Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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lord turbo
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by lord turbo » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:57 pm

LowRyder2005 wrote:Absolutely not. Basically every single of your inferences naturally relies on some assumption turn at any point, and yet the way you pig-headedly believe you aren't interjecting any more than I am - actually, that you're interjecting way less than I am - leads me to believe you can't even fathom the normal logical processes of moving from premises to hypothesis to opinions. This only shows a profound immaturity and inability to accept other wordlviews.

If you think Vegeta's words are enough to prove he was equal to Cabba it's still your opinion. Not a fact. If I believe Vegeta's words are not enough to prove he was equal to Cabba it's an opinion. If you disagree with me we see why we disagree and maybe one of us changes his idea; if we can't see it eye to eye then you try to respectfully move on.
To reiterate, you are in dire need of a reality check: you are giving me your opinions, I've been diplomatic enough to acknowledge them as such - while questioning many of the processes which lead you to those conclusions; which is what the discussion actually entails to - and to give you mine in return. I think of myself as a reasonably open-minded person. If the end result is that you spout ridiculous crap I could condone only assuming you are way younger than me (namely, in some 15-18 bracket), like "your baseless opinions are confronting my facts" along with slander, smear campaigns and name-calling, it's clear the issue is on your part. Evidently, chances are you can't understand your opinions are just darn opinions.
You're being obtuse, my inferences only rely on what the series itself plainly tell us, anymore and I prefer not to discuss it as it relies on too many assumptions, why in the world would I accept anything that's just flat out wrong to begin with? I don't need to think or believe anything, Vegeta makes a statement and and visibly shows it making it a fact that's not contradicted by anything. I don't know how you can see Vegeta and Cabba visibly having a dead equal beam duel with Vegeta mentioning their power levels are equal in their base forms, complete with him saying this battle won't end quickly (the same quote SSJ2 Goku mentions once he sees SSJ2 Majin Vegeta's power) with Vegeta wanting to settle the battle as SSJs and come to "Derp, Vegeta was lying, *insert any excuse here* to downplay it is beyond me.

Its a nonsensical and baseless argument to take, that''s not being open-minded, that's being in denial and narrow-minded, you're mere opinion, I REPEAT YOUR MERE OPINION, does not change this, you're are simply wrong, deal with it. Why would I waste any more time debating a clear cut and shown statement to a stubborn person who can't accept simple straight forward uncontradicted facts. You're pompous, long winded scolding, internet elistism, arrogant, warped, condescending, self-entitled prick attitude to beat around the bush does not and will not change this.
It's almost as if you're indulding in some transference process regarding your own behavior. I'm not trying to spoon-feed you anything, I've been very tame in my assertions and every time I've stated I think the multipliers may or may not be static it has something which has to do with how I view things (and I don't even think the multipliers *have* to be static, namely; the difference between you and me is that you're convinced they can't be static, while I think the manga can easily work with static multipliers and that the guidebooks act as more compelling evidence in favor of the theory). Contrary to you, who are literally trying to show the concept - among a ridiculous amount of many others, as far as many (again, good as any) step-by-step dissection of this or that scene, some of which I've reported above for comparison - down my throat and that of whoever may disagree with you.

Truthfully, I'd gladly invite someone else to step in at this point, since I suppose I've probably indirectly antagonized you to such a degree you'd rant until the dies irae anyway even if I were the most good-natured person in the world.
Don't project your insecurities onto to me, these "multipliers" from the guys can't be and are not static for the simple fact Gohan, Vegeta, Goku, and Trunks all have greatly varying boosts in the same forms, with Trunks and Vegeta even mentioning on panel Trunks greatly enhanced the boost of his SSJ2 form without even having to transforming to match SSJ3 Goku's full strength. The multipliers are somewhat nice as a general guideline, but they are not some constant set in stone multipliers as the series shows.

I'm sorry if my in-depth process is nitpicked as step-by-step dissection in your mind, but it honestly feels you need to be beat repeatedly over the head about it until it registers "Hmmm...guess I was wrong." Like Freeza getting stronger post RoF saga where it took a bunch of needlessly posts before you admitted "Huh, I was wrong, Freeza did get stronger." Like really, you friggin think?! Why you do you think I said you like arguing for the sake of arguing?
Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:When it comes to Ultra Instinct, would this be considered a "Godly State"? If so, is Roshi's statement on Goku's Chi confirmation that he could at least detect God Chi?

Also, do you believe Super Saiyan could be combined with Ultra Instinct? Or is it likely that the form is its own thing?
Not enough information to really say as of now.
Last edited by lord turbo on Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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GodVegetto91
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by GodVegetto91 » Tue Oct 17, 2017 7:57 pm

Super Saiyan Turlast x4 wrote:When it comes to Ultra Instinct, would this be considered a "Godly State"? If so, is Roshi's statement on Goku's Chi confirmation that he could at least detect God Chi?

Also, do you believe Super Saiyan could be combined with Ultra Instinct? Or is it likely that the form is its own thing?
Dude.. he said SEEMS.

Master Roshi: "His energy seems frighteningly calm."

At no point does that imply he can actually sense it.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheDevilsCorpse » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:30 pm

I want to say that I can't believe this thread already needs yet another reminder of how members are expected to conduct themselves when posting on the forum, but that's not reality. Strength related threads always end up needing the most babysitting, as they get unnecessarily heated with members being snarky, dismissive, rude, or downright hostile at its worst.
darzap wrote:Oh my f**king god. No, we do not have a direct statement putting him above the angels. And I hate the abuse of words like "direct", "proof", "confirmed" (triggered) in this community.
GodVegetto91 wrote:Lmfao did i just read that right?! Do you seriously have SSJ Blue Vegetto ABOVE the Grand Priest!???
darzap wrote:The self-assurance members of the DB community display, when they establish their speculations as undisputable facts is beyond my comprehension. I'll bookmark this page, though, for later reference.
LowRyder2005 wrote:If you can't understand such a basic notion, which is a necessary prerequisite of confronting another opinion, then you should probably stop using forums and start from self-help books on "how can I become an understanding and acceptive person" instead of wasting your time with cranky wallposts (which again, as far as I can see, are more manual exercises in seeing how long you can keyboard-warrior your way out of the discussion, given how poor your arguments and how unsound your logic generally is). The invite is still open.
lord turbo wrote:Its a nonsensical and baseless argument to take, that''s not being open-minded, that's being in denial and narrow-minded, you're mere opinion, I REPEAT YOUR MERE OPINION, does not change this, you're are simply wrong, deal with it. Why would I waste any more time debating a clear cut and shown statement to a stubborn person who can't accept simple straight forward uncontradicted facts. You're pompous, long winded scolding, internet elistism, arrogant, warped, condescending, self-entitled prick attitude to beat around the bush does not and will not change this.
lord turbo wrote:I'm sorry if my in-depth process is nitpicked as step-by-step dissection in your mind, but it honestly feels you need to be beat repeatedly over the head about it until it registers "Hmmm...guess I was wrong." Like Freeza getting stronger post RoF saga where it took a bunch of needlessly posts before you admitted "Huh, I was wrong, Freeza did get stronger." Like really, you friggin think?! Why you do you think I said you like arguing for the sake of arguing?
Posts. Like. These. Are. Not. Acceptable. Here.

These are but a few, cherry-picked examples from posts made in the last dozen or so pages since my previous warning. There are many more. Too many. Our Admins didn't whip up Kanzenshuu's Forum Rules just to waste your time or fill up space while you're registering. You all agreed to them, twice, when signing up here, and are expected to abide by them for the duration of your stay.

We prefer to welcome everyone who wishes to discuss the Dragon Ball franchise to enjoy using the forum for enlightening and entertaining discourse, in a friendly enviroment. However, if you know you can't partake in these types of discussions without remaining civil, polite and treating the other members with an ounce of respect, then perhaps you should excuse yourself from joining the thread(s) in the first place. Otherwise, if you continue to join in discussions on the forum with the attitudes exhibited here, we will unfortunately be making that decision for you.

Moderation is not always handled in public, but sometimes examples need to be set. Account strikes are being issued to those who deserve them. They add up to bans from the entire site; both temporary or permanent. I strongly suggest those of you who receive them review the Forum Rules before you continue posting. Or else you risk losing access to everything the site has to offer.

For everyone else, I'm sorry for locking the thread. Now that I'm done trudging through this mess, it's back open for discussion.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:34 pm

Thanks for unlocking the thread. It would have been a real shame if it was locked over something so petty when most users have enjoyed discussing this kind of thing every day without incident.

Even though I'm not a mod, I do check this thread every day so I will make sure from now on to remind people to stay civil if I see anyone else start to move too far in the wrong direction.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Super Saiyan Turlast x4 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:35 am

Thanks for posting that, TDC. Hopefully this thread can actually start being more chill. I think we all get too caught up in these discussions at times.

Anyway, Jiren is ridiculous.
"First I whip it out! Then I thrust it! With great force! Every angle...! It penetrates! Until...! With great strength...! I... ram it in! In the end... We are all satisfied... And you are set free...!" ~Dante~

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:17 am

This is how I view things, so far:

- Zenou
- Zenou guards
- Grand priest
- Angels
- Jiren
- Goku UI
- Vegetto Blue/Strong GoDs
- Merged Zamasu LoJ/Weaker GoDs
- Goku SSBKKx20
- Merged Zamasu (initial)
- Goku SSBKKx10
- Toppo
- Goku SSBKK
- SSB Goku | SSB Vegeta | True Golden Frieza
- SSR Goku Black (final power up)
- Hit
- SSBerserker Kale | SSI Trunks
- Dyspo
- Android 17
- Ultimate Gohan
- SSG Goku
- Final Form Frieza | Future Zamasu

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:16 am

Whis
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Hit
Kale
Dyspo
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan

Note: There are several characters / transformations below Piccolo but stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), or around that level, that i didn't really bother listing.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:35 am

Zeno / Future Zeno
Dragon God Zarama
Grand Priest
Infinite Zamasu / Multiverse Fusion ( Anime + )
Zeno's Attendants / Angels
Angels / Zeno's Attendants
Top 4 Strongest Gods Of Destruction
Goku Perfected / Mastered Ultra Instinct
Jiren
Remaining Gods Of Destruction
Hit / Vegeta ( Rosat )
Vegeta ( Rosat ) / Hit
Enraged Future Trunks
Toppo / Frieza ( True Golden Form )
Frieza ( True Golden Form ) / Toppo
SS Berserker Kale ( Nerfed )
Ultimate Gohan ( + ) / Android 17
Android 17 /Ultimate Gohan ( + )
Dyspo
....

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by HeroR » Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:39 am

supercat wrote:Whis
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Hit
Kale
Dyspo
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan

Note: There are several characters / transformations below Piccolo but stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), or around that level, that i didn't really bother listing.
This list I agree with, except I am not too sure Merged Zamasu and Vegetto Blue should be below Beerus. I know, not a popular opinion, but I would honestly put them within the same power range since the Kais called Merged Zamasu beyond anything their felt and Gowasu should have a good idea where the Gods of Destruction are. And Merged Zamasu was suppressed at the time. And, as much as I don't want to used the manga for this, Shin put Vegetto Blue within striking range of Beerus.

Also, I think TOP Hit could be above Goku Black since Goku said Hit got stronger since 72. I also personally feel Kale is too high, but I can't really argue her placement. Btw, true form Freeza should be below base form Goku and Vegeta going off of Resurrection 'F', not equal.

Not saying that your list is wrong, but something to considered.
Kanassa wrote:
precita wrote:Goku will still be around but take a Buu saga approach backseat.
Goku barely took a backseat in the Buu saga, at best he took a leisurely stroll round back while everyone else cried for him to come back.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ChiefWamsutta » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:17 am

STH wrote: In my opinion they are separate things.
Like Mystic/ultimate Gohan and Base Gohan.

Base Goku is as strong as Goku in Buu Saga.
Beyond God (/God-like) Goku is far stronger than SSJ3 Goku in Buu saga.
I agree with you. I don't think the staff and writers intended it to happen, but it needs to happen.

In my opinion, after losing SSGod, Goku gained God-enhanced Saiyan and God-enhanced Super Saiyan.

The training with Whis allows for greater Ki control and he morphed God-enhanced Saiyan into SSGod and God-enhanced Super Saiyan into SSBlue.

Base < SS1 < SS2 < SS3 << God-enhanced Saiyan < God-enhanced Super Saiyan < SSGod < SSBlue < SSBlue Kaioken << Ultra Instinct

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Wed Oct 18, 2017 3:29 am

ChiefWamsutta wrote:In my opinion, after losing SSGod, Goku gained God-enhanced Saiyan and God-enhanced Super Saiyan.

The training with Whis allows for greater Ki control and he morphed God-enhanced Saiyan into SSGod and God-enhanced Super Saiyan into SSBlue.
I thought this line would explain why Goku's Base (and Super Saiyan) forms were stronger than before even if they weren't as Strong as Super Saiyan God.

"It seems that when you fought me in God form your body learned from the experience, merely feeling that level of power was enough to push you to new heights. So now even though your God form has expired, your power is much greater than before."
— Beerus

I don't know accurate it is to any Japanese translation but it would make a lot of sense.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:50 am

Now that we've arrived at the halfway mark of the tournament, I suppose it's as good a time as ever to post my personal tier list. Keep in mind that I didn't have a lot to go by for a lot of these newer characters in the tournament, so don't take most of those placements in particular too seriously as they're largely tentative guesswork and could change at any time.

[spoiler]Important: This tier list subscribes to (and operates from) three chief ideas -- 1.) that the base strength of Goku and Vegeta has been retconned from God-level down to being only marginally above their Buu Saga levels at some point during the story, presumably to make all scales between mediums consistent, 2.) that certain strategies and special abilities (such as Hit's Time-Skip) can allow one to outperform characters who are much higher than them on the list, and 3.) that the power scales of the anime, manga, and Toriyama's drafts are (more or less) the same, barring any medium-exclusive forms. If you disagree with any of these interpretations at their basic premise, you're probably not going to agree with much of anything in this list; I'd advise moving along in that case.


Color Code:
Anime-only characters/forms are highlighted in blue.
Manga-only characters/forms are highlighted in red.
Retconned characters/forms are highlighted in green.


Elder God Tier

Zeno

Higher God Tier

Great Priest
Vados
Whis
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Champa
Vegito Blue
Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku (X20)
Fused Zamasu (Half-Corrupted)

God Tier

Super Saiyan Blue Kaioken Goku
Toppo
Sidra
Fused Zamasu
Super Saiyan Blue Goku | Super Saiyan Blue Vegeta | Golden Frieza
Super Saiyan Rosé Goku Black
Super Saiyan Rage Trunks
Hit
Dyspo (Speed-Enhanced)
Super Saiyan God Goku | Super Saiyan God Vegeta
Saiyan Beyond God Goku | Saiyan Beyond God Vegeta
Final Form Frieza

Top Tier

Super Saiyan Goku Black
Super Vegito
Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta (Strengthened)
Beerus (Below 10%)

High Tier

Goku Black
Super Saiyan 3 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Trunks (Strengthened)
Obuni
Slim Buu
Majin Buu
Piccolo
Rubalt
Super Saiyan 2 Trunks
Super Saiyan 2 Goku | Super Saiyan 2 Vegeta | Super Saiyan 2 Gohan
Super Saiyan 2 Caulifla
Zamasu
Basil (Drug-Enhanced)

Mid Tier

Super Saiyan Trunks
Super Saiyan Goku | Super Saiyan Vegeta | Super Saiyan Gohan
Super Saiyan Caulifla
Super Saiyan Cabba
Maji=Kayo
Magetta
Final Form Frost
Tagoma
Android 18
Kahseral
Tupper
Zoiray
Vuon
Cocotte
Kettol
Shosa
Murichim
Napapa
Jimeze
Nink

Low Tier

Trunks
Goku | Vegeta | Gohan
Caulifla
Cabba
Bergamo
Basil
Lavender
Ribrianne
Kakunsa
Rozie
Hop
Hyssop
Chappil
Comfrey
Botamo
Oregano
Roselle
Narirama
Master Roshi (Talisman-Enhanced)
The Preecho

Bottom Tier

Majora
Krillin
Tien
Hermila
Master Roshi
Avian Ganos
Vikal
Nigrisshi
Ganos
Dercori
Jirasen
Jilcol
Lilibeu
Shisami
Dr. Rota
Prum
Caway
Gryll
Jium
Methiop
Murisam
Kale
Sorel
Jaco

Fluctuant Tier

Giant Bergamo
Arale

Unknown / TBD

Legendary Super Saiyan Kale
Ultimate Gohan
Android 17
Kunshi[/spoiler]

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by pacz360 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:56 am

Bullza wrote:So when Ultra Instinct Goku and Jiren clashed fists are we supposed to believe that Goku is still utilising that technique he learned when fighting Beerus to cancel out the shockwaves?

That Goku and Beerus fight still seems like it was fought on the biggest scale. Kinda odd that those two had a beam struggle and almost destroyed the universe but then Goku and Merged Zamasu had one and nothing.
-Cause ki control
-And neither were aiming to destroy the universe especially zamasu
Seriously you not gonna have this shit happened on 24/7 bases cause it'll be redundant

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Hugo Boss » Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:29 am

Marlowe89 wrote:Now that we've arrived at the halfway mark of the tournament, I suppose it's as good a time as ever to post my personal tier list. Keep in mind that I didn't have a lot to go by for a lot of these newer characters in the tournament, so don't take most of those placements in particular too seriously as they're largely tentative guesswork and could change at any time.
This is the closest list to my personal opinion. I would just bump Maji Kayo to high tier, because Goku apparently couldn't break his hold as a normal Super Saiyan.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by perucho1990 » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:08 am

So after checking chapter 29 spoilers.

Toppo wouldve defeated Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit? Seems to be part of the outline Toppo being above Blue.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by emperior » Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:14 am

Here's my tier list:
悟 “Vincit qui se vincit”

What I consider canonical

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by SansrivaaL » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:11 pm

perucho1990 wrote:So after checking chapter 29 spoilers.

Toppo wouldve defeated Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit? Seems to be part of the outline Toppo being above Blue.
Blue probably? SSJBKK is an anime exclusive only gig, it does not exist in the manga.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:19 pm

How often is it necessary to state that anime and manga have different powescaling? Just because Toppo defeated MSSB goku, does it mean that in the anime he is also stronger than Goku Blue?
so in the anime Goku SSB KK x10 = Merged Zamasu just because in manga Goku MSSB = Merged Zamasu?

Goku himself said he did not know if Toppo would win against the Blue form (in the anime). So that means he could win or not (This shows that Toppo was not reportedly stronger than Goku Blue)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:22 pm

SansrivaaL wrote:
perucho1990 wrote:So after checking chapter 29 spoilers.

Toppo wouldve defeated Kaiokenx20 Goku and Hit? Seems to be part of the outline Toppo being above Blue.
Blue probably? SSJBKK is an anime exclusive only gig, it does not exist in the manga.
Yeah, and there's not really a benchmark to compare them since villain power levels differ so much and Kaioken Goku never fought Toppo.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:39 pm

HeroR wrote:
supercat wrote:Whis
Jiren
Ultra Instinct Goku
Beerus
Merged Zamasu > / = SSB Vegetto
SSB Goku Kaioken x20
SSB Goku Kaioken x10
SSB Goku = Golden Frieza >/= Toppo > / = SSB Vegeta
Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black
Future Trunks (full power)
Hit
Kale
Dyspo
Android 17
Ultimate Gohan
Future Zamasu
Ritual form Goku
SSJ Goku / Vegeta
Base Goku / Vegeta = Final Form Frieza
Final Form Frost
Piccolo
SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga)
Buuhan

Note: There are several characters / transformations below Piccolo but stronger than SSJ Vegetto (Buu saga), or around that level, that i didn't really bother listing.
This list I agree with, except I am not too sure Merged Zamasu and Vegetto Blue should be below Beerus. I know, not a popular opinion, but I would honestly put them within the same power range since the Kais called Merged Zamasu beyond anything their felt and Gowasu should have a good idea where the Gods of Destruction are. And Merged Zamasu was suppressed at the time. And, as much as I don't want to used the manga for this, Shin put Vegetto Blue within striking range of Beerus.

Also, I think TOP Hit could be above Goku Black since Goku said Hit got stronger since 72. I also personally feel Kale is too high, but I can't really argue her placement. Btw, true form Freeza should be below base form Goku and Vegeta going off of Resurrection 'F', not equal.

Not saying that your list is wrong, but something to considered.
Those are all really good points.

Actually yeah, I have a really hard time figuring out where to place Merged Zamasu. But I do agree that Beerus, Merged Zamasu, and SSB Vegetto can all be within the same tier of power.

Hit is also confusing since the time skip ability really ups the overall performance. Power-wise I could change Hit and Goku Black and it would still make sense I suppose. I just feel Hit isn't quite at Golden Frieza / SSB Goku / Vegeta tier in terms of sheer strength. What do you think?

As for Kale, putting her around Android 17 would also work.

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