Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Dreamer]

Kale was established as Blue tier in both anime and manga.

Agreed.

The fact that Goku felt the need to transform and use SSB's power instead of SSG and/or SSj3 says otherwise she could hang in the Blue Tier.

[dragon boss z]

Kale was established as Blue tier in both anime and manga.

Agreed.

The fact that Goku felt the need to transform and use SSB's power instead of SSG and/or SSj3 says otherwise she could hang in the Blue Tier.

While I see where you are coming from, what is the reason she couldn't beat a tired SSG Goku later? Super is very inconsistent and hard to scale. Also I think we should wait until next chapter to say for sure, because Frieza seemed angry that Goku butted in and was kind of taken off guard, and Goku did get a hit on her. So for all we know she may start losing to Goku or Frieza next chapter, though I kind of doubt that is going to happen. As of now I would definitely say she is somewhere in the got tier of power.

[PFM18]

Kale was established as Blue tier in both anime and manga.

Agreed.

The fact that Goku felt the need to transform and use SSB's power instead of SSG and/or SSj3 says otherwise she could hang in the Blue Tier.

Not in the anime. In the SSB Goku vs Kale bout there were 3 indications he was suppressed.

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little" or something like that. Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.

This is later confirmed when an exhausted SSG Goku dominates Kale

[Marlowe89]

It's buried underneath a pile of tweets, but Herms took some time to translate the final panel of the chapter:

This is probably the first time Kale has unleashed her own power. She’s losing her reason as the vast power engulfs her. If she loses control like this, this won’t even be a match anymore.

This seems to fall in line with what I said earlier about Kale presumably growing increasingly stronger the more berserk she becomes, which could explain the apparent discrepancies in the anime. It's interesting to note that there's been a few "fluctuant" type fighters recently in the series like Giant Bergamo in the anime or Ribrianne in the manga, to name a couple.

[Miracles]

While I see where you are coming from, what is the reason she couldn't beat a tired SSG Goku later? Super is very inconsistent and hard to scale. Also I think we should wait until next chapter to say for sure, because Frieza seemed angry that Goku butted in and was kind of taken off guard, and Goku did get a hit on her. So for all we know she may start losing to Goku or Frieza next chapter, though I kind of doubt that is going to happen. As of now I would definitely say she is somewhere in the got tier of power.

Not in the anime. In the SSB Goku vs Kale bout there were 3 indications he was suppressed.

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little" or something like that. Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.

This is later confirmed when an exhausted SSG Goku dominates Kale

Goku broke his limits after the Jiren fight. He became stronger, evidenced by Caulifla stating this isn't the same SSJ2 Goku she faced before.
Not to mention Goku himself was regaining strength and stamina as he fought against them proven by the fact he could go god mode and beyond.
So the girls were fighting a stronger Goku later. Kale never lost to a stronger red Goku either, Caulifla did but the fight was even with Kale.

[dragon boss z]

Goku broke his limits after the Jiren fight. He became stronger, evidenced by Caulifla stating this isn't the same SSJ2 Goku she faced before.
Not to mention Goku himself was regaining strength and stamina as he fought against them proven by the fact he could go god mode and beyond.
So the girls were fighting a stronger Goku later. Kale never lost to a stronger red Goku either, Caulifla did but the fight was even with Kale.

So you think that tired version of SSG Goku was stronger than a rested SSB Goku? Even if Goku got stronger during the tournament (I do think he did get a bit stronger) I don't think that's enough to put his red form while still tired above his fresh blue form at the beginning.
Also Kale kind of did lose to SSG as she was knocked off the stadium. So while she didn't get completely defeated like Caulifla, a ring out is still a loss and SSG did seem to have the slight advantage during the fight.
Not to mention it was also stated Kale got stronger as well.

[Dreamer]

While I see where you are coming from, what is the reason she couldn't beat a tired SSG Goku later?

Despite Kale holding her own and even able to trade blow for blow with SSG Goku, it should be noted that the Goku that Kale faced then after unlocking UI isn't the same Goku that fought (Berserker) Kale the first time. Goku is shown getting stronger and improving throughout the Tournament Of Power to the point where his SSB would normally get blinked by Jiren was now fighting better, faster, more precise, and attacks are heavier than before said by Jiren, for an example.

Edit: Fixing mistakes.

[PFM18]

While I see where you are coming from, what is the reason she couldn't beat a tired SSG Goku later? Super is very inconsistent and hard to scale. Also I think we should wait until next chapter to say for sure, because Frieza seemed angry that Goku butted in and was kind of taken off guard, and Goku did get a hit on her. So for all we know she may start losing to Goku or Frieza next chapter, though I kind of doubt that is going to happen. As of now I would definitely say she is somewhere in the got tier of power.

Not in the anime. In the SSB Goku vs Kale bout there were 3 indications he was suppressed.

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little" or something like that. Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.

This is later confirmed when an exhausted SSG Goku dominates Kale

Goku broke his limits after the Jiren fight. He became stronger, evidenced by Caulifla stating this isn't the same SSJ2 Goku she faced before.
Not to mention Goku himself was regaining strength and stamina as he fought against them proven by the fact he could go god mode and beyond.
So the girls were fighting a stronger Goku later. Kale never lost to a stronger red Goku either, Caulifla did but the fight was even with Kale.

The "broken limits" was explaining the power boost that was obtained when Goku ascended to UI each time. It does not apply to his normal power and other transformations. UI was established to just be a technique, so this was the explanation as to why it was a transformation that yielded a power boost too. If you consider these "broken limits" to just be his power in general, then it would make no sense for his UI to give him a power boost on top of this.

He very well may have become stronger, but that doesn't mean he wasn't heavily suppressed against Kale the first time. He fought a stronger Kale in an inferior form and had better results than the first time. For the 3 reasons I gave before, the story tells us Goku was holding back.(The scene was not there to show Kale's overwhelming power but rather to give homage to M8.)

And yes, Kale was losing to SSG Goku. She was stronger than Caulifla and put up a much better fight than her, but she was still losing.

[Dragon Wukong]

Personally I just label the anime as inconsistent. No one can really be anywhere because Kale can be fighting Blue Goku one second (mind you Goku used God instead of Blue against Dyspo later because he had to "save stamina") yet "powers up" and starts losing to a tired God Goku. It's nonsensical.

That being said, the manga does tend to be easier to pin down and more consistent (seeing as it's written by a single guy and edited by Toriyama.) I would effectively place a Berserker Kale (at least in the manga) on a tier similar to that of Toppo, based on this chapter.

[PFM18]

Personally I just label the anime as inconsistent. No one can really be anywhere because Kale can be fighting Blue Goku one second (mind you Goku used God instead of Blue against Dyspo later because he had to "save stamina") yet "powers up" and starts losing to a tired God Goku. It's nonsensical.

That being said, the manga does tend to be easier to pin down and more consistent (seeing as it's written by a single guy and edited by Toriyama.) I would effectively place a Berserker Kale (at least in the manga) on a tier similar to that of Toppo, based on this chapter.

There's nothing nonsensical about it. The story clearly explains the discrepancy. Like I said, for several reasons, you can tell Goku was holding back in the first encounter as a SSB.

[Miracles]

So you think that tired version of SSG Goku was stronger than a rested SSB Goku? Even if Goku got stronger during the tournament (I do think he did get a bit stronger) I don't think that's enough to put his red form while still tired above his fresh blue form at the beginning.
Also Kale kind of did lose to SSG as she was knocked off the stadium. So while she didn't get completely defeated like Caulifla, a ring out is still a loss and SSG did seem to have the slight advantage during the fight.
Not to mention it was also stated Kale got stronger as well.

Kale didn't get physically forced by Goku off the stadium that only happened cause Caulifla suggested to fuse.
Red Goku and Kale were evenly trading blows and even when Kale ran to Caulifla's aid she was still ready to fight.
Yes Goku's red form was stronger than his blue back against Kale cause he kept breaking his limits as the U7 audience stated and was able to physically fight toe-to-toe against a stronger Kale.

The "broken limits" was explaining the power boost that was obtained when Goku ascended to UI each time. It does not apply to his normal power and other transformations. UI was established to just be a technique, so this was the explanation as to why it was a transformation that yielded a power boost too. If you consider these "broken limits" to just be his power in general, then it would make no sense for his UI to give him a power boost on top of this.

He very well may have become stronger, but that doesn't mean he wasn't heavily suppressed against Kale the first time. He fought a stronger Kale in an inferior form and had better results than the first time. For the 3 reasons I gave before, the story tells us Goku was holding back.(The scene was not there to show Kale's overwhelming power but rather to give homage to M8.)

And yes, Kale was losing to SSG Goku. She was stronger than Caulifla and put up a much better fight than her, but she was still losing.

Kale never was losing to a stronger overall Goku, she was not fatigued or even damaged in that fight. Goku's overall power increases after each limit break evidenced by the fact that the U7 stance was stating he was showing power beyond his limits, Caulifla even stated his SSJ2 was stronger than before. It's just not for UI. Also Goku was not holding back the first time against Kale cause he couldn't even break out of her grip, AT ALL. Even Gohan and Piccolo were worried and was going to help Goku but he was saved cause Kale couldn't control her power.

[dragon boss z]

While I see where you are coming from, what is the reason she couldn't beat a tired SSG Goku later?

Despite Kale holding her own and even able to trade blow to blow with SSG Goku, it should be noted that the Goku that Kale faced then isn't the same Goku that fought Jiren the first time. Goku is shown getting stronger and improving throughout the Tournament Of Power to the point where his SSB would normally get blinked by Jiren was now fighting better, faster, more precise, and attacks are heavier than before said by Jiren.

Yes, but Kale got stronger as well. And we saw against Jiren SSB seemed quite a bit stronger than SSG.

Kale didn't get physically forced by Goku off the stadium that only happened cause Caulifla suggested to fuse.
Red Goku and Kale were evenly trading blows and even when Kale ran to Caulifla's aid she was still ready to fight.
Yes Goku's red form was stronger than his blue back against Kale cause he kept breaking his limits as the U7 audience stated and was able to physically fight toe-to-toe against a stronger Kale.

While Kale put up a fight, Goku clearly held the advantage flying through one of her attacks while Kale barely managed to hold of a casual ki blast from Goku. Goku even said before almost knocking them off that it was pretty much over and they should try again when they get stronger. Goku wouldn't have said that if he thought he was even with Kale.

[Dreamer]

Not in the anime. In the SSB Goku vs Kale bout there were 3 indications he was suppressed.

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little" or something like that. Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.

This is later confirmed when an exhausted SSG Goku dominates Kale

Goku said he was going to let out more power, not power up a little.

Regardless if Goku wasn't shown battle damage, he at the same time was shown he couldn't hurt or stop Kale using SSj2 transformation, at all. The latter shows that Goku needed more power to keep up the pace, or else... It doesn't mean that version of SSB Goku was going all-out, it just means Kale has the potential to push Goku into using SSB's power(and possibly even more) and showed that she can.

Yes, but Kale got stronger as well. And we saw against Jiren SSB seemed quite a bit stronger than SSG.

Yes, Kale got stronger but we really don't know how strong she got compared to Goku who broke through more limit barriers than Kale.

Edit: fixed small mistakes.

[Simere]

Not in the anime. In the SSB Goku vs Kale bout there were 3 indications he was suppressed.

1. After the battle he has no battle damage and doesn't seem worried at all.
2. Jiren one shots her but Goku isn't intimidated at all and challenges Jiren immediately afterwards.(Implying he could have done the same.)
3. When Goku went from SSJ2 -> SSB he said "I'll power up a little" or something like that. Implying he wasn't that far beyond his max output in SSJ2.

This is later confirmed when an exhausted SSG Goku dominates Kale

Goku said he was going to let out more power, not power up a little.

He used the word chotto, which means a bit/little.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

The way I see it, Kale's Berserk SS form is fueled purely by rage and adrenaline and allows her to simply IGNORE damage and pain. She never actually lands a hit on SSB Goku, she just grabs him by the face and throws him away.

It could be that she simply walked through his Kamehameha due to this rush of adrenaline allowing her to ignore Goku's power.

The form isn't stable and quickly drains Kale of her power, meaning that in a prolonged fight, she can't rely on it. So, whilst technically weaker, her mutant SS2 form is still better overall because she has better stamina and energy control.

[BlueBasilisk]

Part of the problem with Kale is that you have characters like Toppo and Hit commenting on her monstrous power and Jiren personally stepping in to stop her which doesn't make sense if she's only between SS3 and SSG, especially since Toppo and Hit both poopooed SSB. And her SS2 is supposedly stronger but it performs worse against SS2 Goku than Berserk did. Goku's attacks couldn't even budge her. I don't think I buy that it actually is the stronger of the two. More effective, yes, since it can be controlled but that just leads to a whole different problem where Kale got her Berserk power under control in 101 but suddenly didn't in 114.

I also felt like those episodes were pushing way too hard with their Goku wanking, especially with the peanut gallery commentary.

[Lord Beerus]

Part of the problem with Kale is that you have characters like Toppo and Hit commenting on her monstrous power and Jiren personally stepping in to stop her which doesn't make sense if she's only between SS3 and SSG, especially since Toppo and Hit both poopooed SSB. And her SS2 is supposedly stronger but it performs worse against SS2 Goku than Berserk did. Goku's attacks couldn't even budge her. I don't think I buy that it actually is the stronger of the two. More effective, yes, since it can be controlled but that just leads to a whole different problem where Kale got her Berserk power under control in 101 but suddenly didn't in 114.

I also felt like those episodes were pushing way too hard with their Goku wanking, especially with the peanut gallery commentary.

Didn't Kale use here regular SSJ form when fighting SSJ2 Goku? And then after getting nowhere with that, she went Beserk, controlled her strength and then Goku went SSJG in response?

[majinwarman]

Part of the problem with Kale is that you have characters like Toppo and Hit commenting on her monstrous power and Jiren personally stepping in to stop her which doesn't make sense if she's only between SS3 and SSG, especially since Toppo and Hit both poopooed SSB. And her SS2 is supposedly stronger but it performs worse against SS2 Goku than Berserk did. Goku's attacks couldn't even budge her. I don't think I buy that it actually is the stronger of the two. More effective, yes, since it can be controlled but that just leads to a whole different problem where Kale got her Berserk power under control in 101 but suddenly didn't in 114.

I also felt like those episodes were pushing way too hard with their Goku wanking, especially with the peanut gallery commentary.

Didn't Kale use here regular SSJ form when fighting SSJ2 Goku? And then after getting nowhere with that, she went Beserk, controlled her strength and then Goku went SSJG in response?

I think so but I may be misremembering the fight.

[BlueBasilisk]

Part of the problem with Kale is that you have characters like Toppo and Hit commenting on her monstrous power and Jiren personally stepping in to stop her which doesn't make sense if she's only between SS3 and SSG, especially since Toppo and Hit both poopooed SSB. And her SS2 is supposedly stronger but it performs worse against SS2 Goku than Berserk did. Goku's attacks couldn't even budge her. I don't think I buy that it actually is the stronger of the two. More effective, yes, since it can be controlled but that just leads to a whole different problem where Kale got her Berserk power under control in 101 but suddenly didn't in 114.

I also felt like those episodes were pushing way too hard with their Goku wanking, especially with the peanut gallery commentary.

Didn't Kale use here regular SSJ form when fighting SSJ2 Goku? And then after getting nowhere with that, she went Beserk, controlled her strength and then Goku went SSJG in response?

She used both. After Goku went SS3, she powered up to Berserk, then went SS2, then they fought him again for a little while. Goku went SSG after Caulifla anticipated his Instant Transmission.

[Lord Beerus]

Part of the problem with Kale is that you have characters like Toppo and Hit commenting on her monstrous power and Jiren personally stepping in to stop her which doesn't make sense if she's only between SS3 and SSG, especially since Toppo and Hit both poopooed SSB. And her SS2 is supposedly stronger but it performs worse against SS2 Goku than Berserk did. Goku's attacks couldn't even budge her. I don't think I buy that it actually is the stronger of the two. More effective, yes, since it can be controlled but that just leads to a whole different problem where Kale got her Berserk power under control in 101 but suddenly didn't in 114.

I also felt like those episodes were pushing way too hard with their Goku wanking, especially with the peanut gallery commentary.

Didn't Kale use here regular SSJ form when fighting SSJ2 Goku? And then after getting nowhere with that, she went Beserk, controlled her strength and then Goku went SSJG in response?

She used both. After Goku went SS3, she powered up to Berserk, then went SS2, then they fought him again for a little while. Goku went SSG after Caulifla anticipated his Instant Transmission.

Did Kale actually achieve SSJ2? I always thought she basically achieved the equivalent of mastered SSJ given she just reverts back to her SSJ appearance after controlling her SSJ Beserker power.