Lord Beerus wrote:
I just think Future Trunks pulled a Vegeta from Battle Of Gods and got a temporary rage boost that lasted for the entire episode and allowed him to hang with the likes of SSJR Goku Black, Zamasu and SSJB Goku.
Feels like something the show would comment on if it happened, and even Vegeta's BoG one was treated as a prolongued burst of anger, 57 has Trunks stop and talk or just launch into a mandatory fight stare down.
Well, Future Trunks' aura flared up immensely and Goku Black had a look of shock on his face when it happened. Indicating that Future Trunks power spontaneously spiked immensely in a fit of anger (much like what happened with Gohan, Goku and Vegeta in the past). So I think scenario like that doesn't really need a comment when the show had already demonstrated that something like can happen with Saiyans specifically. In fact, it happens again in a later episode (Episode 61) with SSJB Goku flying into a fit of rage, over discovering what the fate of alternate timeline Chi Chi and Goten at the hand of Zamasu/Goku Black, and his power spiking (temporarily) because of it.
Auras spike suddenly quite often, Goku does it all the time in the Beerus fight and he's not rage booating.
There's also the fact both Goku and Vegeta's rage outs were short fierce affairs whereas Trunks would need to keep going on and on even when he's clearly calm or shocked.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
SaiyanSoul wrote:We do not know that Jiren is stronger than Beerus, all we know is that Jiren is around the level of a God of Destruction and that he's stronger in terms of "battle power" than Belmond.
I’m almost sure I saw “combat skill”, not battle power. Can someone confirm it?
dragon boss z wrote:My current tier list (not set in stone and I may change things on a whim)
Zenos
Grand Priest
Angels
GoD, Jiren, UI Goku, SSB Vegito
Merged Zamsu, KKx20 Goku
SSB Goku/Vegeta, Golden Fireza, Toppo, SSR Black, Hit, ssj Kefla, base Vegito
SSG Goku, base Kefla, base Black (could be in the tier below)
Ultimate Gohan, Berserk Kale, ssj3 Goku
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta
ssj Goku/Vegeta, 100% Frieza
base Goku/Vegeta, ssj2 Caulifla, ssj2 Cabba, final form Frieza, super Ribrianne
Buu, ssj Caulifla, ssj Cabba, Bergamo, Ribrianne, 17 (could be higher), Dyspo (could be higher due to speed), Magetta (durability could put him higher)
final form Frost, Piccolo, first form Frieza, mid tier pride troopers
18, base Gohan, base Caulifla, base Cabba, U6 Namekians, Botamo, Lavender, Basil, low tier pride troopers
Krillin, Tien, Roshi, U9/10 fodder
I think this list is pretty accurate to what the show is trying to show us, but could change in the near future.
Majinwarman So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
ekrolo2 wrote:
Feels like something the show would comment on if it happened, and even Vegeta's BoG one was treated as a prolongued burst of anger, 57 has Trunks stop and talk or just launch into a mandatory fight stare down.
Well, Future Trunks' aura flared up immensely and Goku Black had a look of shock on his face when it happened. Indicating that Future Trunks power spontaneously spiked immensely in a fit of anger (much like what happened with Gohan, Goku and Vegeta in the past). So I think scenario like that doesn't really need a comment when the show had already demonstrated that something like can happen with Saiyans specifically. In fact, it happens again in a later episode (Episode 61) with SSJB Goku flying into a fit of rage, over discovering what the fate of alternate timeline Chi Chi and Goten at the hand of Zamasu/Goku Black, and his power spiking (temporarily) because of it.
Auras spike suddenly quite often, Goku does it all the time in the Beerus fight and he's not rage booating.
There's also the fact both Goku and Vegeta's rage outs were short fierce affairs whereas Trunks would need to keep going on and on even when he's clearly calm or shocked.
So what? All we know about the "rage boost" trait is that it provides a temporary explosive boost in power for any given Saiyan under extreme or unique circumstances of emotional distress. At this point we're just going to be arguing about the pointless semantics for what constitutes as "temporary". It not universally the same for every Saiyan. There's no rule book dictating that this is specifically how long any given "rage boost" occur for. Future Trunks got angry, his power spiked for five minutes then it cooled right back down to normal after that episode, as he would get his ass kicked in every battle afterward against Goku Black and/or Zamasu until he obtained Super Saiyan Rage.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Lord Beerus wrote:
Well, Future Trunks' aura flared up immensely and Goku Black had a look of shock on his face when it happened. Indicating that Future Trunks power spontaneously spiked immensely in a fit of anger (much like what happened with Gohan, Goku and Vegeta in the past). So I think scenario like that doesn't really need a comment when the show had already demonstrated that something like can happen with Saiyans specifically. In fact, it happens again in a later episode (Episode 61) with SSJB Goku flying into a fit of rage, over discovering what the fate of alternate timeline Chi Chi and Goten at the hand of Zamasu/Goku Black, and his power spiking (temporarily) because of it.
Auras spike suddenly quite often, Goku does it all the time in the Beerus fight and he's not rage booating.
There's also the fact both Goku and Vegeta's rage outs were short fierce affairs whereas Trunks would need to keep going on and on even when he's clearly calm or shocked.
So what? All we know about the "rage boost" trait is that it provides a temporary explosive boost in power for any given Saiyan under extreme or unique circumstances of emotional distress. At this point we're just going to be arguing about the pointless semantics for what constitutes as "temporary". It not universally the same for every Saiyan. There's no rule book dictating that this is specifically how long any given "rage boost" occur for. Future Trunks got angry, his power spiked for five minutes then it cooled right back down to normal after that episode, as he would get his ass kicked in every battle afterward against Goku Black and/or Zamasu until he obtained Super Saiyan Rage.
We can gleam some stuff from other events and all rage boosts are short spurs of the moment, the only prolongued one is when Gohan got SS2 and that probably has more to do with SS2 then a generic rage boost.
I'll just call 57 what it is: random bullshit made to look cool. Like how Ribrianne is fodder to Base Saiyan's but she didn't get stomped like a punk when she fought SS1 Vegeta or 17. Unless you're gonna seriously consider the possibility Vegeta made his SS form weaker then his max Base strength while fighting her.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.
How the Black Arc Should End (by Lightbing!):
Spoiler:
Absolute Zamasu(my name for their fusion) wins. He fulfils his utopia and dwells in his loneliness(x amount of time for this to happen). He starts to doubt of his achievements, Goku's body influences him to seek out challenges but there's nothing. Perfection becomes a curse. Absolute Zamasu starts to dread his existence and presents himself to the Omni-King, detailing on his actions.
Using his powers the Omni-King restores everything to the moment before Goku and Vegeta perish, humanity's last barrier. Zamasu concedes. He ask for forgiveness(mainly to Goku, Gowasu and Trunks) and understands that his justice isn't justice at all. He asks for judgement and the Omni-King delivers.
Trunks is forced never to travel in time ever again, all the time-machines are destroyed.
ekrolo2 wrote:
Auras spike suddenly quite often, Goku does it all the time in the Beerus fight and he's not rage booating.
There's also the fact both Goku and Vegeta's rage outs were short fierce affairs whereas Trunks would need to keep going on and on even when he's clearly calm or shocked.
So what? All we know about the "rage boost" trait is that it provides a temporary explosive boost in power for any given Saiyan under extreme or unique circumstances of emotional distress. At this point we're just going to be arguing about the pointless semantics for what constitutes as "temporary". It not universally the same for every Saiyan. There's no rule book dictating that this is specifically how long any given "rage boost" occur for. Future Trunks got angry, his power spiked for five minutes then it cooled right back down to normal after that episode, as he would get his ass kicked in every battle afterward against Goku Black and/or Zamasu until he obtained Super Saiyan Rage.
We can gleam some stuff from other events and all rage boosts are short spurs of the moment, the only prolongued one is when Gohan got SS2 and that probably has more to do with SS2 then a generic rage boost.
I'll just call 57 what it is: random bullshit made to look cool. Like how Ribrianne is fodder to Base Saiyan's but she didn't get stomped like a punk when she fought SS1 Vegeta or 17. Unless you're gonna seriously consider the possibility Vegeta made his SS form weaker then his max Base strength while fighting her.
"random bullshit made to look cool" is Dragon Ball's modus operandi.
I will agree that Ribrianne's strength is very... weird. To say the least. I think Ribrianne started off strong, but as the tournament progressed, and with her fighting progressively stronger opponent one after the other (first SSJ Vegeta and then Android 17) she just burned though her power the more she fought to the point that she eventually became much weaker by the time she fought Base Goku. Hence why the Hakaishin and other fighters of Universe 2 had to share their "love" to power her up so she could put up more of fight or at least longer in the tournament. And she when burned through that, she barely had anything left in the tank and was easy pickings for Base Vegeta later on.
Spoiler:
Akira Toriyama wrote:My policy is to try and forget things once they’re over. Since if I don’t discard the old and focus on what’s new, I’ll overload my brain capacity. I still haven’t lived down going, “Who the heck is Tao Pai-pai?” that one time I was talking with Ei’ichiro Oda-kun. But the fact that there are still people reading the series after all this time… All I can say is; “thank you.” Really, that’s all.
Akira Toriyama wrote:Drawing Dragon Ball again reminded me of two things--how much I love it, and how much I never want to do it again.
Kunzait_83 wrote:And if you're upset because all this new material completely invalidates the tabletop RPG rulebook-sized statistical system and flowchart for the characters' "canonical Power Levels" that you'd been working on painstakingly for the last bunch of years now... well I don't think there's a kind, non-blunt way of saying this, but that's 100% entirely your own misguided fault for buying so deeply into all this nonsensical garbage in the first place. And that you also have IMMENSELY skewed and comically backwards priorities in what you think is most important and needed to make a good Dragon Ball story.
Zephyr wrote:Goodness, they wrote idiotic drivel in a children's cartoon meant to advertise toys!? Again!? For the ninetieth episode in a row!? Somebody stop the presses! We have to voice our concern over these Super important issues!
Kamiccolo9 wrote:Fair enough, I concede. Sean Schemmel probably has some kind of hidden talent. Maybe he is an expert at Minesweeper. You're right; calling him "talentless" wasn't fair.
Michsi wrote: ↑Mon Jul 04, 2022 11:29 amIn Super Piccolo got yelled off the stage by Vegeta in the U6 Tournament arc and lost to Jiminy Cricket in the ToP , he deserved 15 new transformations with his theme song played by Metallica in the background.
Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
I believed it until Goku used Super Saiyan against Frost. Besides being easier for the audience to tell when a Saiyan is powered-up, a super strong base doesn’t sell much. So, they could have abandoned it in favor of merchandise. Just a thought.
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
I don't think it was a thing in Super no. Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than ever in Base form by the Resurrection F saga but had never actually experienced God Ki until he was thrown into the other dimension.
Goku's Base form was as strong though so he probably had some God Ki involved that boosted him up permanently.
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
Never believed in it since Super went out of its way to say that base form Goku didn't have god ki in Battle of Gods and Resurrection 'F' despite getting massively stronger from absorbing Super Saiyan God and then his training with Whis. So to me, Goku and Vegeta's base forms have always just been super powerful.
And Super Saiyan 3 isn't a level so him fighting a Super Saiyan 3 in base form would depend on the other person's base form.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.
I've been thinking. IN the manga completed ssb vegeta should be > Completed ssb goku.
Reasons:
1. Vegeta in the goku black arc trained in time chamber and got stronger than goku but he still leaked some energy via the ssg to ssb switch while goku was just able to contain his blue aura totally to prevent leakage. Vegeta should still have a stronger 100% blue than goku
2. In chapter 27 we find out vegeta has been training very hard with whis and only stops near the very end of bulma pregnancy whereas goku admits he was slacking off from training because he was farming.
dragon boss z wrote:My current tier list (not set in stone and I may change things on a whim)
Zenos
Grand Priest
Angels
GoD, Jiren, UI Goku, SSB Vegito
Merged Zamsu, KKx20 Goku
SSB Goku/Vegeta, Golden Fireza, Toppo, SSR Black, Hit, ssj Kefla, base Vegito
SSG Goku, base Kefla, base Black (could be in the tier below)
Ultimate Gohan, Berserk Kale, ssj3 Goku
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta
ssj Goku/Vegeta, 100% Frieza
base Goku/Vegeta, ssj2 Caulifla, ssj2 Cabba, final form Frieza, super Ribrianne
Buu, ssj Caulifla, ssj Cabba, Bergamo, Ribrianne, 17 (could be higher), Dyspo (could be higher due to speed), Magetta (durability could put him higher)
final form Frost, Piccolo, first form Frieza, mid tier pride troopers
18, base Gohan, base Caulifla, base Cabba, U6 Namekians, Botamo, Lavender, Basil, low tier pride troopers
Krillin, Tien, Roshi, U9/10 fodder
I think this list is pretty accurate to what the show is trying to show us, but could change in the near future.
No trunks in here at all. Where is the dreaded SSJ2 Rage Spirit Sword out his ass Trunks? Oh and I'm pretty sure base kefla > SSG Goku... SSG Goku was seriously struggling. SSJ Blue Goku was also pushed back by SSJ Kefla enough to go KK. KKx20 > SSJ Kefla = KK SSB-Goku > SSB Goku = Base Kefla > SSG Goku
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
Freeza transforming into his Golden form to tank SS2 Cabba's attack pretty much killed SbG.
dragon boss z wrote:My current tier list (not set in stone and I may change things on a whim)
[spoiler]Zenos
Grand Priest
Angels
GoD, Jiren, UI Goku, SSB Vegito
Merged Zamsu, KKx20 Goku
SSB Goku/Vegeta, Golden Fireza, Toppo, SSR Black, Hit, ssj Kefla, base Vegito
SSG Goku, base Kefla, base Black (could be in the tier below)
Ultimate Gohan, Berserk Kale, ssj3 Goku
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta
ssj Goku/Vegeta, 100% Frieza
base Goku/Vegeta, ssj2 Caulifla, ssj2 Cabba, final form Frieza, super Ribrianne
Buu, ssj Caulifla, ssj Cabba, Bergamo, Ribrianne, 17 (could be higher), Dyspo (could be higher due to speed), Magetta (durability could put him higher)
final form Frost, Piccolo, first form Frieza, mid tier pride troopers
18, base Gohan, base Caulifla, base Cabba, U6 Namekians, Botamo, Lavender, Basil, low tier pride troopers
Krillin, Tien, Roshi, U9/10 fodder[/spoiler]
I think this list is pretty accurate to what the show is trying to show us, but could change in the near future.
No trunks in here at all. Where is the dreaded SSJ2 Rage Spirit Sword out his ass Trunks? Oh and I'm pretty sure base kefla > SSG Goku... SSG Goku was seriously struggling. SSJ Blue Goku was also pushed back by SSJ Kefla enough to go KK. KKx20 > SSJ Kefla = KK SSB-Goku > SSB Goku = Base Kefla > SSG Goku
I forgot Trunks, and Goku was tired when fighting Kefla. Also this is more of a rough tier list, if they are in the same tier one can still be stronger than the other.
So does this mean Base Vegito, when he appeared in the Future Trunks saga would be somewhere around as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku then too?
Naturally it would mean Base Vegito would be far stronger than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito back in the Battle of Gods saga. Just like how the current Base Goku should be above his old Super Saiyan 3 strength too.
Bullza wrote:So does this mean Base Vegito, when he appeared in the Future Trunks saga would be somewhere around as strong as Super Saiyan God Goku then too?
Naturally it would mean Base Vegito would be far stronger than a hypothetical Super Saiyan 3 Vegito back in the Battle of Gods saga. Just like how the current Base Goku should be above his old Super Saiyan 3 strength too.
Base Vegito imo from FT arcs would have been >= SSB Goku
dragon boss z wrote:My current tier list (not set in stone and I may change things on a whim)
Zenos
Grand Priest
Angels
GoD, Jiren, UI Goku, SSB Vegito
Merged Zamsu, KKx20 Goku
SSB Goku/Vegeta, Golden Fireza, Toppo, SSR Black, Hit, ssj Kefla, base Vegito
SSG Goku, base Kefla, base Black (could be in the tier below)
Ultimate Gohan, Berserk Kale, ssj3 Goku
ssj2 Goku/Vegeta
ssj Goku/Vegeta, 100% Frieza
base Goku/Vegeta, ssj2 Caulifla, ssj2 Cabba, final form Frieza, super Ribrianne
Buu, ssj Caulifla, ssj Cabba, Bergamo, Ribrianne, 17 (could be higher), Dyspo (could be higher due to speed), Magetta (durability could put him higher)
final form Frost, Piccolo, first form Frieza, mid tier pride troopers
18, base Gohan, base Caulifla, base Cabba, U6 Namekians, Botamo, Lavender, Basil, low tier pride troopers
Krillin, Tien, Roshi, U9/10 fodder
I think this list is pretty accurate to what the show is trying to show us, but could change in the near future.
No trunks in here at all. Where is the dreaded SSJ2 Rage Spirit Sword out his ass Trunks? Oh and I'm pretty sure base kefla > SSG Goku... SSG Goku was seriously struggling. SSJ Blue Goku was also pushed back by SSJ Kefla enough to go KK. KKx20 > SSJ Kefla = KK SSB-Goku > SSB Goku = Base Kefla > SSG Goku
Champa made it clear that Kefla only had a chance against SSB because Goku was tired.
And even tired, Goku showed himself on the same level as Kefla (showing that in 100% of power he is considerably superior to Saiyan of U6).
He only activated the Kaioken because his remaining Blue power would not be enough to defeat Kefla (only to defeat him because he could match her power). And with a '' simple '' power up of 2x he only needed a punch to leave Kefla on the ground.
Goku SSB is arguably stronger than Kefla SSJ Berserker (at least for now). She only hit Goku because he was caught off guard and Goku only came back the normal form because he did not have the energy.
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
I don't think it was a thing in Super no. Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than ever in Base form by the Resurrection F saga but had never actually experienced God Ki until he was thrown into the other dimension.
Goku's Base form was as strong though so he probably had some God Ki involved that boosted him up permanently.
I believe Saiyan Beyond God was not intended to be part of DBSuper, and was not intended to exist, or intended for the general audience to believe it was real.
However, based on the writing, we still have the outlier of Goku's fight with Beerus in Episode 14. After he lost SSGod, he had a SS1-looking form at the level of SSGod, and he had a Base-looking form at the level of SSGod.
We know NOW that SS1 Goku is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. His Base is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. This doesn't excuse the continuity issue though. I wish they just had Goku go back to SS1 against Beerus and he couldn't touch Beerus. Then he taps into SSGod again and can use it from then on (the instances of a super strong Base that we thought were SBG would be SSGod).
In order to keep continuity I have said before that this powerful SS1 from Ep. 14 is SSBlue, but without the ki control Goku learns from Whis. The powerful instances of Goku's Base in DBS would be SSGod, but without the ki control. The reason we saw SSBlue before SSGod again would be explained by Goku having more practice with ki control in SS1 because of the Cell Saga SS1 Grade 4. It came more naturally to him to have perfect ki control for SSBlue.
majinwarman wrote:
I think this list is pretty accurate to what the show is trying to show us, but could change in the near future.
No trunks in here at all. Where is the dreaded SSJ2 Rage Spirit Sword out his ass Trunks? Oh and I'm pretty sure base kefla > SSG Goku... SSG Goku was seriously struggling. SSJ Blue Goku was also pushed back by SSJ Kefla enough to go KK. KKx20 > SSJ Kefla = KK SSB-Goku > SSB Goku = Base Kefla > SSG Goku
Champa made it clear that Kefla only had a chance against SSB because Goku was tired.
And even tired, Goku showed himself on the same level as Kefla (showing that in 100% of power he is considerably superior to Saiyan of U6).
He only activated the Kaioken because his remaining Blue power would not be enough to defeat Kefla (only to defeat him because he could match her power). And with a '' simple '' power up of 2x he only needed a punch to leave Kefla on the ground.
Goku SSB is arguably stronger than Kefla SSJ Berserker (at least for now). She only hit Goku because he was caught off guard and Goku only came back the normal form because he did not have the energy.
I think you are right about Kefla's power. She just outlasted Goku than really just beat him outright.
Majinwarman So I'm 'evil', huh? Interesting."
A world without Dragon Ball is just meh.
Bulma's Foot Masseur wrote:Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?
Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?
I don't think it was a thing in Super no. Vegeta was supposed to be stronger than ever in Base form by the Resurrection F saga but had never actually experienced God Ki until he was thrown into the other dimension.
Goku's Base form was as strong though so he probably had some God Ki involved that boosted him up permanently.
I believe Saiyan Beyond God was not intended to be part of DBSuper, and was not intended to exist, or intended for the general audience to believe it was real.
However, based on the writing, we still have the outlier of Goku's fight with Beerus in Episode 14. After he lost SSGod, he had a SS1-looking form at the level of SSGod, and he had a Base-looking form at the level of SSGod.
We know NOW that SS1 Goku is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. His Base is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. This doesn't excuse the continuity issue though. I wish they just had Goku go back to SS1 against Beerus and he couldn't touch Beerus. Then he taps into SSGod again and can use it from then on (the instances of a super strong Base that we thought were SBG would be SSGod).
In order to keep continuity I have said before that this powerful SS1 from Ep. 14 is SSBlue, but without the ki control Goku learns from Whis. The powerful instances of Goku's Base in DBS would be SSGod, but without the ki control. The reason we saw SSBlue before SSGod again would be explained by Goku having more practice with ki control in SS1 because of the Cell Saga SS1 Grade 4. It came more naturally to him to have perfect ki control for SSBlue.
Goku definitely got stronger from the ritual, but I will agree he didn't keep all of the power. I think he may of been able to access the same power he used on Beerus if he went ssj3, which would mean his max power was equal to initial SSG and it would also mean his base is 400x weaker than SSG so this could add up. Goku and Vegeta's base also seem to be portrayed as above Z ssj3 level, at least in their mastered bases after training with Whis.
I could see it like this
pre ritual base Goku<Frieza<Cell<=>post ritual base Goku<Buu<ssj3 Gotenks<mastered base (keeping ki inside) base Goku
