Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Desassina]

I always thought that Hit skipped time according to what he thought was the event going on, which means that if Goku was too fast for Hit's reaction, then he would have skipped Goku being in one place, but doing something else entirely at the same time, hence why the need to cross the arms when Goku had already hit him in the face.

[Marlowe89]

You think Black is still stronger than them?

With their current power, I think he's either still stronger than them or equal to them at the very least, but I'm leaning towards the former. Black's "scythe" boost had him cutting giant holes in the fabric of space and time -- which Black himself attributed entirely to his power -- and it left Vegeta pretty flabbergasted. Afterwards he was creating clones that neither Goku nor Vegeta could deal with and later flat-out stated that they weren't powerful enough to fight the real him yet (as opposed to his clones, implying that the clones were weaker than the genuine article) additionally saying that they needed another rage boost. To me this is a pretty clear implication that Black was comfortably stronger than Goku and Vegeta at the time.

The tricky part, I suppose, is determining whether Goku and Vegeta trained enough since the end of the previous arc to be on par with him now. I personally don't think so since Super Saiyan Rose Black was probably stronger than Golden Frieza, but who really knows?

[ZombieVito]

You think Black is still stronger than them?

With their current power, I think he's either still stronger than them or equal to them at the very least, but I'm leaning towards the former. Black's "scythe" boost had him cutting giant holes in the fabric of space and time -- which Black himself attributed entirely to his power -- and it left Vegeta pretty flabbergasted. Afterwards he was creating clones that neither Goku nor Vegeta could deal with and later flat-out stated that they weren't powerful enough to fight the real him yet (as opposed to his clones, implying that the clones were weaker than the genuine article) additionally saying that they needed another rage boost. To me this is a pretty clear implication that Black was comfortably stronger than Goku and Vegeta at the time.

The tricky part, I suppose, is determining whether Goku and Vegeta trained enough since the end of the previous arc to be on par with him now. I personally don't think so since Super Saiyan Rose Black was probably stronger than Golden Frieza, but who really knows?

Seems logical to me.

I don't think they trained that much. Maybe Goku reached Vegeta's level and that's it.

[Bullza]

It's hard to say where Black rates at the end because he didn't really do much.

He did make a comment that implied he was stronger than them but with what happened later on it seems like they weren't at full power. Goku and Vegeta didn't go full power until they attacked Merged Zamasu on the second and more successful attempt.

There's also that in the manga both Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as being superior to him too.

If Goku and Vegeta are over half as strong as Merged Zamasu then it doesn't make too much sense for Black to be somewhere inbetween because that would be an insignificant boost in strength from the Fusion and that wasn't implied at all.

[Marlowe89]

He did make a comment that implied he was stronger than them but with what happened later on it seems like they weren't at full power. Goku and Vegeta didn't go full power until they attacked Merged Zamasu on the second and more successful attempt.

The problem with this reasoning is that Goku explicitly said "Here goes, full power!" on his first attempt too and Merged Zamasu was stomping them there. The difference between the first and second attempt though is that Goku sacrificed his arm to harm Zamasu in the latter scenario, so it appears that there was definitely more power in that instance than Goku normally outputs at full strength. Moreover, we can't really say they weren't at full power just because they didn't specifically state that, since Goku and Vegeta have been outclassed on occasions where they didn't mention anything about it. All we can do is go by the dialogue that actually is given to us, and it was clearly insinuated that they weren't as strong as Black.

There's also that in the manga both Goku and Vegeta are portrayed as being superior to him too.

When? I only recall Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and God+Blue Vegeta being portrayed as superior to Black, but those aren't their normal Super Saiyan Blue forms which are considerably weaker due to the aura drain. Like yourself, I generally tend to place the anime's power scale as more or less similar to the manga's but I've always felt that the Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken form was Toei's equivalent of Complete Super Saiyan Blue.

I believe it was LowRyder2005 who brought it up, but we don't necessarily have to assume that Goku was half the strength of Merged Zamasu. To be frank, the power output Merged Zamasu uses in the anime is all over the place and if his power really is "incomprehensible" as it was said to be, one would think that his true strength is considerably higher than Kaioken Goku -- and that may in fact be what the "Light of Justice" thing was supposed to represent.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I think now is a very good time to post my DBSuper powerscaling list. Please keep in mind that I put no numbers in this, just relative locations of characters at different times. I'd love to hear different ideas as to where characters are. Also, feel free to critique my grammar and typographic mistakes.

NOTE:
I think we have enough information to place Sidra somewhere. Also, I call the yellow-haired SS1 form Goku used in DBS Ep. 14 'Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. When he turns into Base form to help defeat the sun ball attack, he gets stronger; I call this 'Merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. He uses this form against RoF Final Form Frieza. If you cannot entertain my idea that Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Merged Super Saiyan God/SSBlue/SSBlue KK, then please kindly move past this post.


[spoiler]Omni-king Tier
Omni-king = Future Omni-king

Angel Tier
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction Tier
Omni-kings Bodyguard #1 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #2 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #3 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #4
Beerus
Champa
Sidra

Fusion Tier
SSB Vegito
SSRage Future Trunks (Spirit Bomb Sword)
Mutated Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken Goku (F. Trunks - Universe Survival)
Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken x10 Goku (Universe 6)
SSB Goku (Universe Survival) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, Universe Survival) = True Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Zenkai, F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, F. Trunks) = SSRage Future Trunks (Zenkai)
SSR Black (Scythe)
Hit (F. Trunks)
Android 17 (Universe Survival)
Bergamo (Goku’s Power)

Super Saiyan Blue Tier
SSR Black (Scimitar)
SSRage Future Trunks
SSB Goku (Enraged, F. Trunks)
SSR Black
SSB Goku (F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (F. Trunks)
SSB Goku (Universe 6) = SSB Vegeta (Universe 6)
Hit (Universe 6)
Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Resurrection F) = SSB Vegeta (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan God Tier
Goku Black (Second Power Up)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Resurrection F) = Merged Super Saiyan God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Battle of Gods)
Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku
SSG Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Universe Survival)

Limits of Super Saiyan Tier
Slim Buu
SS2 Furious Vegeta
SS1 Vegito
Goku Black (First Power Up)

Ultimate Gohan Tier
Base Vegito (Buu)
Ultimate Gohan (Buu) = SS2 Improved Future Trunks = SS2 Improved Goku (Universe Survival)
Future Zamasu
SS3 Gotenks
First Form Frieza (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Tier
SS3 Goku
Piccolo (Universe Survival)
Good Buu
Super Basil
SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta = SS2 Gohan (DBZ, Universe Survival)
Goku Black
Present Zamasu
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Kid Gohan = SS2 Caulifla
LSS Kale


Super Saiyan Tier
SS1 Goku = SS1 Vegeta = SS1 Gohan
SS1 Caulifla = SS1 Future Trunks
SS1 Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Piccolo (Universe 6)
Ginyu-Tagoma
Tagoma
Piccolo (DBZ - Resurrection F)
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
SS1 Kid Trunks
SS1 Goten
Android 17 (DBZ)
Android 18
Final Form Frieza (Namek)

Base Tier
Base Goku = Base Vegeta = Base Gohan
Base Caulifla = Base Future Trunks
Base Cabba
Third Form Frost
Base Kid Trunks
Base Goten
First Form Frost
Krillin (Universe Survival)
Base Kale
Botamo


Worthless Tier
Roshi (Universe Survival)
Krillin (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Tien
Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Monaka[/spoiler]

[Bullza]

The problem with this reasoning is that Goku explicitly said "Here goes, full power!" on his first attempt too and Merged Zamasu was stomping them there.

That's what I was referring to, that was the second attempt. They attacked Merged Zamasu and came up short, they then tried again at "full power" and that time they destroyed the purple cloud monster and broke through.

So if that was where they finally went full power then they hadn't been using it beforehand. It'd be weird if they had against Black and then used a lesser amount of power when attacking someone said to be much stronger.

When? I only recall Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and God+Blue Vegeta being portrayed as superior to Black, but those aren't their normal Super Saiyan Blue forms which are considerably weaker due to the aura drain. Like yourself, I generally tend to place the anime's power scale as more or less similar to the manga's but I've always felt that the Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken form was Toei's equivalent of Complete Super Saiyan Blue.

I suppose we think different on that one, I see the Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta as being the equivalent of just the regular Super Saiyan Blue Goku and Vegeta upon returning to the future for the last time.

The Complete Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who came out the Rosat and put a beating on Black is the same Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who put a beating on Black after just getting stronger. The aura drain thing isn't a factor in the anime after all.

Complete Super Saiyan Blue Goku was match for Merged Zamasu kinda like what Super Saiyan Blue Goku was at full power during the beam struggle.

[Marlowe89]

So if that was where they finally went full power then they hadn't been using it beforehand.

I can see why you'd look at it that way, but that's assuming that they "finally" went full power -- the phrase could have meant that Goku was using his full power for the first time against Merged Zamasu specifically. We've seen them using their full power before without saying so and their fight against Black was technically a different battle, so I'd say it's really up in the air. Considering how stressed they seemed to be against the clones combined with Black's dialogue though, I think most viewers would have assumed they were doing all they could against Black.

The Complete Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who came out the Rosat and put a beating on Black is the same Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta who put a beating on Black after just getting stronger. The aura drain thing isn't a factor in the anime after all.

Admittedly, that's a valid point. I've always assumed that even though Vegeta's power doesn't drain drastically as it does in the manga, the fact that there's an aura in the first place means that he wasn't using anything akin to Complete Super Saiyan Blue -- but I suppose it's also possible that Vegeta simply became strong enough through his RoSaT training to have equivalent strength to what would have been his God+Blue tactic in the manga. I might have to rethink my own power scale interpretation in that regard.

Sometimes I wish there was a definitive list provided by the writers involved in Super, but then again if that was the case there wouldn't be much discussion. I'm still not entirely convinced that Black is necessarily the weakest link at this rate, but I suppose it's all up to interpretation.

[Hugo Boss]

I think if there was a list of top fighters from each universe, Black would rank with Freeza or Hit. Goku and Toppo are a bit above that and Jiren is probably the strongest. Yet we don't know how strong are Vegeta and No.17.

[Berserker1921]

I say the scale of Roshi-Grand Priest is 1-1000.
Grand Priest: 1000
Angels: 750-850
Gods of Destruction: 600-700
Jiren: 450-550
Ssjblue Goku kk10: 480-500
Ssjblue Goku: 400
Ssjblue Vegeta: 410
Golden Frieza: 400
Toppo: 380-400
Hit: 400-410

Sidra I have as the weakest god of destruction. So 600 exactly. While I have Beerus early to midway, so 630-650.

[Legion]

Sidra is really underrated in general. The new and strong Golden Freeza had to try his hardest to do what he did to a small portion of Sidra's destruction energy (Frieza is SSJB Goku level). And the ball that Frieza had to counter visibly sweating and with troubles was blown away by a simple whistle of Beerus.

So even for people who say that Goku etc are near to Hakaishins level, imo, i disagree.

[Bullza]

Well Rou did tell Sidra that beating Golden Frieza wouldn't be that easy after Sidra said he'd kill him if he betrayed them.

I'd guess that once Goku comes out with his new form tight against likely Jiren that by that point he'd be above some of the Gods of Destructions.

[Legion]

Well Rou did tell Sidra that beating Golden Frieza wouldn't be that easy after Sidra said he'd kill him if he betrayed them.

I'd guess that once Goku comes out with his new form tight against likely Jiren that by that point he'd be above some of the Gods of Destructions.

Is just Rou opinion, and he can be another idiot like Shin. It does not mean anything. The fact is that Sidra ki blast was just a small portion of energy of destruction and full power Frieza had to struggle to get the God of Destruction sphere off of him.
In a real fight, i'm sure that Sidra can destroy Frieza.

About this Goku "new form", we don't know anything and we don't even know if he will beat Jiren.

[Yomi]

Yeah, Frieza struggled for a hot minute, and was very winded.
Sidra just casually made that energy ball. What if he spams those things
or make a stronger one lol. Frieza wouldn't stand a chance.

[julianix]

Current:
1. Goku
2. Freeza
3. Vegeta
4. Gohan
5. 17

Prediction:
1. Gohan
2. Freeza
3. Goku
4. Vegeta
5. 17

[Yomi]

Gohan is probably not stronger than 17.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Wow, haha, boy do we argue over silly stuff.

Anyways, so I made a power level list of all the known characters from DBSuper.

I would like to preface this by saying I use the theory that in Battle of Gods Goku became a SSGod. After he dropped out of red hair, he was in SS1 but I label it as Semi-merged Super Saiyan God. Once he turned into Base and got stronger it was Merged Super Saiyan God.

This black-haired god form, I believe, fought Frieza in RoF, fought Copy-Vegeta, fought Monaka-Beerus, and fought Slim Buu.

If you are comfortable with entertaining this idea that is in my power level list, please view it. If you cannot move past this, I politely ask you to pass this by. I would prefer to keep the discussion constructive.

It is almost completed. I will be posting it soon.

I'd love to see your list.

Here is my list, DBZ Macky. Let me know your critiques and suggestions.

I think now is a very good time to post my DBSuper powerscaling list. Please keep in mind that I put no numbers in this, just relative locations of characters at different times. I'd love to hear different ideas as to where characters are. Also, feel free to critique my grammar and typographic mistakes.

NOTE:
I think we have enough information to place Sidra somewhere. Also, I call the yellow-haired SS1 form Goku used in DBS Ep. 14 'Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. When he turns into Base form to help defeat the sun ball attack, he gets stronger; I call this 'Merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. He uses this form against RoF Final Form Frieza. If you cannot entertain my idea that Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Merged Super Saiyan God/SSBlue/SSBlue KK, then please kindly move past this post.


[spoiler]Omni-king Tier
Omni-king = Future Omni-king

Angel Tier
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction Tier
Omni-kings Bodyguard #1 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #2 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #3 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #4
Beerus
Champa
Sidra

Fusion Tier
SSB Vegito
SSRage Future Trunks (Spirit Bomb Sword)
Mutated Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken Goku (F. Trunks - Universe Survival)
Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken x10 Goku (Universe 6)
SSB Goku (Universe Survival) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, Universe Survival) = True Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Zenkai, F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, F. Trunks) = SSRage Future Trunks (Zenkai)
SSR Black (Scythe)
Hit (F. Trunks)
Android 17 (Universe Survival)
Bergamo (Goku’s Power)

Super Saiyan Blue Tier
SSR Black (Scimitar)
SSRage Future Trunks
SSB Goku (Enraged, F. Trunks)
SSR Black
SSB Goku (F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (F. Trunks)
SSB Goku (Universe 6) = SSB Vegeta (Universe 6)
Hit (Universe 6)
Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Resurrection F) = SSB Vegeta (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan God Tier
Goku Black (Second Power Up)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Resurrection F) = Merged Super Saiyan God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Battle of Gods)
Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku
SSG Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Universe Survival)

Limits of Super Saiyan Tier
Slim Buu
SS2 Furious Vegeta
SS1 Vegito
Goku Black (First Power Up)

Ultimate Gohan Tier
Base Vegito (Buu)
Ultimate Gohan (Buu) = SS2 Improved Future Trunks = SS2 Improved Goku (Universe Survival)
Future Zamasu
SS3 Gotenks
First Form Frieza (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Tier
SS3 Goku
Piccolo (Universe Survival)
Good Buu
Super Basil
SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta = SS2 Gohan (DBZ, Universe Survival)
Goku Black
Present Zamasu
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Kid Gohan = SS2 Caulifla
LSS Kale


Super Saiyan Tier
SS1 Goku = SS1 Vegeta = SS1 Gohan
SS1 Caulifla = SS1 Future Trunks
SS1 Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Piccolo (Universe 6)
Ginyu-Tagoma
Tagoma
Piccolo (DBZ - Resurrection F)
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
SS1 Kid Trunks
SS1 Goten
Android 17 (DBZ)
Android 18
Final Form Frieza (Namek)

Base Tier
Base Goku = Base Vegeta = Base Gohan
Base Caulifla = Base Future Trunks
Base Cabba
Third Form Frost
Base Kid Trunks
Base Goten
First Form Frost
Krillin (Universe Survival)
Base Kale
Botamo


Worthless Tier
Roshi (Universe Survival)
Krillin (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Tien
Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Monaka[/spoiler]

[BlueBasilisk]

I think Hit and Golden Frieza were both probably stronger than Rose Black. Goku was eating dirt until Golden Frieza's power ran out and even with Kaioken x10, he wasn't able to beat a Hit who wasn't using his full abilities. A lot of the trouble with Rosé Black was from his immortal sidekick's interference.

[DBZ Macky]

Here is my list, DBZ Macky. Let me know your critiques and suggestions.

I think now is a very good time to post my DBSuper powerscaling list. Please keep in mind that I put no numbers in this, just relative locations of characters at different times. I'd love to hear different ideas as to where characters are. Also, feel free to critique my grammar and typographic mistakes.

NOTE:
I think we have enough information to place Sidra somewhere. Also, I call the yellow-haired SS1 form Goku used in DBS Ep. 14 'Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. When he turns into Base form to help defeat the sun ball attack, he gets stronger; I call this 'Merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. He uses this form against RoF Final Form Frieza. If you cannot entertain my idea that Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Merged Super Saiyan God/SSBlue/SSBlue KK, then please kindly move past this post.


[spoiler]Omni-king Tier
Omni-king = Future Omni-king

Angel Tier
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction Tier
Omni-kings Bodyguard #1 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #2 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #3 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #4
Beerus
Champa
Sidra

Fusion Tier
SSB Vegito
SSRage Future Trunks (Spirit Bomb Sword)
Mutated Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken Goku (F. Trunks - Universe Survival)
Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken x10 Goku (Universe 6)
SSB Goku (Universe Survival) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, Universe Survival) = True Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Zenkai, F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, F. Trunks) = SSRage Future Trunks (Zenkai)
SSR Black (Scythe)
Hit (F. Trunks)
Android 17 (Universe Survival)
Bergamo (Goku’s Power)

Super Saiyan Blue Tier
SSR Black (Scimitar)
SSRage Future Trunks
SSB Goku (Enraged, F. Trunks)
SSR Black
SSB Goku (F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (F. Trunks)
SSB Goku (Universe 6) = SSB Vegeta (Universe 6)
Hit (Universe 6)
Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Resurrection F) = SSB Vegeta (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan God Tier
Goku Black (Second Power Up)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Resurrection F) = Merged Super Saiyan God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Battle of Gods)
Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku
SSG Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Universe Survival)

Limits of Super Saiyan Tier
Slim Buu
SS2 Furious Vegeta
SS1 Vegito
Goku Black (First Power Up)

Ultimate Gohan Tier
Base Vegito (Buu)
Ultimate Gohan (Buu) = SS2 Improved Future Trunks = SS2 Improved Goku (Universe Survival)
Future Zamasu
SS3 Gotenks
First Form Frieza (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Tier
SS3 Goku
Piccolo (Universe Survival)
Good Buu
Super Basil
SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta = SS2 Gohan (DBZ, Universe Survival)
Goku Black
Present Zamasu
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Kid Gohan = SS2 Caulifla
LSS Kale


Super Saiyan Tier
SS1 Goku = SS1 Vegeta = SS1 Gohan
SS1 Caulifla = SS1 Future Trunks
SS1 Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Piccolo (Universe 6)
Ginyu-Tagoma
Tagoma
Piccolo (DBZ - Resurrection F)
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
SS1 Kid Trunks
SS1 Goten
Android 17 (DBZ)
Android 18
Final Form Frieza (Namek)

Base Tier
Base Goku = Base Vegeta = Base Gohan
Base Caulifla = Base Future Trunks
Base Cabba
Third Form Frost
Base Kid Trunks
Base Goten
First Form Frost
Krillin (Universe Survival)
Base Kale
Botamo


Worthless Tier
Roshi (Universe Survival)
Krillin (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Tien
Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Monaka[/spoiler]

That's a pretty solid list! I agree with most of these. The ones I don't have been highlighted in red.

-Roshi should be stronger than Jaco, given his superior performance in the RoF Arc. For the Universe Survival Arc, Toshio "thinks" that Roshi was powered up by witchcraft against Tenshinhan, so I'll kinda take his word for it and assume that he's really only Raditz tier at best.

-Cabba, and by extension Caulifla should be way stronger than Cell Games Gohan. After all, Cabba was on par with U6 Arc Vegeta.

-Piccolo should be weaker than SS2 Gohan. I made a video about it, but it was pretty long and I wasn't able to express myself too well. I plan on making a post explaining my take on this later.

-Gohan was able to fight on par with SSB Goku who was apparently running at full power. Either Gohan's rage boost gets him to SSB Goku's level, or Goku was just holding back at his level. What's the point of an in-between?

-Android 17 shouldn't be that strong IMO. I guess it's just a matter of preference, given how vague his true power is, but I'd put him at Piccolo's tier for now. But you won't be wrong even if you put him at that tier, so it's your choice.

-I think SSB Kaioken x10 Goku should be near the bottom of that list, just above Bergamo.

[ChiefWamsutta]

Here is my list, DBZ Macky. Let me know your critiques and suggestions.

I think now is a very good time to post my DBSuper powerscaling list. Please keep in mind that I put no numbers in this, just relative locations of characters at different times. I'd love to hear different ideas as to where characters are. Also, feel free to critique my grammar and typographic mistakes.

NOTE:
I think we have enough information to place Sidra somewhere. Also, I call the yellow-haired SS1 form Goku used in DBS Ep. 14 'Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. When he turns into Base form to help defeat the sun ball attack, he gets stronger; I call this 'Merged Super Saiyan God Goku'. He uses this form against RoF Final Form Frieza. If you cannot entertain my idea that Goku has Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/Merged Super Saiyan God/SSBlue/SSBlue KK, then please kindly move past this post.


[spoiler]Omni-king Tier
Omni-king = Future Omni-king

Angel Tier
Grand Priest
Vados
Whis

God of Destruction Tier
Omni-kings Bodyguard #1 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #2 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #3 = Omni-kings Bodyguard #4
Beerus
Champa
Sidra

Fusion Tier
SSB Vegito
SSRage Future Trunks (Spirit Bomb Sword)
Mutated Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken Goku (F. Trunks - Universe Survival)
Toppo
Merged Zamasu
SSB Kaioken x10 Goku (Universe 6)
SSB Goku (Universe Survival) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, Universe Survival) = True Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Zenkai, F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (Post-RoSaT, F. Trunks) = SSRage Future Trunks (Zenkai)
SSR Black (Scythe)
Hit (F. Trunks)
Android 17 (Universe Survival)
Bergamo (Goku’s Power)

Super Saiyan Blue Tier
SSR Black (Scimitar)
SSRage Future Trunks
SSB Goku (Enraged, F. Trunks)
SSR Black
SSB Goku (F. Trunks) = SSB Vegeta (F. Trunks)
SSB Goku (Universe 6) = SSB Vegeta (Universe 6)
Hit (Universe 6)
Golden Frieza
SSB Goku (Resurrection F) = SSB Vegeta (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan God Tier
Goku Black (Second Power Up)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Resurrection F) = Merged Super Saiyan God Vegeta (Resurrection F)
Final Form Frieza (Resurrection F)
Merged Super Saiyan God Goku (Battle of Gods)
Semi-merged Super Saiyan God Goku
SSG Goku = Ultimate Gohan (Universe Survival)

Limits of Super Saiyan Tier
Slim Buu
SS2 Furious Vegeta
SS1 Vegito
Goku Black (First Power Up)

Ultimate Gohan Tier
Base Vegito (Buu)
Ultimate Gohan (Buu) = SS2 Improved Future Trunks = SS2 Improved Goku (Universe Survival)
Future Zamasu
SS3 Gotenks
First Form Frieza (Resurrection F)

Super Saiyan 2 and 3 Tier
SS3 Goku
Piccolo (Universe Survival)
Good Buu
Super Basil
SS2 Goku = SS2 Vegeta = SS2 Gohan (DBZ, Universe Survival)
Goku Black
Present Zamasu
SS2 Future Trunks
SS2 Kid Gohan = SS2 Caulifla
LSS Kale


Super Saiyan Tier
SS1 Goku = SS1 Vegeta = SS1 Gohan
SS1 Caulifla = SS1 Future Trunks
SS1 Cabba
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Piccolo (Universe 6)
Ginyu-Tagoma
Tagoma
Piccolo (DBZ - Resurrection F)
Bergamo
Lavender
Basil
SS1 Kid Trunks
SS1 Goten
Android 17 (DBZ)
Android 18
Final Form Frieza (Namek)

Base Tier
Base Goku = Base Vegeta = Base Gohan
Base Caulifla = Base Future Trunks
Base Cabba
Third Form Frost
Base Kid Trunks
Base Goten
First Form Frost
Krillin (Universe Survival)
Base Kale
Botamo


Worthless Tier
Roshi (Universe Survival)
Krillin (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Tien
Shisami
Gryll
Jaco
Roshi (DBZ – F. Trunks)
Monaka[/spoiler]

That's a pretty solid list! I agree with most of these. The ones I don't have been highlighted in red.

-Roshi should be stronger than Jaco, given his superior performance in the RoF Arc. For the Universe Survival Arc, Toshio "thinks" that Roshi was powered up by witchcraft against Tenshinhan, so I'll kinda take his word for it and assume that he's really only Raditz tier at best.

-Cabba, and by extension Caulifla should be way stronger than Cell Games Gohan. After all, Cabba was on par with U6 Arc Vegeta.

-Piccolo should be weaker than SS2 Gohan. I made a video about it, but it was pretty long and I wasn't able to express myself too well. I plan on making a post explaining my take on this later.

-Gohan was able to fight on par with SSB Goku who was apparently running at full power. Either Gohan's rage boost gets him to SSB Goku's level, or Goku was just holding back at his level. What's the point of an in-between?

-Android 17 shouldn't be that strong IMO. I guess it's just a matter of preference, given how vague his true power is, but I'd put him at Piccolo's tier for now. But you won't be wrong even if you put him at that tier, so it's your choice.

-I think SSB Kaioken x10 Goku should be near the bottom of that list, just above Bergamo.

Wow, well, thank you. I am glad that nothing has stood out too much in error.

Re: Roshi and Jaco I made the change for this. Yeah, I haven't seen the RoF Saga in awhile, but I trust you that Jaco did worse than Roshi.

Re: Roshi and Tien I have felt conflicted about what Toshio said. It is weird that in the show Goku says nothing about the power-up coming from the witchcraft controlling Roshi, rather it is training he has been doing in secret. I may leave it the way it is now until more information comes out.

Re: Cabba and Caulifla I am not sure I understand. Cabba is as strong as U6 Saga Base Vegeta, which is their normal Base power, not SSGod level. When Caulifla goes SS1, Cabba believes that she might beat him as an SS1 (so around SS1 Vegeta's level). Her unlocking SS2 would put her at SS2 Gohan (Cell Games) power when he first unlocked that form, in my opinion. LSS Kale seemed to be weaker than SS2 Caulifla.

Re: Piccolo and Gohan I personally see Piccolo as stronger than SS2 Gohan. Gohan was shocked by his new power and Piccolo said he had been training while Gohan studied. He was also able to strangle SS2 Gohan.

Re: Ultimate Gohan I put Ultimate Gohan (Universe Survival) above Ultimate Gohan (Buu) because of how strong he was doing, but I don't personally feel that three punches is enough to satisfy classifying Gohan at SSB Goku's power. Goku also stated that "Vegeta and I can beat Frieza if he betrays us," while Gohan was in the room. Goku was under the assumption that Frieza was still at his RoF power. Gohan was right there and to not mention Gohan being able to beat Frieza, Ultimate Gohan (Universe Survival) should be below SSB Goku (RoF). This is why I put him in the low SSGod Tier.

Re: Android 17 Yeah, since Goku said he was forced to use SSBlue and their clash at the horizon looked very even, I would put him in that tier. Despite both of them holding back, it seemed to imply that they were close.

Re: SSB Kaioken x10 Goku Hmmmmm, interesting. In order for SSB Kaioken x10 Goku (U6 Saga) to be below SSB Goku (Universe Survival) he would have to have gotten >10X stronger in the F. Trunks arc. I guess I just can't see that happening. ... I don't know; I could be wrong.