Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:17 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: It's the NEP that has everybody on edge. As usual. The implication seems to be that Gohan is gonna have to take on Frost AND Freeza. Let's not jump the gun on "Ultimate Gohan is needed to take on base Freeza, RETCON!" just yet, folks.
Can you point out which users specifically are "on edge" or "jumping the gun"? Genuinely curious.

I'm pretty sure that speculating what COULD happen (as far as I can tell, most if not all of us were particularly careful to include the word "if" here) and what that might subsequently reveal about the writing staff's intended power-scaling is a completely harmless proposition and doesn't warrant that accusation at all.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by supercat » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:23 am

Frost was completely exhausted when he faced off against Piccolo. Pretty sure he wasn't going all out there either, since they did have to follow tournament rules then as well.

Not interested in discussing where Roshi stands in power, but he in his exhausted state definitely looked way better against a fresh, new-and-improved Frost than a fresh Piccolo did against a weakened, exhausted Frost.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:23 am

Marlowe89 wrote:
PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote: It's the NEP that has everybody on edge. As usual. The implication seems to be that Gohan is gonna have to take on Frost AND Freeza. Let's not jump the gun on "Ultimate Gohan is needed to take on base Freeza, RETCON!" just yet, folks.
Can you point out which users specifically are "on edge" or "jumping the gun"? Genuinely curious.

I'm pretty sure that speculating what COULD happen (as far as I can tell, most of us were careful to include the word "if" here) and what that might reveal about the writing staff's intended power-scaling is a completely harmless proposition and doesn't warrant that accusation at all.
No, I cannot. Because I read it as a generalization. An overstated one, yes, but one that befits what I've seen thus far in this thread for some users.

I've seen comments such as "Saiyan Beyond God is the ONLY answer" and "this proves there's been a retcon" and other stuff. Mostly, I've been trying not to make any actual verdicts until we've seen the episode in question itself. Also, I've been trying to approach things with an open mind, and not assume that things are f**ked to start off with. As well, I'm trying not to bring in power-scaling when it's not necessary or the proper approach.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by namekiansaiyan » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:45 am

Saturnine wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Saturnine wrote:Actually I think Ultimate Gohan is way below SSjG level (and therefore Saiyan Beyond God). There is no way in hell he'd jump from his previous Ultimate level to SSjG level just in several hours of training with Piccolo.

That is unless Freeza was also retconned along with SbG Goku, to keep them equal. In that case Ultimate Gohan steamrolls.
Frieza looks very comfortable to me in the preview and Gohan is probably going to end up struggling big time.
I would have no problem with that. What I would have problems with though is showing that mere base Goku can still go toe to toe with Freeza, while needing SSj Blue (at some percentage of power of course) to overpower Ultimate Gohan. So making Ultimate Gohan lose to Freeza in light of this feels like a weird A>B>C situation.
Did Goku even need SSB to beat Gohan? Didn't Gohan just want Goku to go full power so he can test himself?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:53 am

PerhapsTheOtherOne wrote:I've seen comments such as "Saiyan Beyond God is the ONLY answer" and "this proves there's been a retcon" and other stuff. Mostly, I've been trying not to make any actual verdicts until we've seen the episode in question itself. Also, I've been trying to approach things with an open mind, and not assume that things are f**ked to start off with. As well, I'm trying not to bring in power-scaling when it's not necessary or the proper approach.
I'm going to have to reiterate that, with the exception of maybe ZombieVito, I haven't seen anyone in this thread prematurely making any verdicts about the NEP before the airing of that particular episode so much as postulating different possibilities of its presentation and whatever those possibilities might suggest for Super's current power-scaling. That's pretty much the extent of it. I mean, even the retcon interpretation doesn't necessarily make the assumption that everything is "fucked" if one chooses to advocate the idea that Super's writers have been (or are at least trying to be) consistent with their new narrative that has, hypothetically, entirely superseded the old ever since it was first implemented into the show for whatever reason.

If anything, I'd say that those who seem borderline offended by the mere possibility of a retcon are the ones who are actually "on edge" at this juncture. That's not specifically levied at you, but it's a recurring issue I tend to notice plaguing the thread just as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:58 am

How strong is Ultimate Gohan right now? I vaguely recall Piccolo saying Gohan needs to get his old Z power back but is there anything that says he's stronger from before?
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PerhapsTheOtherOne » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:10 am

ekrolo2 wrote:How strong is Ultimate Gohan right now? I vaguely recall Piccolo saying Gohan needs to get his old Z power back but is there anything that says he's stronger from before?
Piccolo states that he feels that Gohan's old Ultimate power regained isn't his limit, that he can go beyond it. Big green goes on to tell Gohan that they should try to train Ultimate further.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by BlueBasilisk » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:35 am

ekrolo2 wrote:How strong is Ultimate Gohan right now? I vaguely recall Piccolo saying Gohan needs to get his old Z power back but is there anything that says he's stronger from before?
After Gohan regains Ultimate, Piccolo asks him to spend the remaining time before the tournament training so they can draw out even more power. They seemed to be pretty even when he fought Goku's Super Saiyan 2 but he's strong enough that he could land two punches on SSB Goku and take some in return without getting knocked out.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:45 am

Animelover5487 wrote:I'd say the power scaling was pretty consistent this episode:

- Considering Maji Kayo's performance against Goku. Dyspo having trouble with him is pretty understandable.

- Roshi is fodder compared to Frost but this is nothing new, although the episode does make it a point that Roshi's lack of stamina was the key factor to his lackluster performance.

- Magetta is equal to SS Vegeta in combat but Magetta tanks all of his blasts though this has more to do with Magetta's natural ability than him having a higher battle power than Super Saiyan

- Frost is still weaker than SS Vegeta but is able to put up a considerably better fight than before even without using Magetta to corner him

- As for the NEP. Ultimate Gohan better push Freeza to golden, judging by the preview it looks like FF Freeza is at least able to fight him though which doesn't really make sense considering U. Gohan is at least as SSG tier and Freeza previously was only on par with Base Goku.

- Regarding Ribranne, unless Goku goes Super Saiyan next or the following episode I don't know where to put her.
ZombieVito wrote:So are we going to ignore that Ribrianne is fighting on par with both 17 and base freaking Goku?

:?
17 was holding back. He didn't take the fight seriously, he was just humoring her. That said, it is still weird for Base Goku to be handelling her, perhaps Goku will go Super Saiyan later in the episode or in the following episode.
Seriously, you mean that comment 17 made about being a Bad Guy = Him not Being Seirous and not the Fighting itself?! :wtf:

With all due Given to 17 and His Power, That really does not = how Serious he was in the Fight, You have to Go by THE FIGHT itself and what was said then.

17 Made the comment Ribrianne was not a bad fighter and he has never said that to anyone else so far in this ToP. Also, his Yelling while Fighting Sounded Serious to me and not some Guy at 25% Power or whatever level 17 is at right now, Toei has not been specific how powerful he is.

Also, Ribrianne DESTROYED 17's Shield in 1 Punch and Still was not Winded at all by doing that, a Shield that has not been broken by anyone in this ToP so Far!

So while the numbers can be guessed, the fight with 17, Ontop of the Fight With SSJ-Vegeta where she was Laughing and Having a Good time with, not even a Warm-Up looking fight but Playing for Ribiranne, I feel she is Well beyond SSJ- 1, 2 & 3 at this point!

I believe Strongly she will be seen at the least SSJ-Blue Level, but we have to wait for the Episode to see if I am right about that or not.

BUT a fight that is said to Go for the WHOLE of Episode 108 into 109 by Goku Himself cannot be an Easy fight for him, even for Goku.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:54 am

BlueBasilisk wrote:
Bullza wrote:She is probably not fighting seriously against Goku yet. After all this fight is going to continue into the next couple of episodes.

She didn't use her full power against Super Saiyan Vegeta from the looks of it either.

I'm sure he'll transform at some point.
It's possible Brianne might be hiding another transformation too. Magical girls gotta have a super mode. :P
It is VERY Possible and Very Likely this may happen, espically since Toei is the House that Build the Magical Girl Mythos and Franchises

Toei KNOWS this Formula like no other company and if they are Serious in Pushing Ribrianne and Universe 2's concepts and so far by how they are Promoting Ribrianne in Dragon Ball Heroes and her being out-front in Magazines and Promotions for Super, It can be Theories that Toei Might used the, ANOTHER TRANSFORMATION concept as well.

We have to wait and see what Toei decides to do, if they will decide to pull the trigger on this concept or not, but in all Likelihood Toei has been following the Magical Girl Style Formula with Ribrianne in this ToP by my observation and I have MADE it my Expertise to Understand all that is happening with Universe 2 and Ribrianne since I am a BIG Fan of theirs, since it seems they are following the Formula this closely so far, it is a Good Likelihood their could be another Transformation coming from Ribrianne!

Another Point, Toei seems to be in a PRO-Female Character/Fighters Mode of Pushing New Female Fighters, More so now with the Intro of Android 21 in the Dragon Ball Z/Fighters Game recently. So by that reasoning, Ribrianne should be the benefactor of that push as well too.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:06 am

avasatu wrote:
ZombieVito wrote:So are we going to ignore that Ribrianne is fighting on par with both 17 and base freaking Goku?

:?
We're going to wait and see what the episode looks like before we complain, as I'd hope we've all learned to do by now. :D
Bullza wrote:She is probably not fighting seriously against Goku yet. After all this fight is going to continue into the next couple of episodes.

She didn't use her full power against Super Saiyan Vegeta from the looks of it either.

I'm sure he'll transform at some point.
As a Fan of Ribrianne's, I would have to Agree that it is Best to Wait and See what Toei's Writing Department gives us in Episode 108-109 and beyond that with how Truly Powerful and Skillful Ribrianne Really is, it is the Fair Thing to Give her and the Most Logical.

However, that does not mean we cannot Speculate with what we have seen from Ribrianne already! ;)

In my other posts I gave theories on where Ribrianne could go and how Toei could write her in future episodes.

But with that, we have to also look at what she has done Already;

~~~ Ribrianne Tanked SSJ-Vegeta to a Point where it was not a Warm-up fight but one she was having FUN and Laughing about! That Shows IMO Ribrianne is way Beyond SSJ-1 at its best!

~~~ Ribrianne also fought Android 17 who was in a Fight with her and by accounts by how I observed the fight, they where going at it Pretty Seriously! 17 is likely way beyond SSJ-3 Highest Level and In the Red and Blue Territory, not all full power blue but it seems 17 is at some level of it maybe. So this means likely Ribrianne at this point in time, but not her limit by any means, is capable of Levels of SSG-Red and a good chance Blue as well.

We will have to see, but Ribrianne has shown Great power already and Ribrianne should not bee seen in lesser terms by many means. ;)

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by LowRyder2005 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:16 am

Saturnine wrote:
namekiansaiyan wrote:
Saturnine wrote:Actually I think Ultimate Gohan is way below SSjG level (and therefore Saiyan Beyond God). There is no way in hell he'd jump from his previous Ultimate level to SSjG level just in several hours of training with Piccolo.

That is unless Freeza was also retconned along with SbG Goku, to keep them equal. In that case Ultimate Gohan steamrolls.
Frieza looks very comfortable to me in the preview and Gohan is probably going to end up struggling big time.
I would have no problem with that. What I would have problems with though is showing that mere base Goku can still go toe to toe with Freeza, while needing SSj Blue (at some percentage of power of course) to overpower Ultimate Gohan. So making Ultimate Gohan lose to Freeza in light of this feels like a weird A>B>C situation.
Not like there wouldn't be a wealth of contradictions anyways in the grand scheme of things, but that's... like, not quite true, or at least it has not happened yet. Current base Goku supposedly being able to give current Freeza a hard time according to some hypothetical scenes has just been some (pretty unwarranted, and usually extreme) extrapolation on some fans' part who literally blowed things out of proportion with possible connotations of "pseudo-feats".

Stuff like "Freeza punched base Goku and then got hurt" (as if, assuming Freeza was now massively stronger for the sake of our argument, he'd have any interest in punching Goku at full strength and kill him right before the tournament) or "base Goku kept up with Golden Freeza (but, y'know, Golden Freeza is already suppressing himself and he wasn't even transforming to face base Goku to begin with)", or "according to how I think Hakai energy is supposed to work" are either poor arguments or extremely debatable... and frankly I feel like they've been misrepresented far too many times by now -- not referring to you, of course.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Animelover5487 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:32 am

CJStriker_CBR wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I'd say the power scaling was pretty consistent this episode:

- Considering Maji Kayo's performance against Goku. Dyspo having trouble with him is pretty understandable.

- Roshi is fodder compared to Frost but this is nothing new, although the episode does make it a point that Roshi's lack of stamina was the key factor to his lackluster performance.

- Magetta is equal to SS Vegeta in combat but Magetta tanks all of his blasts though this has more to do with Magetta's natural ability than him having a higher battle power than Super Saiyan

- Frost is still weaker than SS Vegeta but is able to put up a considerably better fight than before even without using Magetta to corner him

- As for the NEP. Ultimate Gohan better push Freeza to golden, judging by the preview it looks like FF Freeza is at least able to fight him though which doesn't really make sense considering U. Gohan is at least as SSG tier and Freeza previously was only on par with Base Goku.

- Regarding Ribranne, unless Goku goes Super Saiyan next or the following episode I don't know where to put her.
ZombieVito wrote:So are we going to ignore that Ribrianne is fighting on par with both 17 and base freaking Goku?

:?
17 was holding back. He didn't take the fight seriously, he was just humoring her. That said, it is still weird for Base Goku to be handelling her, perhaps Goku will go Super Saiyan later in the episode or in the following episode.
Seriously, you mean that comment 17 made about being a Bad Guy = Him not Being Seirous and not the Fighting itself?! :wtf:

With all due Given to 17 and His Power, That really does not = how Serious he was in the Fight, You have to Go by THE FIGHT itself and what was said then.

17 Made the comment Ribrianne was not a bad fighter and he has never said that to anyone else so far in this ToP. Also, his Yelling while Fighting Sounded Serious to me and not some Guy at 25% Power or whatever level 17 is at right now, Toei has not been specific how powerful he is.

Also, Ribrianne DESTROYED 17's Shield in 1 Punch and Still was not Winded at all by doing that, a Shield that has not been broken by anyone in this ToP so Far!

So while the numbers can be guessed, the fight with 17, Ontop of the Fight With SSJ-Vegeta where she was Laughing and Having a Good time with, not even a Warm-Up looking fight but Playing for Ribiranne, I feel she is Well beyond SSJ- 1, 2 & 3 at this point!

I believe Strongly she will be seen at the least SSJ-Blue Level, but we have to wait for the Episode to see if I am right about that or not.

BUT a fight that is said to Go for the WHOLE of Episode 108 into 109 by Goku Himself cannot be an Easy fight for him, even for Goku.
The "not bad" comment is a bit vague to use an indication of 17 fighting serious. Characters have yelled while holding back several times before, again that's too vague to use as an indication. The shield hasn't been destroyed by anyone at the tournament because 17 hadn't fought anyone beyond Super Saiyan tier.

17 easily escaped Ribranne when Goku got caught off guard so yeah 17 was more than likely holding back. Ribranne is beyond Super Saiyan tier, not sure about the other forms since we really need more feats to judge her power any more and 17's power is already a bit of a mystery.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by CJStriker_CBR » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:07 pm

Animelover5487 wrote:
CJStriker_CBR wrote:
Animelover5487 wrote:I'd say the power scaling was pretty consistent this episode:

- Considering Maji Kayo's performance against Goku. Dyspo having trouble with him is pretty understandable.

- Roshi is fodder compared to Frost but this is nothing new, although the episode does make it a point that Roshi's lack of stamina was the key factor to his lackluster performance.

- Magetta is equal to SS Vegeta in combat but Magetta tanks all of his blasts though this has more to do with Magetta's natural ability than him having a higher battle power than Super Saiyan

- Frost is still weaker than SS Vegeta but is able to put up a considerably better fight than before even without using Magetta to corner him

- As for the NEP. Ultimate Gohan better push Freeza to golden, judging by the preview it looks like FF Freeza is at least able to fight him though which doesn't really make sense considering U. Gohan is at least as SSG tier and Freeza previously was only on par with Base Goku.

- Regarding Ribranne, unless Goku goes Super Saiyan next or the following episode I don't know where to put her.



17 was holding back. He didn't take the fight seriously, he was just humoring her. That said, it is still weird for Base Goku to be handelling her, perhaps Goku will go Super Saiyan later in the episode or in the following episode.
Seriously, you mean that comment 17 made about being a Bad Guy = Him not Being Seirous and not the Fighting itself?! :wtf:

With all due Given to 17 and His Power, That really does not = how Serious he was in the Fight, You have to Go by THE FIGHT itself and what was said then.

17 Made the comment Ribrianne was not a bad fighter and he has never said that to anyone else so far in this ToP. Also, his Yelling while Fighting Sounded Serious to me and not some Guy at 25% Power or whatever level 17 is at right now, Toei has not been specific how powerful he is.

Also, Ribrianne DESTROYED 17's Shield in 1 Punch and Still was not Winded at all by doing that, a Shield that has not been broken by anyone in this ToP so Far!

So while the numbers can be guessed, the fight with 17, Ontop of the Fight With SSJ-Vegeta where she was Laughing and Having a Good time with, not even a Warm-Up looking fight but Playing for Ribiranne, I feel she is Well beyond SSJ- 1, 2 & 3 at this point!

I believe Strongly she will be seen at the least SSJ-Blue Level, but we have to wait for the Episode to see if I am right about that or not.

BUT a fight that is said to Go for the WHOLE of Episode 108 into 109 by Goku Himself cannot be an Easy fight for him, even for Goku.
The "not bad" comment is a bit vague to use an indication of 17 fighting serious. Characters have yelled while holding back several times before, again that's too vague to use as an indication. The shield hasn't been destroyed by anyone at the tournament because 17 hadn't fought anyone beyond Super Saiyan tier.

17 easily escaped Ribranne when Goku got caught off guard so yeah 17 was more than likely holding back. Ribranne is beyond Super Saiyan tier, not sure about the other forms since we really need more feats to judge her power any more and 17's power is already a bit of a mystery.
Well that Doors swings both ways with the "17 easily escaped Ribranne when Goku got caught off guard" being a measuring stick of how powerful 17 was cause Ribrianna Did the EXACT Same-thing when Rozie got hurt with her battle with Goku and Ribrianne went to go save Rozie, so by that Term Ribrianne Easily got away from 17 too. That theory swing both ways. :lol:

I think Toei by accounts would not think that deep into a battle, what they put on the Screen and how they act is what we are suppose to take away from the intensity of the Battle, I think Toei wants to keep it that simple and has given very little indication by dialogue or anything else to say otherwise. So we by fair terms should take away 17 and Ribrianne's battle was pretty intensest and both did seem Very Serious by it but both where not tired from it either, 17 for the never ending power he has, but Ribrianne for her own abilities we still need to learn about.

Both where showing a high level.

Again, this is taking NOTHING away from 17, but we can only take at face value what Toei by a simplelist of ways they want the audience to take away from this ~~~ 17 was impressed with Ribrianne's power, to what level we don't know but he was impressed to some level. I doubt someone as mellow talking as 17 is would say that easy either, so by that it means their is something to Ribrianne, more to her that Toei wants us to get ready for.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:13 pm

What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:54 pm

Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?
The awfulness of how people's powers work would get cranked up if this was the case, yes.
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Doctor. » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:00 pm

Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?
Unless you want to assume Vegeta and Goku got an ultimate form out of nowhere, then the second base can't exist because it's supposed to be Super Saiyan God.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:23 pm

Doctor. wrote:
Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?
Unless you want to assume Vegeta and Goku got an ultimate form out of nowhere, then the second base can't exist because it's supposed to be Super Saiyan God.
Well it wouldn't be Ultimate form like Gohan's it would just be a form that's power comes from Super Saiyan God but is not specifically as strong as that.

Like how the Resurrection F manga showed the implication that there was a Base Goku with Super Saiyan God power.

Also the Dragon Ball Heroes game has a Goku who can transform into Super Saiyan, Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue etc and the Saiyan Beyond God card is inbetween Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God in strength.

If you tried to fit everything together without any retcon then it could be a possibility.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ekrolo2 » Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:53 pm

Bullza wrote:
Doctor. wrote:
Bullza wrote:What if there were two Bases and the second Base, Saiyan Beyond God just wasn't as strong as Super Saiyan God but was still stronger than the regular Super Saiyan forms?

Too farfetched?
Unless you want to assume Vegeta and Goku got an ultimate form out of nowhere, then the second base can't exist because it's supposed to be Super Saiyan God.
Well it wouldn't be Ultimate form like Gohan's it would just be a form that's power comes from Super Saiyan God but is not specifically as strong as that.

Like how the Resurrection F manga showed the implication that there was a Base Goku with Super Saiyan God power.

Also the Dragon Ball Heroes game has a Goku who can transform into Super Saiyan, Saiyan Beyond God, Super Saiyan God and Super Saiyan Blue etc and the Saiyan Beyond God card is inbetween Super Saiyan 3 and Super Saiyan God in strength.

If you tried to fit everything together without any retcon then it could be a possibility.
I will state what I said earlier: it would make things even more convoluted and arbitrary then they already are.
When someone tells you, "Don't present your opinion as fact," what they're actually saying is, "Don't present your opinion with any conviction. Because I don't like your opinion, and I want to be able to dismiss it as easily as possible." Don't fall for it.

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Liquir
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Liquir » Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:08 pm

Jiren eliminating Maji Kayo with a Force from just one punch is still a small feat comparable to Monaka defeating a highest caliber fighter like Hit in one regular single punch. Monaka is the true holder the title "One punch man" in DBS.
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