Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

We know NOW that SS1 Goku is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. His Base is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. This doesn't excuse the continuity issue though. I wish they just had Goku go back to SS1 against Beerus and he couldn't touch Beerus. Then he taps into SSGod again and can use it from then on (the instances of a super strong Base that we thought were SBG would be SSGod).

Well they also said that the Super Saiyan Goku who Beerus fought was no weaker than when he was a Super Saiyan God. Of course now we know that isn't true at all so how does it get explained?

Beerus said that the power of Super Saiyan God was still burning brightly inside him even after he reverted to Super Saiyan. So I suppose even though his form changed, he still had that same power the whole time.

After which that power just didn't burn brightly in his Super Saiyan forms. Which would make it some weird one off occurrence where Goku had the power of a Super Saiyan God without looking like one, perhaps due to the form becoming a part of him for the first time or something.

[AvatarReiko]

Do people still believe Saiyan Beyond God is/was a thing or does the form-progression artistry against Jiren and Caulifla show what's going on now?

Someone here suggested that Saiyan Beyond God was an unmastered Super Saiyan God (aka whatever Goku absorbed at the end of BoG) of which Goku just now got the actual form back for. I guess that's reasonable until Base Goku shows himself to be stronger than a SSJ3 again...?

I am still trying to figure what it even is and how it fits. The problem i have with it is that it makes 4th Form Frieza look weak as f. If Goku wasn't using god power at the time and it was all his base, then he shouldn't have needed to go SSJB at all. Considering that his base was already overpowering Frieza, his regular SSJ from would have rekt him since it's 50x boost. Further, having Frieza overpowered by Base Goku would make him weaker than Base Cabba, who was even with Vegeta. It's all just a bit confusing to me.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From what we've got so far, it seems as though Vegito was approximately "SSG multiplied by SSB" in terms of numerical power.

That means that a God of Destruction is around that level of strength, maybe a bit lower, as would be Jiren, maybe a little lower/higher/the same.

[dragon boss z]

From what we've got so far, it seems as though Vegito was approximately "SSG multiplied by SSB" in terms of numerical power.

Wait what? You are saying the power level of SSG x SSB? If SSG was lowballed to the max it still has to be in the billions, and so you are saying Vegito is billions of times stronger than SSB Goku, unless I'm misunderstanding something. That would be ridiculously to much. At max I would say SSB Vegito is a few hundred times stronger than SSB Goku, and that is still pushing it.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

From what we've got so far, it seems as though Vegito was approximately "SSG multiplied by SSB" in terms of numerical power.

Wait what? You are saying the power level of SSG x SSB? If SSG was lowballed to the max it still has to be in the billions, and so you are saying Vegito is billions of times stronger than SSB Goku, unless I'm misunderstanding something. That would be ridiculously to much. At max I would say SSB Vegito is a few hundred times stronger than SSB Goku, and that is still pushing it.

This conclusion of mine is predicated on my own interpretation of SSG only being a few thousand times stronger than the current base Saiyans, with fits in line with a base Potara Fusion being at least as strong as SSG Goku at this point and how much stronger a perfect Potara Fusion is than the sum of its parts.

[Hugo Boss]

From what we've got so far, it seems as though Vegito was approximately "SSG multiplied by SSB" in terms of numerical power.

Wait what? You are saying the power level of SSG x SSB? If SSG was lowballed to the max it still has to be in the billions, and so you are saying Vegito is billions of times stronger than SSB Goku, unless I'm misunderstanding something. That would be ridiculously to much. At max I would say SSB Vegito is a few hundred times stronger than SSB Goku, and that is still pushing it.

He is saying that because Kafla was stomping SSG Goku. If he thinks they have similar level, a fusion with Potara would multiply whatever level you are at by SSG’s multiplier.

[Marlowe89]

He is saying that because Kafla was stomping SSG Goku.

Which is funny because the show has already given an actual explanation for that, and it's certainly not what was proposed above. SSG's boost isn't numerically different from what it used to be (the gap between that form and base is always going to be the same, irrespective of Goku's current strength) and in fact one would either have to assume that A.) it was actually the Potara boost that changed over the course of the franchise, or B.) a fusion between Kale and Caulifla is simply much stronger than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, IF they insist on believing that Kefla really was that powerful.

It's easier to just go by what Champa said -- Goku was handicapped because he was tired. It's a simple, eloquent solution that doesn't actively involve the postulation of any bizarre headcanon and doesn't need to.

[dragon boss z]

From what we've got so far, it seems as though Vegito was approximately "SSG multiplied by SSB" in terms of numerical power.

Wait what? You are saying the power level of SSG x SSB? If SSG was lowballed to the max it still has to be in the billions, and so you are saying Vegito is billions of times stronger than SSB Goku, unless I'm misunderstanding something. That would be ridiculously to much. At max I would say SSB Vegito is a few hundred times stronger than SSB Goku, and that is still pushing it.

He is saying that because Kafla was stomping SSG Goku. If he thinks they have similar level, a fusion with Potara would multiply whatever level you are at by SSG’s multiplier.

Oh so like base Vegito would be equivalent to SSG Goku? But even then I don't think ssj multipliers work the same for fusions. I feel like the fusions bring out more of their latent power and this seems to be the case since SSG Goku going SSB almost seemed like a bigger incrase then Kefla going ssj and SSB is at most a 5x multiplier (in the manga), so I don't think it would be much different for the anime. So I think for fusions the ssj multipliers is more like 5-10x instead of 50, though I guess you could argue it's 50 if you count Goku using kaioken.

[ChiefWamsutta]

We know NOW that SS1 Goku is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. His Base is at the same power it generally was pre-SSGod Ritual. This doesn't excuse the continuity issue though. I wish they just had Goku go back to SS1 against Beerus and he couldn't touch Beerus. Then he taps into SSGod again and can use it from then on (the instances of a super strong Base that we thought were SBG would be SSGod).

Well they also said that the Super Saiyan Goku who Beerus fought was no weaker than when he was a Super Saiyan God. Of course now we know that isn't true at all so how does it get explained?

Beerus said that the power of Super Saiyan God was still burning brightly inside him even after he reverted to Super Saiyan. So I suppose even though his form changed, he still had that same power the whole time.

After which that power just didn't burn brightly in his Super Saiyan forms. Which would make it some weird one off occurrence where Goku had the power of a Super Saiyan God without looking like one, perhaps due to the form becoming a part of him for the first time or something.

I know this is weird, haha, so bear with me. Sorry, this is my own headcanon idea.

Goku in DBZ: Base/SS1/SS2/SS3
Goku After Ritual: SSGod
Goku After Losing SSGod: Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/God-enhanced Base/God-enhanced SS1

Goku learns about perfect ki control. He gets a taste of it when he and Vegeta punch fists.

Goku After Whis Staff Training: Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/God-enhanced Base/SSBlue

Perfecting ki control in the God-enhanced SS1 form turns it into SSBlue. This could explain why we never again see the SS1 form at the level of SSGod. It BECAME Goku's SSBlue using the ki control perfection Whis taught him. It makes sense for Goku to perfect the ki control in an SS1 form first because he practiced this throughout the Cell Saga with Gohan, resulting in SS1 Grade 4. So it was familiar to him.

Goku Right Before Tournament of Power And After Future Trunks: Base/SS1/SS2/SS3/SSGod/SSBlue

This God-enhanced Base was trained by Goku, using perfect ki control, to become SSGod again. It took Goku a lot longer to do this because it was not as natural to him as perfecting ki control in an SS1 form. Base form was harder, thus we saw God-enhanced Base form for a while until the Tournament of Power. We saw instances of it against Monaka-Beerus, Copy-Vegeta, RoF Final Form Frieza, etc. These could easily have been his God-enhanced Base form (he still has his usual Base form), but this is basically SSGod without the perfect ki control.

Very recently, Goku has been focusing on what Whis has said to him during training. That can be an explanation as to why SSGod came back; Goku practiced to perfect his ki control in this God-enhanced Base form. He then became more familiar and open to the idea of moving without thinking, thus he was able to unlock Ultra Instinct.

NOTE: I understand two bases were not meant to exist, aren't advertised as existing, and there is no hard core evidence for their existence. I came up with this idea to try and create a sense of consistency and continuity for DBSuper. This theory explains Goku using his Base form at DBZ power level, his SS1 form at DBZ power level, the god level Base form, the god level SS1 form, Super Saiyan God, Super Saiyan Blue, perfecting ki control, and how Whis plays into all this. Technically, we never see how Goku gets SSBlue and SSGod again, so this could not be disproved. I think it is a really good idea for those who want to accept it.

[ZombieVito]

He is saying that because Kafla was stomping SSG Goku.

Which is funny because the show has already given an actual explanation for that, and it's certainly not what was proposed above. SSG's boost isn't numerically different from what it used to be (the gap between that form and base is always going to be the same, irrespective of Goku's current strength) and in fact one would either have to assume that A.) it was actually the Potara boost that changed over the course of the franchise, or B.) a fusion between Kale and Caulifla is simply much stronger than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, IF they insist on believing that Kefla really was that powerful.

It's easier to just go by what Champa said -- Goku was handicapped because he was tired. It's a simple, eloquent solution that doesn't actively involve the postulation of any bizarre headcanon and doesn't need to.

Even still, base Kefla is stronger than current SS3 Goku going by Vegetto's Daizenshuu Bio.

[Hugo Boss]

He is saying that because Kafla was stomping SSG Goku.

Which is funny because the show has already given an actual explanation for that, and it's certainly not what was proposed above. SSG's boost isn't numerically different from what it used to be (the gap between that form and base is always going to be the same, irrespective of Goku's current strength) and in fact one would either have to assume that A.) it was actually the Potara boost that changed over the course of the franchise, or B.) a fusion between Kale and Caulifla is simply much stronger than a fusion between Goku and Vegeta, IF they insist on believing that Kefla really was that powerful.

It's easier to just go by what Champa said -- Goku was handicapped because he was tired. It's a simple, eloquent solution that doesn't actively involve the postulation of any bizarre headcanon and doesn't need to.

Even still, base Kefla is stronger than current SS3 Goku going by Vegetto's Daizenshuu Bio.

The description could be including Vegetto’s Super Saiyan form, going by what is written, but there is the possibility his normal form was stronger than SS3 as well.

He has both Vegeta's coolheaded battle strategies and Goku's pure fighting sense, and there can be no doubt that his strength measures even greater than that of a [Super] Saiyan 3. He is capable of transforming from his normal state into a Super Saiyan form. He has certain special characteristics, including that his strength doesn't change even if his shape does.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Given how much of a numerical gap there was between different individuals during the Buu Arc in the original series, I'm most definitely inclined to believe that it was indeed Vegito's base form that was greater than Goku's SS3 form.

[Bullza]

Does the new manga chapter tell us anything interesting at all?

[Liquir]

Does the new manga chapter tell us anything interesting at all?

It states that Jiren is capable flying faster than Spaceships through the Cosmos, which could also indicate he is capable surviving in the vacuum of space without oxygen, unless it was a shorter distance and he was able to keep his breath. But since they are giving him many overpowered traits I think it's safe to assume he is capable of this one as well.

[TheOne]

Does the new manga chapter tell us anything interesting at all?

It states that Jiren is capable flying faster than Spaceships through the Cosmos, which could also indicate he is capable surviving in the vacuum of space without oxygen, unless it was a shorter distance and he was able to keep his breath. But since they are giving him many overpowered traits I think it's safe to assume he is capable of this one as well.

Jiren is an alien. Breathing in space is probably not an issue with him

[Helios518]

Does the new manga chapter tell us anything interesting at all?

It states that Jiren is capable flying faster than Spaceships through the Cosmos, which could also indicate he is capable surviving in the vacuum of space without oxygen, unless it was a shorter distance and he was able to keep his breath. But since they are giving him many overpowered traits I think it's safe to assume he is capable of this one as well.

Jiren is an alien. Breathing in space is probably not an issue with him

Goku's also an alien.

[Marlowe89]

Even still, base Kefla is stronger than current SS3 Goku going by Vegetto's Daizenshuu Bio.

To be clear, I don't disagree with that at all. I peg both base Kefla and base Vegito as being considerably stronger than Super Saiyan 3 Goku.

I think comparing (current) Super Vegito to "Super Saiyan" Kefla is when it really gets interesting though. The latter's green hair might signify her own unique form to be at least partially boosted by Kale's Legendary Super Saiyan state, which obviously provides a much larger boost than just plain old Super Saiyan. In that case, Super Saiyan Kefla would indeed be significantly stronger than Super Vegito, well-justified as residing comfortably in the God tier range.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Makes sense that Jiren could fly through space like that.

He's at the level of a Hakaishin, and we've seen that they're more than capable of FTL speeds throughout the Universes under their own power with examples like Beerus and Champa.

[TheOne]

It states that Jiren is capable flying faster than Spaceships through the Cosmos, which could also indicate he is capable surviving in the vacuum of space without oxygen, unless it was a shorter distance and he was able to keep his breath. But since they are giving him many overpowered traits I think it's safe to assume he is capable of this one as well.

Jiren is an alien. Breathing in space is probably not an issue with him

Goku's also an alien.

Goku is an “alien” who closely resembles a human. So much so that they can reproduce with humans. Not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make... Almost looks like you want to debate something silly.

[Helios518]

Jiren is an alien. Breathing in space is probably not an issue with him

Goku's also an alien.

Goku is an “alien” who closely resembles a human. So much so that they can reproduce with humans. Not exactly sure what point you’re trying to make... Almost looks like you want to debate something silly.

We've seen other fictional characters like Superman who fits the description of "an 'alien' who closely resembles a human. So much so that they can reproduce with humans." But still can survive in space.