Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Hugo Boss]

If Vegeta always has this sort of gain when he concentrates his ki for a Final Flash, why was this one so notable? Why was everyone surprised? Why would Piccolo literally explicitly state that this was a result of Jiren inciting his pride? Is Piccolo just dumb or something?

This one is notable because Vegeta was at his limit and suddenly he raised up beyond it. Originally, final flash is charged like that, but sometimes he uses a less charged version, like Goku does with kamehameha.

[PFM18]

If Vegeta always has this sort of gain when he concentrates his ki for a Final Flash, why was this one so notable? Why was everyone surprised? Why would Piccolo literally explicitly state that this was a result of Jiren inciting his pride? Is Piccolo just dumb or something?

This one is notable because Vegeta was at his limit and suddenly he raised up beyond it. Originally, final flash is charged like that, but sometimes he uses a less charged version, like Goku does with kamehameha.

It was notable because Vegeta gets a power boost from Jiren insulting his pride. It isn't left ambiguous because it is literally explained to us by Piccolo. We aren't left to guess and come up with head canon for it.

[Miracles]

Their battle power IS their ki. The term "power level" is literally just a measurement of their ki. And that doesn't actually address anything that was said prior. If Vegeta always has this sort of gain when he concentrates his ki for a Final Flash, why was this one so notable? Why was everyone surprised? Why would Piccolo literally explicitly state that this was a result of Jiren inciting his pride? Is Piccolo just dumb or something? None of this would have been true if this was just another generic Finial Flash that increases your power every time. That makes no sense, you're ignoring the context surrounding the scene and portraying it as something that it clearly isn't.

No you are just making it more than what it is by not considering the context. The Final Flash is the result of Jiren stirring up Vegeta's pride by insulting him. It's no different from everyone commenting on Vegeta's final Flash against Cell. I know Ki is battle power but that battle power [Ki] rises when one focuses it into a final attack.

[PFM18]

Their battle power IS their ki. The term "power level" is literally just a measurement of their ki. And that doesn't actually address anything that was said prior. If Vegeta always has this sort of gain when he concentrates his ki for a Final Flash, why was this one so notable? Why was everyone surprised? Why would Piccolo literally explicitly state that this was a result of Jiren inciting his pride? Is Piccolo just dumb or something? None of this would have been true if this was just another generic Finial Flash that increases your power every time. That makes no sense, you're ignoring the context surrounding the scene and portraying it as something that it clearly isn't.

No you are just making it more than what it is by not considering the context. The Final Flash is the result of Jiren inciting Vegeta's pride. No different from everyone commenting on Vegeta's final Flash against Cell. I know Ki is battle power but that battle power rises when one focuses it into a final attack. See Piccolo vs radditz etc.

No You're not considering the context. You are looking at this from the scope of "Oh this is just another Final Flash and those increase people's power!" When Piccolo literally tells us otherwise. This one is notable and different, and that is why all the fuss is made over and not all of the other numerous Final Flashes Vegeta uses in the ToP.

[Miracles]

No You're not considering the context. You are looking at this from the scope of "Oh this is just another Final Flash and those increase people's power!" When Piccolo literally tells us otherwise. This one is notable and different, and that is why all the fuss is made over and not all of the other numerous Final Flashes Vegeta uses in the ToP.

It's you who doesn't consider context. The grand priest and even Vegeta himself state that he only breaks his limits after the FF not before. Piccolo never says this.

[PFM18]

No You're not considering the context. You are looking at this from the scope of "Oh this is just another Final Flash and those increase people's power!" When Piccolo literally tells us otherwise. This one is notable and different, and that is why all the fuss is made over and not all of the other numerous Final Flashes Vegeta uses in the ToP.

It's you who doesn't consider context. The grand priest and even Vegeta himself state that he only breaks his limits after the FF not before. Piccolo never says this.

Piccolo said that he drew out more power because Jiren incited his pride. Not "Vegeta's power increased because he used the Final Flash and that increases your power every time!" What the hell does SSBE have to do with anything??

[Miracles]

Piccolo said that he drew out more power because Jiren incited his pride. Not "Vegeta's power increased because he used the Final Flash and that increases your power every time!" What the hell does SSBE have to do with anything??

Powering up a final flash is drawing out more power. It raises overall battle power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Piccolo said that he drew out more power because Jiren incited his pride. Not "Vegeta's power increased because he used the Final Flash and that increases your power every time!" What the hell does SSBE have to do with anything??

Powering up a final flash is drawing out more power. It raises overall battle power.

It could be that Vegeta's awakened pride allowed him to power up his Final Flash past its normal limits, much like how Goku's Full-Power Kamehameha was able to overpower Merged Zamasu.

[Hugo Boss]

If Vegeta always has this sort of gain when he concentrates his ki for a Final Flash, why was this one so notable? Why was everyone surprised? Why would Piccolo literally explicitly state that this was a result of Jiren inciting his pride? Is Piccolo just dumb or something?

This one is notable because Vegeta was at his limit and suddenly he raised up beyond it. Originally, final flash is charged like that, but sometimes he uses a less charged version, like Goku does with kamehameha.

It was notable because Vegeta gets a power boost from Jiren insulting his pride. It isn't left ambiguous because it is literally explained to us by Piccolo. We aren't left to guess and come up with head canon for it.

As Vermoud commented, Vegeta shouldn’t have energy left to even stand but he is letting out more energy than before. So, it is notable for someone who isn’t used to Saiyan battles, but as expected Piccolo perfectly understands it.

[RecolorSaiyan]

Final flash at most amps your power 3-4 times, if vegeta didn't get any stronger than his FF wouldn't even sniff the level of kkx20 goku from the special, meaning nobody from u7 should have had ANY confidence that attack would have worked when he fired it

[PFM18]

This one is notable because Vegeta was at his limit and suddenly he raised up beyond it. Originally, final flash is charged like that, but sometimes he uses a less charged version, like Goku does with kamehameha.

It was notable because Vegeta gets a power boost from Jiren insulting his pride. It isn't left ambiguous because it is literally explained to us by Piccolo. We aren't left to guess and come up with head canon for it.

As Vermoud commented, Vegeta shouldn’t have energy left to even stand but he is letting out more energy than before. So, it is notable for someone who isn’t used to Saiyan battles, but as expected Piccolo perfectly understands it.

I don't think that's really the intention of the dialogue. The dialogue is establishing that Vegeta got a big power boost because Jiren incited his pride. Ya know, since that's what Piccolo said.

Final flash at most amps your power 3-4 times, if vegeta didn't get any stronger than his FF wouldn't even sniff the level of kkx20 goku from the special, meaning nobody from u7 should have had ANY confidence that attack would have worked when he fired it

Yeah if it was a normal Final Flash it wouldn't have been such a big deal, there wouldn't have been so much commotion, and it sure as hell would not have initially knocked Jiren down.

[ZombieVito]

Piccolo said that he drew out more power because Jiren incited his pride. Not "Vegeta's power increased because he used the Final Flash and that increases your power every time!" What the hell does SSBE have to do with anything??

Powering up a final flash is drawing out more power. It raises overall battle power.

It could be that Vegeta's awakened pride allowed him to power up his Final Flash past its normal limits, much like how Goku's Full-Power Kamehameha was able to overpower Merged Zamasu.

Hence the term limit breaking attack. Piccolo and Roshi did the same thing in the ToP.

Piccolo literally did a Makankosappo that is hundreds/thousands of times stronger than the one he normal does to beat Saonel and Pirina.

Vegeta did the same with that Final Flash.

[Hugo Boss]

It was notable because Vegeta gets a power boost from Jiren insulting his pride. It isn't left ambiguous because it is literally explained to us by Piccolo. We aren't left to guess and come up with head canon for it.

As Vermoud commented, Vegeta shouldn’t have energy left to even stand but he is letting out more energy than before. So, it is notable for someone who isn’t used to Saiyan battles, but as expected Piccolo perfectly understands it.

I don't think that's really the intention of the dialogue. The dialogue is establishing that Vegeta got a big power boost because Jiren incited his pride. Ya know, since that's what Piccolo said.

Not saying Piccolo is wrong. He just offered an explanation that doesn’t count every factor that makes that power-up considerable, main factor being that the pride which Jiren insulted is Vegeta’s, a character known to be prideful, gifted and that does justice to that famous Saiyan ability of overcoming issues. Other characters would require more than the pride being insulted.

[Bergamo]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

Isn't the fact that the body has limits something Toriyama said applies to all the characters before, and that Ki is the means of surpassing those purely physical limits?

It isn't exactly new information. Whenever our heroes train, they train their bodies because this also improves their Ki, thus making them stronger than before without necessarily giving them bigger muscles and whatnot.

Physically speaking, Goku has only gone past what the original series had via the god forms and Ultra Instinct; his Ki amplification is another story entirely.

[ekrolo2]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

That line only really makes sense ignoring all post Boo arc stuff. After the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta train like crazy for 7 years and they aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his pre Ultimate peak. The only reason Goku gets a significant edge is thanks to SS3.

[Doctor.]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

That line only really makes sense ignoring all post Boo arc stuff. After the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta train like crazy for 7 years and they aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his pre Ultimate peak. The only reason Goku gets a significant edge is thanks to SS3.

The line can still make sense if you believe Toei retconned their base to ~Boo arc levels following RoF and ignoring the copy-Vegeta filler.

[PFM18]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

that could work in the manga continuity

[Bergamo]

Goku said in the Cell Saga that he had trained his body to its limit. Trunks in the future trunks arc said that Goku and Vegeta had trained their bodies to their limit.

Is it fair to say that
Base Goku(Cell Saga) = Base Goku(FT Arc)
And that the only remaining factors are transformations and ki power.

That line only really makes sense ignoring all post Boo arc stuff. After the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta train like crazy for 7 years and they aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his pre Ultimate peak. The only reason Goku gets a significant edge is thanks to SS3.

The line can still make sense if you believe Toei retconned their base to ~Boo arc levels following RoF and ignoring the copy-Vegeta filler.

This is based on statements from the DBS Manga.

[Doctor.]

That line only really makes sense ignoring all post Boo arc stuff. After the Cell Games, Goku and Vegeta train like crazy for 7 years and they aren't much stronger than Gohan was at his pre Ultimate peak. The only reason Goku gets a significant edge is thanks to SS3.

The line can still make sense if you believe Toei retconned their base to ~Boo arc levels following RoF and ignoring the copy-Vegeta filler.

This is based on statements from the DBS Manga.

Oh, works even better there then since there's no reason to assume their base got much stronger.