back, after all, Freeza base is not so powerful (in the next episode Dyspo is with Aura)

In EP 121, Freeza himself said he was weaker than Goku SSG and so Aniraza was chasing him first.

About Hit, it depends what era SSj Blue you're talking about. I believe he was at least as strong or stronger initially than SSj Blue Goku and Vegeta from the RoF arc at the very least. Nothing has changed, people can still get stronger through training, no such thing as transformation-based tiers exist anymore (they barely ever have, chronological eras were always more accurate).

Well, I guess that's relative. We would need to know the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta SSB from RoF to Goku and Vegeta SSB from the Champa tournament.

I would not say that Goku SSB in the tournament was much stronger than Hitto, but there was a considerable and noticeable difference. He could clearly dominate the battle and inflict damage on Hitto, forcing him to '' evolve ''

Or maybe Dyspo is that weak and his only saving grace is his speed.

Also Frieza never said any of what you claimed he did.

[Hakaishin Liquir]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

The same explanation for most other nonsensical moments in this show: Rule of Cool.

[ChiefWamsutta]

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

[PushoverMediaCritic]

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

I'd say maybe 2-3 times as strong.

Also, Maji Kayo holding down SS1 Goku and Dyspo does not mean that Dyspo is as strong as SS1 Goku. If anything, Maji Kayo was having an easier time with Goku than Dyspo. Dyspo was able to damage his body while Goku was just feebly struggling while Maji Kayo effortlessly held him down. We've also only ever seen Maji Kayo be blown apart by godly attacks: Goku turning SSB, Dyspo blasting, kicking, and blasting him again, and Jiren punching him. It seems an easier assumption to make that Maji Kayo is just between SSG and SSB.

[Hugo Boss]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

Smashing through boulders is a weak attack in comparison to superfast punches, specially against someone who has a tough body.

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

We will have to wait until the transformation is complete, but right now I guess it’s less effective than whatever Goku and Vegeta are doing to Jiren in their limit-breaker forms.

[TheSaiyanGod]

So does anyone have a good explanation as to why Dyspo can hurt Hit but not Frieza?

I would say that Dyspo is simply holding back, after all, Freeza base is not so powerful (in the next episode Dyspo is with Aura)

In EP 121, Freeza himself said he was weaker than Goku SSG and so Aniraza was chasing him first.

About Hit, it depends what era SSj Blue you're talking about. I believe he was at least as strong or stronger initially than SSj Blue Goku and Vegeta from the RoF arc at the very least. Nothing has changed, people can still get stronger through training, no such thing as transformation-based tiers exist anymore (they barely ever have, chronological eras were always more accurate).

Well, I guess that's relative. We would need to know the difference in power between Goku and Vegeta SSB from RoF to Goku and Vegeta SSB from the Champa tournament.

I would not say that Goku SSB in the tournament was much stronger than Hitto, but there was a considerable and noticeable difference. He could clearly dominate the battle and inflict damage on Hitto, forcing him to '' evolve ''

Or maybe Dyspo is that weak and his only saving grace is his speed.

Also Frieza never said any of what you claimed he did.

Goku SSG and Freeza were together, Aniraza tried to catch one of the two and soon after he goes to Freeza.
And then, Freeza says that Aniraza was going after him because he believed he was weaker (remembering, Goku SSG was on his side).

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Goku SSG also says that base Freeza's kick has barely made tickles

[spoiler][/spoiler]

[wolflonnie]

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

Perhaps as strong, or a bit stronger. I feel that UI is, in regards of power, just a "potential unlock".

[Bullza]

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

Several times. The Spirit Bomb would be more powerful than Kaioken x20. Super Saiyan Kefla was as strong as the Spirit Bomb. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be twice as strong as that. Ultra Instinct Goku was stronger than that.

Depends how the Spirit Bomb compares to Kaioken x20 really.

[Doctor.]

Not possible. You can't say Dyspo is weak if his hits managed to damage Hit. Freeza's base is just super strong which, in turn, means he's absolutely not at base Saiyan tier, which means their strength got retconned as it should be incredibly obvious by this point.

So Sorbet is god tier now?

The fact is that Dyspo was so fast that Hit can't react in time to block and that's why he can't put a defense.

Yes, and Dyspo is still as fast now and Freeza can't react in time to block and put up a defense either and he's STILL unharmed.

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

100x is what's said in the OP, so I assume 100x SSB.

[ChiefWamsutta]

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

I'd say maybe 2-3 times as strong.

Yeah, I was going to say between 2 and 5 times stronger than SSB KKx20.

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

We will have to wait until the transformation is complete, but right now I guess it’s less effective than whatever Goku and Vegeta are doing to Jiren in their limit-breaker forms.

I'm not really sure what you mean ... UI even now is stronger than what Goku and Vegeta used in Ep. 123, I believe,

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

Perhaps as strong, or a bit stronger. I feel that UI is, in regards of power, just a "potential unlock".

I got the feeling it was 2x - 5x stronger, but I know what you mean about a "potential unlock".

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

Several times. The Spirit Bomb would be more powerful than Kaioken x20. Super Saiyan Kefla was as strong as the Spirit Bomb. Super Saiyan 2 Kefla would be twice as strong as that. Ultra Instinct Goku was stronger than that.

Depends how the Spirit Bomb compares to Kaioken x20 really.

As, I said to others. I had the feeling of 2x - 5x stronger.

How much stronger do people think is Ultra Instinct than SSBlue Kaioken x20?

100x is what's said in the OP, so I assume 100x SSB.

Where did you get this 100x SSB = UI's power? Said in the OP? I am not sure I understand.

[Doctor.]

Where did you get this 100x SSB = UI's power? Said in the OP? I am not sure I understand.

The opening references a 100x power-up.

"Seriously... 100 times! Fierce survival. Let's go shatter my limits so we can go full power"

[ChiefWamsutta]

Where did you get this 100x SSB = UI's power? Said in the OP? I am not sure I understand.

The opening references a 100x power-up.

"Seriously... 100 times! Fierce survival. Let's go shatter my limits so we can go full power"

LMFAO. I am being so stupid right now. Are you talking about Limit Breaker x Survivor?

[Doctor.]

Where did you get this 100x SSB = UI's power? Said in the OP? I am not sure I understand.

The opening references a 100x power-up.

"Seriously... 100 times! Fierce survival. Let's go shatter my limits so we can go full power"

LMFAO. I am being so stupid right now. Are you talking about Limit Breaker x Survivor?

Yes, the opening.

[Onibaku]

The opening references a 100x power-up.

"Seriously... 100 times! Fierce survival. Let's go shatter my limits so we can go full power"

LMFAO. I am being so stupid right now. Are you talking about Limit Breaker x Survivor?

Yes, the opening.

Eh, you normally don't trust the opening's lyrics for things like these.

[Doctor.]

LMFAO. I am being so stupid right now. Are you talking about Limit Breaker x Survivor?

Yes, the opening.

Eh, you normally don't trust the opening's lyrics for things like these.

Super's powerscalling is arbitrary. The characters are strong as they need to be. The OP's 100x line is the first objective information given about a power-up in the show so I'll take it.

[TheUltimateNinja]

100x seems about right, considering it's superior to Kaioken x20 + a Genki Dama far superior to Kaioken x20.

Also, Goku and Vegeta seem to have surpassed TV Special UI Goku since Jiren is now revealing some of his real power.

[Helios518]

Yes, the opening.

Eh, you normally don't trust the opening's lyrics for things like these.

Super's powerscalling is arbitrary. The characters are strong as they need to be. The OP's 100x line is the first objective information given about a power-up in the show so I'll take it.

Except the the OP's lyrics has little to no involvement to do with the story. Even if you were going to use it story wise, it's possible that it's could 100x previous form which is rn SSJBKKx20.

[Doctor.]

Eh, you normally don't trust the opening's lyrics for things like these.

Super's powerscalling is arbitrary. The characters are strong as they need to be. The OP's 100x line is the first objective information given about a power-up in the show so I'll take it.

Except the the OP's lyrics has little to no involvement to do with the story. Even if you were going to use it story wise, it's possible that it's could 100x previous form which is rn SSJBKKx20.

The OP lyrics seem pretty in-tune with the arc's events. They were clearly written with the ToP in mind and it's clear that "limit breaker" and "100x" references UI.

Kaioken is a technique, not a transformation. Regardless, feel free to interpret it as such.

Scaling from the series also gives credence to it being 100x. Kefla was stronger than the SSBx20 Genkidama as a Super Saiyan, and SS2 is a 2x multiplier on top of that (provided that it's not higher because of Berserker influence).

[ekrolo2]

The OP lyrics seem pretty in-tune with the arc's events. They were clearly written with the ToP in mind and it's clear that "limit breaker" and "100x" references UI.

Kaioken is a technique, not a transformation. Regardless, feel free to interpret it as such.

Scaling from the series also gives credence to it being 100x. Kefla was stronger than the SSBx20 Genkidama as a Super Saiyan, and SS2 is a 2x multiplier on top of that (provided that it's not higher because of Berserker influence).

Now only we knew how strong SSGod was in relation to the gold forms so we could actually start applying the various post-God multipliers into the mix

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I personally don't go with Ultra Instinct having any kind of "raw power advantage" over Goku's other forms.

It goes against the core idea of how the Ultra Instinct is supposed to work.

Instead, I think it's simply a matter of how well one's Ki can be channeled as his/her body moves on its own to defend/dodge/attack. Because Goku couldn't properly channel the Ultra Instinct in his regular attacks, he had to resort to charging up a Kamehameha, an attack with a lot of kinetic energy that could be powered up immensely, to blow Kefla off the tournament stage.

Ultra Instinct is all about being a better fighter, not necessarily a stronger one.