Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[LowRyder2005]

Guy's I've got this crazy idea that was not only implied in this episode, but in episode 13.

What if SSG has the same level of power as SS but is only a lot faster.

This makes sense with Goku's performance against Beerus in episode 13 and 14. Where, even though Goku is losing(which could be put down to a lack of speed), Beerus still sees the power of a God in him.

It also makes sense with Goku's statement during that fight that he hadn't felt like he had lost any power.

On a side note, it also makes sense that people like Gowasu think Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destructions in SS2.

This is just my theory, I know it's littered with broader implications, so what are peoples thoughts on it?

It's interesting, but it might call for a big re-evaluation of everything we've seen so far. I think that, all in all, most will agree that Blue is supposed to be a very, very contained power-up on God, with a more appreciable shuffle in stats only -- following the manga lead, which was really the first in re-establishing the usage of the form. I'd say the general idea is supposed to be:

SSG
Strength/ Ki:100
Speed: 100
Stamina: 100

SSB
Strength/ Ki: 300
Speed: 50
Stamina: 50

Note: the numbers and gaps are completely arbitrary, of course.

What's most interesting about the whole ordeal is definitely the fact that manga and anime are re-aligning themselves, which I interpret as a sign of Toyotaro's growing influence on the franchise. The anime started off the premise God's strength was absorbed by Goku, and now we have a sequence that follows very closely SSG/SSB Vegeta vs. Black in the manga.

[JazzMazz]

Guy's I've got this crazy idea that was not only implied in this episode, but in episode 13.

What if SSG has the same level of power as SS but is only a lot faster.

This makes sense with Goku's performance against Beerus in episode 13 and 14. Where, even though Goku is losing(which could be put down to a lack of speed), Beerus still sees the power of a God in him.

It also makes sense with Goku's statement during that fight that he hadn't felt like he had lost any power.

On a side note, it also makes sense that people like Gowasu think Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destructions in SS2.

This is just my theory, I know it's littered with broader implications, so what are peoples thoughts on it?

It's interesting, but it might call for a big re-evaluation of everything we've seen so far. I think that, all in all, most will agree that Blue is supposed to be a very, very contained power-up on God, with a more appreciable shuffle in stats only -- following the manga lead, which was really the first in re-establishing the usage of the form.

For the manga, I think SSG is treated as massive power-up from all prior transformations. In the anime, with all the God power absorbing stuff, it gets a little more confusing and convoluted.

[Marlowe89]

The two-base theory was always just a downplaying tool created after Piccolo did well against Frost. It never had a basics since it never explained how Goku could used a weaker base against Frost, but his super strong base against Hit, but no one commenting on it.

First of all, the two base theory originated before Piccolo's battle against Frost. It wasn't a "downplaying tool", it was just an attempt to reconcile different portrayals of base Goku or how Super Saiyan Blue and yellow Super Saiyan forms could co-exist in the anime without operating under the assumption that Blue's description was retconned. Obviously it has basically no chance of being true now, but that's what it was for the people who bought it.

Secondly, if you're going to insist on taking this high-and-mighty approach that people only subscribed to the theory in order to downplay characters, I could just as easily argue that you're using one short scene from a pseudo-filler arc to wank the strength of the base Saiyans despite almost every recent showing in the current arc explicitly running counter to it. But I won't -- you're entitled to believe whatever you want about the strength of the characters, but don't come in here assuming the motives of those with different interpretations than you. It's uncalled for, it's irritating and it has no place in the thread or this entire forum for that matter.

[Lord Beerus]

Guy's I've got this crazy idea that was not only implied in this episode, but in episode 13.

What if SSG has the same level of power as SS but is only a lot faster.

This makes sense with Goku's performance against Beerus in episode 13 and 14. Where, even though Goku is losing(which could be put down to a lack of speed), Beerus still sees the power of a God in him.

It also makes sense with Goku's statement during that fight that he hadn't felt like he had lost any power.

On a side note, it also makes sense that people like Gowasu think Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destructions in SS2.

This is just my theory, I know it's littered with broader implications, so what are peoples thoughts on it?

It's interesting, but it might call for a big re-evaluation of everything we've seen so far. I think that, all in all, most will agree that Blue is supposed to be a very, very contained power-up on God, with a more appreciable shuffle in stats only -- following the manga lead, which was really the first in re-establishing the usage of the form.

For the manga, I think SSG is treated as massive power-up from all prior transformations. In the anime, with all the God power absorbing stuff, it gets a little more confusing and convoluted.

I actually think the whole "absorbing the power of Super Saiyan God and making it his own" scenario in the anime works in favor for when Goku wants to the use SSJG directly again. Barbecue then you can determine that Goku, if he wants to, can transform into a SSJG again as he can essentially tap into the power of SSJG at his own. In the manga, Goku just loses the form after the time limit expires. It's never elaborated how he managed to retain the form and transform into SSJG again. It just so happens he can still transform into what was supposedly a temporary form. And in Vegeta's case, it's even more confusing. As the manga seems to indicate he obtained the form while training for no more than a day in the ROSAT to preparation to fight Goku Black again in the Future Trunks arc. I mean, if Vegeta did already have the SSJG, he sure as hell doesn't use SSJG at any stage prior to fighting Super Saiyan Rose Goku Black again.

[Bullza]

How strong would you say Dyspo is exactly? We know he's above Super Saiyan God Goku and below Super Saiyan Blue Goku more than likely but how about...

- Golden Frieza as of the Resurrection F saga
- Hit as of the Universe 6 saga
- Super Saiyan Rose Black
- Ultimate Gohan
- Android 17

Is he stronger or weaker than each of those?

[wolflonnie]

How strong would you say Dyspo is exactly? We know he's above Super Saiyan God Goku and below Super Saiyan Blue Goku more than likely but how about...

- Golden Frieza as of the Resurrection F saga
- Hit as of the Universe 6 saga
- Super Saiyan Rose Black
- Ultimate Gohan
- Android 17

Is he stronger or weaker than each of those?

Most likely between 17/Ultimate Gohan and Golden Freeza at RoF.

[HeroR]

First of all, the two base theory originated before Piccolo's battle against Frost. It wasn't a "downplaying tool", it was just an attempt to reconcile different portrayals of base Goku or how Super Saiyan Blue and yellow Super Saiyan forms could co-exist in the anime without operating under the assumption that Blue's description was retconned. Obviously it has basically no chance of being true now, but that's what it was for the people who bought it.

Secondly, if you're going to insist on taking this high-and-mighty approach that people only subscribed to the theory in order to downplay characters, I could just as easily argue that you're using one short scene from a pseudo-filler arc to wank the strength of the base Saiyans despite almost every recent showing in the current arc explicitly running counter to it. But I won't -- you're entitled to believe whatever you want about the strength of the characters, but don't come in here assuming the motives of those with different interpretations than you. It's uncalled for, it's irritating and it has no place in the thread or this entire forum for that matter.

The theory never made sense and I've repeatedly stated why. I was then dismissed and mocked for it. And "pseudo-filler"? This isn't the days of the manga where you have a define source material and you can chose to ignore Toei's additions. The 'filler' of Super is the canon of the anime, which is why I got annoyed when people tried to pretend Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks vs. Copy-Vegeta didn't happened because 'it's filler'. It really was a form of cherry-picking.

Also, "recent showing in the current arc explicitly running counter to it". When I pointed out that Goku fought a faster and stronger Slim Buu, my statement was dismissed as 'Buu was holding back', despite Buu having no reason to do so since Goku wanted to see how strong he became. So holding back would undermined that. The same with Piccolo when he used a charged energy blast against base form Goku or Gohan being even with Goku in Episode 90 after it was stated in the episode that Gohan got stronger overall, after Piccolo strangled him as a Super Saiyan 2.

When I directly asked why no one comment when Goku used a supposed weaker base form against Frost, but he's strong base form against Hit and no one comment, I was outright ignored. Most people who believed in the two-base theory outside of yourself and maybe a few others, never wanted to have a real conversation about it. They just believe it and cherry-picked or ignored the stuff that didn't support it. Those are the people I'm talking about.

And for the record, I did humor the two-base theory more than once. I even believed it during the Champa Saga until no one mentioned it and Goku fought Hit in base, which was the perfect time to bring up the second base. Overall, there was far more evidence against it then support it. It was far more likely that people got more powerful for the plot, like Future Trunks in Episode 57.

[Marlowe89]

How strong would you say Dyspo is exactly? We know he's above Super Saiyan God Goku and below Super Saiyan Blue Goku more than likely but how about...

- Golden Frieza as of the Resurrection F saga
- Hit as of the Universe 6 saga
- Super Saiyan Rose Black
- Ultimate Gohan
- Android 17

Is he stronger or weaker than each of those?

Below Frieza, Hit and Black but possibly above Ultimate Gohan and Android 17, depending on how strong the latter two characters actually are.

I believe he's only marginally stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku, who was fast enough to intercept the charge against Hit and also momentarily keep up with Dyspo in combat before getting knocked back.

[LowRyder2005]

First of all, the two base theory originated before Piccolo's battle against Frost. It wasn't a "downplaying tool", it was just an attempt to reconcile different portrayals of base Goku or how Super Saiyan Blue and yellow Super Saiyan forms could co-exist in the anime without operating under the assumption that Blue's description was retconned. Obviously it has basically no chance of being true now, but that's what it was for the people who bought it.

February 2016, to be exact. Or when the first scan of Super Saiyan Goku against Frost emerged and people online wondered if they had just got the shading wrong. It really goes to show how nobody thought the Super Saiyan forms would make a reappearance, which is often forgotten today, more than a year later.

Piccolo's performance against Forst, combined with the idea of "Piccolo > Super Saiyan God-like base Goku" appearing understandably as a scenario without any apparent rhyme or reason, just acted as possible evidence which corroborated the original intuition.

How strong would you say Dyspo is exactly? We know he's above Super Saiyan God Goku and below Super Saiyan Blue Goku more than likely but how about...

- Golden Frieza as of the Resurrection F saga
- Hit as of the Universe 6 saga
- Super Saiyan Rose Black
- Ultimate Gohan
- Android 17

Is he stronger or weaker than each of those?

My take is that he's outright stronger than Ultimate Gohan and #17; unless we have a clear confirmation they can perform similarly to Super Saiyan God Goku. Overall weaker "stat-wise" than the original Super Saiyan God (and anyone above him, so Rosé Black, etc.), but his massive edge in speed would make him perfectly able to defeat the original Golden Freeza, the current Hit alone and most likely even the current Super Saiyan Blue Goku -- again, because of the mismatch in velocity. In short, I think he's just below Toppo and SSB + KK*2 Goku in the fearsomeness department (and in purely one on one fights) with Super Saiyan God + Super Saiyan Blue being just a convenient counter.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I have Dyspo as strong as whatever he/we want(s) (him) to be, because his strength wasn't the deciding factor in how he was a threat, just like most other fights in this tournament, it was his abilities and tactics.

More specifically, his ability to hear minute motions of the body that allow him to make full use of his speed being multiplied thousands of times to land devastating blows on opponents, often on vital areas if the opponent can't prevent it like Hit was learning to do.

Like how the Trio De Dangers used their triple tag team tactics to get the edge on Goku, or how Tupper got Goku in an overbearing grip that's compounded by his weight-shifting, or how Obuni could keep up with Ultimate Gohan using his mirror image technique.

[emperior]

Guy's I've got this crazy idea that was not only implied in this episode, but in episode 13.

What if SSG has the same level of power as SS but is only a lot faster.

This makes sense with Goku's performance against Beerus in episode 13 and 14. Where, even though Goku is losing(which could be put down to a lack of speed), Beerus still sees the power of a God in him.

It also makes sense with Goku's statement during that fight that he hadn't felt like he had lost any power.

On a side note, it also makes sense that people like Gowasu think Goku's power rivals that of a God of Destructions in SS2.

This is just my theory, I know it's littered with broader implications, so what are peoples thoughts on it?

I had the same exact idea when Whis sort of implied SSG isn't stronger than SSJ, but just faster. So Goku's SSJ form has kept SSG's power yet he can still use SSJ2 and 3 (maybe they aren't as high of a boost as before).
Though if this is the case, then it means Goku's base is just 50 times weaker than Super Saiyan God, which means Goku is definitely stronger than 18 and Buu too.
That's confusing as hell. They should explain what SSG is, and how Goku can use it at will, and I would like to know just how strong Blue is in comparision to it.

[Helios518]

Per se, it's not wrong. then again, what's the point of mentioning the thing at all, as if it was something worthy of being acknowledged and a characteristic of his, if everyone else does no prob? Upon further reflection on what the characters' rationale may be, I think we can rest assured that Dyspo surpassing the speed of light is supposed to be a big achievement thanks to the context, even though the wording in itself doesn't really make it clear.

Regarding the second question, Dyspo can't be faster than lightspeed when he's not moving. By multiplying his acceleration x times, he surpasses the speed of light. I'm inclined to think Super Saiyan God, Blue and Hit (and, by scaling, those above them) are the only ones approximately close to the speed of light; Dyspo is a little above that and can beat one of them, but not two of them together. At least, that's what the fight purported to show the audience.

Hmm, I disagree that the characters are that slow. It would contradict the original manga, in which Roshi & Piccolo's attack made it to the Moon in a short amount of time. Even if you want to say it took their attacks 100 seconds to get there, the speeds of those attacks would've been around 1% the speed of light. And we're actually supposed to think they're not past the light barrier after the characters getting thousands/millions of times more powerful than before? Impossible.

[Marlowe89]

And "pseudo-filler"?

I'm opting for the term "pseudo" here because it's not really filler from an overarching narrative standpoint, but it's absolutely filler in the sense that it's likely not adapting one of Toriyama's drafts into an arc -- despite us now being aware (via Toshio) that Toei's writers do in fact attempt to scale the characters as consistently as possible with Toriyama's view. So the company doesn't just do their own thing with the power scale, they're clearly trying to be conscious of Toriyama's perception and surely engage in some form of communication with both Toriyama and Toyotaro beyond just receiving a text document of the arc's rough draft or something. We don't know if they had any kind of supervision during the Potafeau arc, though.

As for the situations with Buu, Piccolo, Gohan, etc. I've pretty much repeatedly made my views known regarding those instances. Personally I've grown weary of arguing about it, but LowRyder2005 provided a solid rundown of my own counterarguments on the previous page.

[BlueBasilisk]

Something that could be inferred fromt the epsisode is that Goku as a SSJ is as powerful as his SSG form but a lot slower. That's what Goku stated back in episode 13, when he said to Beerus he doesn't feel like he had lost any power.

Now that you mention it, right after Goku turns back into a Super Saiyan he has a bit of trouble actually landing a punch on Beerus at first.

[TheSaiyanGod]

How strong is Goku in relation to Hitto?

Hitto was shaken to get up after only two attacks, and Dyspo himself was surprised that he was standing.
He was well worn and with several body injuries (something rare in DBS, but only appeared in Hitto) after being attacked successively.

Goku took at least two blows from him and recovered quickly in battle, with no scratches.

While Hitto was careful not to step on the wires of Kunshi, Goku crossed smoothly and did not have a single scratch.
He also seemed to be pretty confident.

Dyspo's speed did cause problems for Hitto, but Goku SSG said his moves were predictable.
Is Goku really that strong?

[HeroR]

And "pseudo-filler"?

I'm opting for the term "pseudo" here because it's not really filler from an overarching narrative standpoint, but it's absolutely filler in the sense that it's likely not adapting one of Toriyama's drafts into an arc -- despite us now being aware (via Toshio) that Toei's writers do in fact attempt to scale the characters as consistently as possible with Toriyama's view. So the company doesn't just do their own thing with the power scale, they're clearly trying to be conscious of Toriyama's perception and surely engage in some form of communication with both Toriyama and Toyotaro beyond just receiving a text document of the arc's rough draft or something. We don't know if they had any kind of supervision during the Potafeau arc, though.

As for the situations with Buu, Piccolo, Gohan, etc. I've pretty much repeatedly made my views known regarding those instances. Personally I've grown weary of arguing about it, but LowRyder2005 provided a solid rundown of my own counterarguments on the previous page.

Toriyama has a basic draft and it's up toe Toei to fill the holes. From that POV, absolutely everything that isn't in the outline is 'filler'. And Toshio only confirmed what I have been saying since forever when people claimed that Super' writers don't talk to each other or Toriyama. Like I had people claimed that Copy-Vegeta wasn't acknowledge in the story and was forgotten or everything from retellings doesn't count because Toriyama changed his mind about Goku absorbing Super Saiyan God and didn't tell Toei about it until after they adaptive the movies and tried to 'fix' it in the Champa Saga by resetting Goku and Vegeta's base forms back to Buu Saga. When I pointed out how crazy that was, I was roundly ignored or downvoted to hell on Reddit. And why wouldn't there be supervision during the Potafeau arc? It's the same group of writers and it was acknowledge in the Future Trunks Saga with one line. These people are not writing week-by-week.

In either case, I am just the theory is done with and my biggest issue with the two-base theory was how the people who truly believe in it shut down any conversation with people who point of the flaws in the theory. As I said, it's far more believable that Toei scale up or scale down characters to be dramatic in a moment, or as they put it in comics, characters have high and low-end feats. For the most part, Goku and Vegeta has been shown with a strong base form and nothing in the story led me to believe that they had a second base form that they never seemed to used once the Future Trunks Saga started. I mean, you don't believe Goku and Vegeta's base forms are Super Saiyan God level, that's fine. But resetting them to the Cell and Buu Saga just never made sense to me.

[Hugo Boss]

Something that could be inferred fromt the epsisode is that Goku as a SSJ is as powerful as his SSG form but a lot slower. That's what Goku stated back in episode 13, when he said to Beerus he doesn't feel like he had lost any power.

Now that you mention it, right after Goku turns back into a Super Saiyan he has a bit of trouble actually landing a punch on Beerus at first.

Yeah, I have thought about that too. Perhaps reverting to regular Super Saiyan slowed him down and diminished his stamina. Interesting that while Super Saiyan God is referenced to be faster than Super Saiyan, Super Saiyan Blue is referenced to be both more powerful and faster than Super Saiyan God.

[ssbgoku]

Well so with watching last episode of dragon ball super where we had reintroduction of ssg in anime I believe that Toyatoro wasn't joking when he said he will be ahead of anime again(although manga is still in back). However he could mean giving them instructions or what way anime should follow and you know what it makes me happy as Toyatoro is the most known person for at least trying to keep power scaling consistent, even if even he sometimes make mistake but forgetting something or going overboard. Now I only wonder if this reapearance of ssg was only for fanservice or is this going to get used again in anime and will make it relevant/making impact on story or power scaling i.e (putting to use). If we go by later which I hope by the way, then this is clearly retcon of anime and Toryiama attempt to line up power scaling consistency in both manga and anime. If this is the case then controversial strong ssj or base form (being stronger then buu arc golden forms):

1. Post ssg ssj/base goku = pernament unlocking divine ki(forms) and of course power boost to any Saiyan forms, but only temporary way to keep ssg power through whole battle against beerus.
2. Post six months whis training vegeta = Goku reffering to vegeta vastly improving his base form(and other forms=multipliers). Possibly at that point base = bog/buu ss
3. Rof goku/vegeta = Very much improved goku and vegeta so base = bog/buu ss2 Either that or both goku and vegeta used ssg from the start aginst final form freeza to use ssb later
4. Base goku against hit = Goku using ssg from the start as in the manga. While base = bog/buu arc ss3
5. Monaca beerus vs base goku = Either goku using ssg from the start or rather padding episode/not Toryiama outline
6. Potafou(Purple Vegeta) arc = same as above most likely
7. Base goku surviving hakai energy = either goku using ssg or this episode was filler as golden frieeza > ssg goku

and about future plotlines, I believe will happen:

• Vegeta should turns ssg in anime
• Goku should use kaioken ssb in manga too

[LowRyder2005]

When I pointed out how crazy that was, I was roundly ignored or downvoted to hell on Reddit.

Those Reddit users must be part of the same, restricted cabal of few, dastardly two-base theorists.

Hmm, I disagree that the characters are that slow. It would contradict the original manga, in which Roshi & Piccolo's attack made it to the Moon in a short amount of time. Even if you want to say it took their attacks 100 seconds to get there, the speeds of those attacks would've been around 1% the speed of light. And we're actually supposed to think they're not past the light barrier after the characters getting thousands/millions of times more powerful than before? Impossible.

Sure, it's not apparently contradiction-free, at bare minimum, if you add the original Dragon Ball to the mix. But honestly, with a modicum of deductive reasoning, the most reasonable solution is that Goku has either faster than light reactions (he can dodge beams which are faster than 300,000 km/s) and a comparatively super-slow travelling speed (needs days to get through the Snake's Way), or the moon in the DB universe ends up being much, much closer than ours -- a side effect of Toriyma not bothering too much with the physics of the feat.

After all, you've Goku stopping there between panels to drop the Rabbit Gang. And would the power pole go faster than light? Probably not, I s'pose.

Super Saiyan Blue is referenced to be both more powerful and faster than Super Saiyan God.

Is it said? I thought God was supposed to be faster, just like in the manga (I mean, even if not said, one'd think they're adapting that outline; sounds like a very random diversion otherwise).

[Marlowe89]

I had the same exact idea when Whis sort of implied SSG isn't stronger than SSJ, but just faster.

He didn't really imply that at all. He only mentioned it was faster than Super Saiyan because Goku was specifically aiming to amp up his speed in that scenario, but that doesn't mean that its increased speed doesn't also correlate with increased strength.

And although I don't have the URL with me at the moment, TheSaiyanGod also posted a scan of supplementary Super material that appears to advocate the straightforward notion that Super Saiyan God is stronger than Super Saiyan 3 but weaker than Super Saiyan Blue, as there were arrows between each of Goku's transformations accompanied by a blurb that describes how each level of Super Saiyan powers Goku up further.