Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Legion » Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:57 pm

I see no problem in the fact that Goku, Freeza, Toppo or Black are close to the power of the Hakaishins. This has been said several times.
In contrast, it has never been said that Beerus was far superior to the current Goku and Vegeta for example
Not really.

I just find it funny that with all of these power ups on the horizon, some people here actually believe SSJB level characters (like Gohan and yes, 17) are anywhere near the likes of Beerus/Hakashins. Really nothing suggest this for now, and even with the last episode is clear.

Frieza is more weaker than Sidra, i have no doubt about this. Freeza basically admits he can't stop Beerus/Hakaishins from doing what they wants, which is why he's going to try to use the tournament to manipulate them instead.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:12 pm

None is as power to a GoD or even close until we are told or shown.

Frieza might have overcome some of Sidra's energy but that dose not automatically make him on his level. Goku's survived Beerus's lesser attacks before and I think we can all agree that he was not anywhere near Beerus's true power in any of the previous arcs.

Until someone goes toe-to-toe with a GoD or is said to truly be a match for one, Sidra is still too much for Frieza if they battled in person.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:18 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Doctor. wrote:To the Sidra-Freeza discussion: a GoD's job is to destroy planets. That's something Vegeta could do back in the Saiyan arc. Destroying a Solar System is something Cell could do. I think it's nonsensical to claim Sidra is incapable of destroying stuff because of his power. It clearly has to do with mindset, the same promo material that says he can't destroy stuff also says he's indecisive.
Are you talking about the dialogue between him and Rou?

Destroying a Warrior with a level of power next to yours is totally different from destroying a planet or a solar system. His power allows this, but it is different when he faces a powerful adversary.

I see no problem in the fact that Goku, Freeza, Toppo or Black are close to the power of the Hakaishins. This has been said several times.
In contrast, it has never been said that Beerus was far superior to the current Goku and Vegeta for example
No, I'm talking about people claiming that Sidra didn't have the necessary power to be a God of Destruction, which is ludicrous considering even namek Freeza would. Sidra's inability to destroy planets comes from his indecisiveness; I didn't give my opinion as to whether Freeza is close to Sidra nor do I intend to.
So I got confused

Vegeta, in the Saiyan Saga, made Earth tremble only by elevating its Ki.
I do not know how anyone can claim that Sidra has no power to be Hakaishin.

I also do not think he is the weakest Hakaishin just by being in the Universe with the lowest mortal level. This is not related to power but to his incompetence in his position (which comes from his personality too) and his Kaioshin does not appear to do his job properly (the Angel is disappointed that Sidra is a failure).
Beerus is Hakaishin of the second Universe with the lowest mortal level and is not the weakest.
Lord Frieza wrote:None is as power to a GoD or even close until we are told or shown.

Frieza might have overcome some of Sidra's energy but that dose not automatically make him on his level. Goku's survived Beerus's lesser attacks before and I think we can all agree that he was not anywhere near Beerus's true power in any of the previous arcs.

Until someone goes toe-to-toe with a GoD or is said to truly be a match for one, Sidra is still too much for Frieza if they battled in person.
I never said that it made Freeza be on the same level as a Hakaishin.

But that sphere of Sidra energy was like a Hakai, and even that did not work for the emperor (showing that the technique is not omnipotent as some think, and holding the idea that it does not work on opponents of a similar level).

They are not on the same level as a Hakaishin, but they are close and several lines indicate this

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:21 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:At this point, I dont think anybody besides G.O.D and higher in power level can destroy a universe. Beerus & Champa can do so individually. Beerus >>>> Goku, Vegeta, Goku Black, Trunks & Gohan meaning these lesser characters aren't capable of such a feat. I'd place them at Multi Galactic at best.
They should be able to. Beerus had no problem negating the energy sphere that was going to destroy the universe or one of Goku's Kamehameha's but the final one where he powered up to full he couldn't and had to counter it with a blast of his own instead.

That final Kamehameha​ should have more power packed into it than the universe destroying energy sphere which already was made up of half of Goku's power.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Frieza » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:39 pm

TheSaiyanGod wrote: snip
I think you miss understand, that was a blanket statement, not directed at you specifically.

I do agree that the heroes are getting closer, Goku biting Whis is actually a pretty good indication that mortal fighters are catching up fast.

But I think you'll agree that blocking a second hand haki is very different from blocking Sidra doing it in person. Again its a hint that Goku and Frieza are getting there.....just not yet.

I think Sidra is our lowest hanging branch here. Everything point to him being the worst of the GoD. Reaching his level is the bare minimum a mortal fighter need to get to to be considered "True God Level".

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Triggered Vegeta » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:48 pm

Bullza wrote:
Triggered Vegeta wrote:At this point, I dont think anybody besides G.O.D and higher in power level can destroy a universe. Beerus & Champa can do so individually. Beerus >>>> Goku, Vegeta, Goku Black, Trunks & Gohan meaning these lesser characters aren't capable of such a feat. I'd place them at Multi Galactic at best.
They should be able to. Beerus had no problem negating the energy sphere that was going to destroy the universe or one of Goku's Kamehameha's but the final one where he powered up to full he couldn't and had to counter it with a blast of his own instead.

That final Kamehameha​ should have more power packed into it than the universe destroying energy sphere which already was made up of half of Goku's power.
That's what makes it so inconsistent. Both Champa & Beerus are inplied to have the power to destroy the universe... nothing crazy beyond that. Goku & gang are below them so shouldn't that mean they have less power output... meaning they can't unleash a blast capable of such a feat. SSG messed everything up... are we supposed to believe these characters who are leagues above SSG can casually destroy multiple universes?
Champa & Beerus can destroy 2 at max power.... Goku has not reached that said power so I really doubt he could pull it off.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Wed Jun 21, 2017 5:54 pm

Doctor. wrote:
TheSaiyanGod wrote:
Doctor. wrote:To the Sidra-Freeza discussion: a GoD's job is to destroy planets. That's something Vegeta could do back in the Saiyan arc. Destroying a Solar System is something Cell could do. I think it's nonsensical to claim Sidra is incapable of destroying stuff because of his power. It clearly has to do with mindset, the same promo material that says he can't destroy stuff also says he's indecisive.
Are you talking about the dialogue between him and Rou?

Destroying a Warrior with a level of power next to yours is totally different from destroying a planet or a solar system. His power allows this, but it is different when he faces a powerful adversary.

I see no problem in the fact that Goku, Freeza, Toppo or Black are close to the power of the Hakaishins. This has been said several times.
In contrast, it has never been said that Beerus was far superior to the current Goku and Vegeta for example
No, I'm talking about people claiming that Sidra didn't have the necessary power to be a God of Destruction, which is ludicrous considering even namek Freeza would. Sidra's inability to destroy planets comes from his indecisiveness; I didn't give my opinion as to whether Freeza is close to Sidra nor do I intend to.
I don't think anyone claimed he couldn't bust a planet, a galaxy or whatever DBZ-style; his Hakai did fail to erase both Goku and Freeza or even do some lasting damage to the duo, still.
In that regard, the theory he may be less apt in the aspect of "destroying" things does not appear devoid of any merit whatsoever.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:30 pm

Triggered Vegeta wrote:That's what makes it so inconsistent. Both Champa & Beerus are inplied to have the power to destroy the universe... nothing crazy beyond that. Goku & gang are below them so shouldn't that mean they have less power output... meaning they can't unleash a blast capable of such a feat. SSG messed everything up... are we supposed to believe these characters who are leagues above SSG can casually destroy multiple universes?
Champa & Beerus can destroy 2 at max power.... Goku has not reached that said power so I really doubt he could pull it off.
Well just because they're below them doesn't mean they couldn't destroy the Universe too maybe it'd just take considerably more effort. Like how Saiyan Saga Vegeta can destroy a planet compared to Kid Buu.

In the manga when Beerus and Champa were about to blow up the universe it took them no time at all to summon up that football sized energy ball. Probably wouldn't be nearly as easy for the others.

The equivalent of 2 Beerus' could destroy 2 universes. The equivalent of 2 SSJG Goku's could destroy 1 universe. Current Goku is somewhere inbetween.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:21 pm

Could it be possible that Freeza didn't get stronger at all but rather he increased the multiplier for his Golden form?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Thu Jun 22, 2017 9:15 am

ZombieVito wrote:Could it be possible that Freeza didn't get stronger at all but rather he increased the multiplier for his Golden form?
I suppose the only way you could have him significantly stronger, in a broader sense, was if you rationalized that his 100% in ROF was something that fizzled out fairly quickly, and that Freeza could get only some relative percentage of his power output during most of his fight with Blue Goku. Basically, I think this Freeza could perform at *1.25, *1.5 of his former self during most of the fights. With the added perk of never draining his power completely, which'll obviously make him a force to reckon with.

What we know for sure is only that he doesn't have stamina issues anymore. Hence, it stands to reason he'll perform at a superior level compared to his ROF self, but it doesn't seem like he increased either his normal or golden form by any given factor of x.

Anything more generous than that, though, and you'd either have to argue Goku got almost no increase since ROF, or that Freeza was many times stronger than Goku and yet the latter still insisted to fight him head on when they sensed their respective powers in ROF. Both scenarios appear equally dubious to me (especially the second one, since it wouldn't make sense for godly-powered heroes to take Freeza so lightly when he towered both Goku and Vegeta in ROF).

In short, like many different users pointed out some pages, this revelation Freeza can still contend with Goku grants granitic credibility to the idea that, while the characters got stronger, these same characters shouldn't be leaps and bounds above their selves after Whis' training (even something like them getting four or five times stronger seems too much, in light of Freeza's feats). Again, this was something the series never really tried to promote, bar maybe some occurence in Goku vs. Hit part II - which at this point can be reasonably reconciled in at least some other ways. Goku's endeavors almost certainly made him overcome the power gap between him and 100% Golden Freeza, making him his equal in the purest sense, but it can't really be much more than that.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by buutenks » Thu Jun 22, 2017 10:53 am

Bullza wrote:Well just because they're below them doesn't mean they couldn't destroy the Universe too maybe it'd just take considerably more effort. Like how Saiyan Saga Vegeta can destroy a planet compared to Kid Buu.

In the manga when Beerus and Champa were about to blow up the universe it took them no time at all to summon up that football sized energy ball. Probably wouldn't be nearly as easy for the others.

The equivalent of 2 Beerus' could destroy 2 universes. The equivalent of 2 SSJG Goku's could destroy 1 universe. Current Goku is somewhere inbetween.
IIRC, Whis said Beerus and Champa would destroy their respective universes, which means they can universe bust. However, Old kai said that Goku and Beerus would destroy everything in the universe, not the universe itself. Old kai specifically says that if Goku and Beerus continue fighting the universe would become void. So, it seems to me that at ssg level, one would be able to destroy all matter in a universe, not the universe itself(aka the dimension itself) and only someone of a GoD's caliber can destroy the entire universe.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Thu Jun 22, 2017 5:44 pm

I just re-checked the Crunchyroll subtitles.

Goku flat-out states that Freeza wasn't the only one who got stronger after their mutual punches were exchanged.

So, by exerting extreme mental concentration to prevent himself from going insane and repenting, Freeza did what Goku and Gohan did during the Cell Games, eliminating the stamina drain of his Golden Evolution and gaining precise control over its immense power, which in turn vastly powered him up as well.

What I'm wondering is if Golden Freeza's form multiplier is the same as it was before. Back in RoF, he was about on-par with base Goku, but turning Golden put his power above SSB's multiplier. If it is the same, then Freeza's base form would be lower than Goku's currently. If it's not and he's equal to Goku in base form, then his Golden Evolution either has a lower multiplier now or SSB's multiplier has increased.

I don't know, which of the two options seems more likely?

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Thu Jun 22, 2017 7:43 pm

I'd say Super Saiyan Blue's multiplier increased.

I don't think it'd be like the oridinary Super Saiyan forms that have a set multiplier because God Ki and normal Ki are completely separate. We saw when Goku became a Super Saiyan God that as that fight went on he just kept surpassing his limits and coming out with more and more power up until the end.

Super Saiyan Blue is still really just Super Saiyan God for the most part. So again maybe he just continued to bring out more of that power, specifically during his rage moment against Black and Zamasu.

That might be why his power didn't go down after he was no longer angry.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ssbgoku » Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:09 pm

For base goku I came up with idea how it could work if we want to not bring any retconns or plot reasons, yeah not even writters's whim or writters's lack of knowledge or even worse not caring about relative comparisions between characters.

Well so I have came up with idea that Saiyan Beyond God is name for goku and then for vegeta when they reached and now can freely access godly power at will.
My idea is that this ssg power wasn't fully absorbed until last moment base goku punched Beerus's energy sphere, earlier it was semi merged ssg power with ss goku when time run out, I know it still sounds quite messed up and not easy to follow up but I also believe ssg isn't any multiplier but just some godly level which put characters in higher realm of power.

Long story short: Back then before even goku reached new transformation aka ssb, his ssg full power was equal to his ss3 transformation, making him 400 times weaker then ssg in base. Now we would have to scale how big jump was ssg from pre god ss3. Trying to keep it reasonal and normal I would lowballing ssg goku to above dbz ss vegetto level but below dbz ss2 vegetto level. Now what is the smallest gap between ss3 gotenks(suppossing bog ss3 goku reached this level) and dbz ss vegetto, I guess it could be 50 times difference, so let's make ssg 60 times stronger then ss3 goku pre god. This way we have:
pre for 100%sbg = 120% ssg. Possible in rof goku could contain all power of sbg(as he would be using ss3) without actually using it.

pre ssb:

ss3 goku - 100% sbg >= bog ss vegetto
ss2 goku - 25% sbg
ss goku - 12.5% sbg >= buuhan
base goku - 0.25% sbg - good buu (that why goku was still impressed with majin buu power when enraged)

post ssb (assuming ssb is x8 ss3 just because ss2=ss x 2 ss3 = 4 x ss2:

ssb goku - 100% ssb
ss3 goku - 12.5% ssb
ss2 goku - 6.25% ssb
ss goku - 3.125% ssb
base goku - 0,0625% ssb

Of course we have to keep in mind how much goku has progressed over time, so he would be ten times stronger in each form then back then in rof. If you believe it was still just sbg->ssb then fine but it was only until rosat where both goku and vegeta stabilized and improved ssb enough so they could bring back ss forms, so they could be highly supressed in lower form.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:32 pm

New episode.

Liquir, Arak and Iwen seem to be equals. Beerus and Champa also were equals. Maybe these Gods of Destruction don't range in power too much. Unless Gene is above them and they're saving him for later which is why he didn't fight?

Caulifla said the Universe 7 Saiyans weren't much compared to the Pride Troopers. Obviously they hadn't powered up but I dunno if it means all of them would be above Base level.

Jiren is definitely being hyped up the most by far, he's gotta be the mortal above the Gods surely.

Preview showed a lot, I'd have to watch that slowed down to see what actually happened.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by SansrivaaL » Sat Jun 24, 2017 8:34 pm

Bullza wrote:New episode.

Liquir, Arak and Iwen seem to be equals. Beerus and Champa also were equals. Maybe these Gods of Destruction don't range in power too much. Unless Gene is above them and they're saving him for later which is why he didn't fight?

Caulifla said the Universe 7 Saiyans weren't much compared to the Pride Troopers. Obviously they hadn't powered up but I dunno if it means all of them would be above Base level.

Jiren is definitely being hyped up the most by far, he's gotta be the mortal above the Gods surely.

Preview showed a lot, I'd have to watch that slowed down to see what actually happened.
No, Cauli's action implied that because Goku and Vegeta were freaked out by the sudden surge of ki from the U11 fighters Cauli commented that U7 saiyans arent that tough, you know, because they got freaked out while she remained calm.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:15 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:
Bullza wrote:New episode.

Liquir, Arak and Iwen seem to be equals. Beerus and Champa also were equals. Maybe these Gods of Destruction don't range in power too much. Unless Gene is above them and they're saving him for later which is why he didn't fight?

Caulifla said the Universe 7 Saiyans weren't much compared to the Pride Troopers. Obviously they hadn't powered up but I dunno if it means all of them would be above Base level.

Jiren is definitely being hyped up the most by far, he's gotta be the mortal above the Gods surely.

Preview showed a lot, I'd have to watch that slowed down to see what actually happened.
No, Cauli's action implied that because Goku and Vegeta were freaked out by the sudden surge of ki from the U11 fighters Cauli commented that U7 saiyans arent that tough, you know, because they got freaked out while she remained calm.
It seemed to me that Caulifla really could not perceive the danger that Jiren represented, unlike Goku and Vegeta. hey seem much more experienced in this regard

_______

Jiren really struck me as very Badass, the Hype they're putting on him is pretty big. Goku was very surprised by his speed.
But I do not think it's something extraordinary right now. Goku wanted to talk to him in a friendly way, but he did not expect him to refuse. Not to mention that it was in base form.
He still smiles later, as if he was getting even more excited

I also believe that Jiren is the mortal who is stronger than a Hakaishin

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:23 pm

Interestingly, Liquiir said "Let us reaffirm our superiority over all of the participating universes" right before his sparring match with Iwen and Arak. Although one could interpret that as referring only to the fighters, the fact he mentioned the universes as a whole could quite plausibly mean he was including their Gods of Destruction in that statement as well.

It's not exactly confirmed but I could definitely see Liquiir, Iwen, Arak and Gene being the most powerful Gods of Destruction, with Sidra being the weakest.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:42 pm

So if Final Form Frieza fights Final Form Frost and the latter is able to put up a good fight....does that kill the two base theory?

One should be as strong as Super Saiyan God whereas the other was weaker than Super Saiyan, he was said to have improved but he wouldn't have become that strong normally in so short a time, just on the run too.

If there is only one Base then Frost should have the edge on Frieza.

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Re: Official Unofficial "Dragon Ball Super" Power Level Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:44 pm

Bullza wrote:So if Final Form Frieza fights Final Form Frost and the latter is able to put up a good fight....does that kill the two base theory?

One should be as strong as Super Saiyan God whereas the other was weaker than Super Saiyan, he was said to have improved but he wouldn't have become that strong normally in so short a time, just on the run too.

If there is only one Base then Frost should have the edge on Frieza.
Freeza reached god level in 4 months...

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