Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

As expected, base Vegeta can't do much of anything beyond not go down immediately to Jiren.

Jiren must be especially disgusted with them to not even want to throw them off right away.

Also, it was said that Ultra Instinct Goku landed a solid strong blow that actually knocked the wind out of Jiren a bit, much like how base Vegeta's blows were weak due to his fatigue. Sounds like Goku is getting the hang of Ultra Instinct a bit, since his blows weren't very strong against SS2 Kefla.

[Legion]

I haven't read the above comments but this episode tells me that Ultra Instinct Goku is indeed above Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and the God of Destruction level.

It seems pretty clear that that has to be the case and it would only make sense that they've intend it to be that way.

The only question now is if Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is also above a God of Destruction.

Not really.

UI Goku in none of his appearances was weaker than Vegeta. The notion exists purely to keep the Gods of Destruction relevant, but they aren't. They're old news.

If Beyond Blue Vegeta fought the UI Goku from 110, he would get one shotted out of his transformation by the same punch that Goku gave to Jiren this episode, then thrown away like trash.

Yeah no. But what the hell are you talking about, guys?

Also, people here still take too much seriously lolToei power levels.

[Brettjr25]

Where are people getting this idea that UI Goku has gotten progressively stronger each time he has used it? This has never been stated in the show iirc

Because it has. When he fought Kefla it was stated that he mastered the evasion aspect but not the offense, which is why his attacks weren't as effective. This episode showing that UI is on the verge of being mastered had UI Goku landing a very heavy hit to Jiren casually. You could argue Kefla was more durable IF the show didn't make the point of mentioning why UI Goku attack wasn't working, so you can't and UI Goku now is stronger.

[Zamasu55]

+++ MANGA +++

- 17 easily defeats Murisam, Rubalt and Jium. I want to remind you that the cyborg in the manga is "only" Ssj3 tier.
- 18 easily defeats Prum.
- In the anime Katopesla, in his ultimate form, held his own for a bit against Ssj Vegeta, but in the manga, he's literally one-shotted by the base version of the Prince with ease. Well, that's harsh.
- Nink gets demolished too, and Vegeta wasn't even trying. In the anime the green "man" forced Goku to turn Ssj Blue instead.
- Tupper manages to block Base Goku's movements, just like in the anime.
- On the other hand, Goku turns Ssj and literally stomps four Pride Troopers, including Kahseral.
- Frost easily defeats Oregano.

[Shlugo]

I haven't read the above comments but this episode tells me that Ultra Instinct Goku is indeed above Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and the God of Destruction level.

It seems pretty clear that that has to be the case and it would only make sense that they've intend it to be that way.

The only question now is if Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is also above a God of Destruction.

Was that ever in question? Royal Blue Vegeta has always been presented as his equivalent to Goku's Kaioken Blue, and Ultra Instinct is above that.

[Bullza]

Because he's been completely nerfed. It's not anything else but that, he can glare at Goku at KKX20 Blue to smash him away but now he can't do the same to them in their exhausted Base forms.

I dunno if I'd say he was nerfed because he did glare away Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta's Final Flash not long ago. It's not like he's been hurt by either of them much at all either even when fighting against two of them.

It is odd that it took him so long to beat the Base Saiyans but maybe that's just for effect.

Maybe he just took Goku off guard when he was using the Kaio-ken x20 by using an attack Goku hadn't seen before.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Anyone care to explain why Jiren was unable to finger flick 2 exhausted base saiyans into crippled comas?

Because he's been completely nerfed. It's not anything else but that, he can glare at Goku at KKX20 Blue to smash him away but now he can't do the same to them in their exhausted Base forms.

So, unless someone expects us to believe that tired Base Saiyans in 128 > KKX20 Blue Goku from the special, to which I say bwwahahahahaha fuck off, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

No. Jiren hasn’t been nerfed. He doesn’t need to finger flick people to show his power because we already know he can finger flick people on regular Super Saiyan god power. Lets not forget the fact that jiren is outright overwhelming UI goku in the preview in power and at one point in striking speed.

[Hugo Boss]

The thing about Jiren is that he doesn't have a transformation or a "power up" that is easy to gauge his power. Jiren basically can suppress himself or make himself stronger depending on who he is fighting. Next week will show Jiren being more serious and will have the advantage over UI Goku until he "master's" the form. Then will see a actual 100% Jiren vs Mastered UI Goku.

This. I think he uses as much strength as he feels convenient. Sometimes he gets a surprise hit due to overconfidence.

Where are people getting this idea that UI Goku has gotten progressively stronger each time he has used it? This has never been stated in the show iirc

I agree with Marlowe89 on this part. It’s not like he is stronger per si, but he could be discovering more and more of Ultra Instinct each time he uses it.

Anyone care to explain why Jiren was unable to finger flick 2 exhausted base saiyans into crippled comas?

I think it went this way because the show wanted to explore their motivation.

[ekrolo2]

Anyone care to explain why Jiren was unable to finger flick 2 exhausted base saiyans into crippled comas?

Because he's been completely nerfed. It's not anything else but that, he can glare at Goku at KKX20 Blue to smash him away but now he can't do the same to them in their exhausted Base forms.

So, unless someone expects us to believe that tired Base Saiyans in 128 > KKX20 Blue Goku from the special, to which I say bwwahahahahaha fuck off, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

No. Jiren hasn’t been nerfed. He doesn’t need to finger flick people to show his power because we already know he can finger flick people on regular Super Saiyan god power. Lets not forget the fact that jiren is outright overwhelming UI goku in the preview in power and at one point in striking speed.

It's not about showing power, he's proven himself strong enough to be able to easily dispatch fairly strong people and yet now, when the time is nigh to end this shit, he's not swatting away Goku and Vegeta when they're weaker then ever. There's literally no good reason for it at aaallll.

The nerfing thing is also obvious from earlier episode where Jiren, pointlessly, doesn't just smash KKX20 Blue Goku and ASS Blue Vegeta when we already saw he can do that with little effort at all on his part.

His powers make no sense anymore. He's sometimes portrayed as a no nonsense dude who'll immediately move to take someone out and then he randomly wastes time on piss ant weaklings because the narrative has to dial him back to not instantly win like he really should.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, what are people's thoughts on the emphasis on the strength of one's blows and the (in)ability to effectively strike with a solid hit on one's opponent that has strength behind it?

For example, when Goku awakened the Ultra Instinct against Kefla, his unconscious evasion was more polished than ever before, but his blows had no impact to them and he had to resort to charging up a powerful Kamehameha; against Jiren in the latest episode, he landed a solid hit that had a lot of force behind it, truly knocking the wind out of the Pride Trooper and actually drawing saliva from his mouth when NOTHING ELSE had done so up to this point.

[Issei189]

I wonder why Jiren even needed to block attacks from Base Vegeta and SSB Goku in hand to hand when he could have stand there and tank them

[Kenneth La Torre]

Because he's been completely nerfed. It's not anything else but that, he can glare at Goku at KKX20 Blue to smash him away but now he can't do the same to them in their exhausted Base forms.

So, unless someone expects us to believe that tired Base Saiyans in 128 > KKX20 Blue Goku from the special, to which I say bwwahahahahaha fuck off, it doesn't make a lick of sense.

No. Jiren hasn’t been nerfed. He doesn’t need to finger flick people to show his power because we already know he can finger flick people on regular Super Saiyan god power. Lets not forget the fact that jiren is outright overwhelming UI goku in the preview in power and at one point in striking speed.

It's not about showing power, he's proven himself strong enough to be able to easily dispatch fairly strong people and yet now, when the time is nigh to end this shit, he's not swatting away Goku and Vegeta when they're weaker then ever. There's literally no good reason for it at aaallll.

The nerfing thing is also obvious from earlier episode where Jiren, pointlessly, doesn't just smash KKX20 Blue Goku and ASS Blue Vegeta when we already saw he can do that with little effort at all on his part.

His powers make no sense anymore. He's sometimes portrayed as a no nonsense dude who'll immediately move to take someone out and then he randomly wastes time on piss ant weaklings because the narrative has to dial him back to not instantly win like he really should.

Sorry, but there is no nerfing here. Jiren is just not using the power to finger flick them, that’s it.

It’s all about his personality, not his power. Due to his personality, the dude is wasting time playing with his food, showing off who is the strongest amongs them. Like belmod said, he waits for his opponent to use their best, and then he crushes his opponents strongest attacks.
Ill only agree with you on that his character is very stupid, because he is.

[ekrolo2]

No. Jiren hasn’t been nerfed. He doesn’t need to finger flick people to show his power because we already know he can finger flick people on regular Super Saiyan god power. Lets not forget the fact that jiren is outright overwhelming UI goku in the preview in power and at one point in striking speed.

It's not about showing power, he's proven himself strong enough to be able to easily dispatch fairly strong people and yet now, when the time is nigh to end this shit, he's not swatting away Goku and Vegeta when they're weaker then ever. There's literally no good reason for it at aaallll.

The nerfing thing is also obvious from earlier episode where Jiren, pointlessly, doesn't just smash KKX20 Blue Goku and ASS Blue Vegeta when we already saw he can do that with little effort at all on his part.

His powers make no sense anymore. He's sometimes portrayed as a no nonsense dude who'll immediately move to take someone out and then he randomly wastes time on piss ant weaklings because the narrative has to dial him back to not instantly win like he really should.

Sorry, but there is no nerfing here. Jiren is just not using the power to finger flick them, that’s it.

It’s all about his personality, not his power. Due to his personality, the dude is wasting time playing with his food, showing off who is the strongest amongs them. Like belmod said, he waits for his opponent to use their best, and then he crushes his opponents strongest attacks.
Ill only agree with you on that his character is very stupid, because he is.

No, he makes no sense. Like in Ep 122, he sees Vegeta has the advantage then he tries to blow him out of the ring then in the same episode after the Final Flash, he just blasts Vegeta in place instead.... you know, blowing him out of the ring like he tried to earlier! Or like how Kale going Berserker was enough to prompt him into doing anything so he goes to take her out... but not really, he just pointlessly knocks her out of Berserker instead of just finishing the job. But then he randomly decides to take other people out immediately no bullshit strings attached, like how he ringed out the liquid guy immediately when they confronted one another.

He's not purposefully stupid, the writers have no fucking idea what his personality even is.

[Kenneth La Torre]

It's not about showing power, he's proven himself strong enough to be able to easily dispatch fairly strong people and yet now, when the time is nigh to end this shit, he's not swatting away Goku and Vegeta when they're weaker then ever. There's literally no good reason for it at aaallll.

The nerfing thing is also obvious from earlier episode where Jiren, pointlessly, doesn't just smash KKX20 Blue Goku and ASS Blue Vegeta when we already saw he can do that with little effort at all on his part.

His powers make no sense anymore. He's sometimes portrayed as a no nonsense dude who'll immediately move to take someone out and then he randomly wastes time on piss ant weaklings because the narrative has to dial him back to not instantly win like he really should.

Sorry, but there is no nerfing here. Jiren is just not using the power to finger flick them, that’s it.

It’s all about his personality, not his power. Due to his personality, the dude is wasting time playing with his food, showing off who is the strongest amongs them. Like belmod said, he waits for his opponent to use their best, and then he crushes his opponents strongest attacks.
Ill only agree with you on that his character is very stupid, because he is.

No, he makes no sense. Like in Ep 122, he sees Vegeta has the advantage then he tries to blow him out of the ring then in the same episode after the Final Flash, he just blasts Vegeta in place instead.... you know, blowing him out of the ring like he tried to earlier! Or like how Kale going Berserker was enough to prompt him into doing anything so he goes to take her out... but not really, he just pointlessly knocks her out of Berserker instead of just finishing the job. But then he randomly decides to take other people out immediately no bullshit strings attached, like how he ringed out the liquid guy immediately when they confronted one another.

He's not purposefully stupid, the writers have no fucking idea what his personality even is.

Yes personality wise he is stupid, because the writers are stupid. But based on power, the dude is still just as powerful.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wonder why Jiren even needed to block attacks from Base Vegeta and SSB Goku in hand to hand when he could have stand there and tank them

As I've said before, a good martial artist NEVER simply lets his opponent land a strike. No matter how weak their blows may be, they could get a lucky shot if you aren't on-guard.

These are mortal fighters whose bodies behave like any other mortal's.

If you aren't braced and ready to take a hit, you're gonna feel your opponent's blows. This is why reading movement patterns is so crucial, as it allows you to either prevent an opponent from landing those solid blows or to find an opening to land a solid hit yourself.

[Marlowe89]

I wonder why Jiren even needed to block attacks from Base Vegeta and SSB Goku in hand to hand when he could have stand there and tank them

While he certainly could have tanked base Vegeta's blows, I think this is just to show that Jiren is taking these guys a lot more seriously than he did during his first battle against Goku. They've earned themselves a certain degree of Jiren's respect at this point, so he's responding to them as a proper opponent would.

[jeffbr92]

They've earned themselves a certain degree of Jiren's respect at this point, so he's responding to them as a proper opponent would.

By toying with them? It makes absolute zero sense for Jiren who is miles above SSJB Goku and Vegeta to play around with them on their Base forms.

[Marlowe89]

By toying with them? It makes absolute zero sense for Jiren who is miles above SSJB Goku and Vegeta to play around with them on their Base forms.

You're right, especially with the little time remaining in the tournament, but I'm only examining a potential motive here. I think it's likely a character flaw, no matter how illogical or ridiculous it might be. Jiren doesn't exactly strike me as a super intelligent person anyway.

I definitely see it as a bigger show of respect than just standing there and tanking the blows like he did against Goku initially.

[Helios518]

I wonder why Jiren even needed to block attacks from Base Vegeta and SSB Goku in hand to hand when he could have stand there and tank them

As I've said before, a good martial artist NEVER simply lets his opponent land a strike. No matter how weak their blows may be, they could get a lucky shot if you aren't on-guard.

These are mortal fighters whose bodies behave like any other mortal's.

If you aren't braced and ready to take a hit, you're gonna feel your opponent's blows. This is why reading movement patterns is so crucial, as it allows you to either prevent an opponent from landing those solid blows or to find an opening to land a solid hit yourself.

Except we've seen Geran just stand there and take SSJ/2 Goku's attacks and later on, we saw him do the same with SSJB Vegeta's attacks.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I wonder why Jiren even needed to block attacks from Base Vegeta and SSB Goku in hand to hand when he could have stand there and tank them

As I've said before, a good martial artist NEVER simply lets his opponent land a strike. No matter how weak their blows may be, they could get a lucky shot if you aren't on-guard.

These are mortal fighters whose bodies behave like any other mortal's.

If you aren't braced and ready to take a hit, you're gonna feel your opponent's blows. This is why reading movement patterns is so crucial, as it allows you to either prevent an opponent from landing those solid blows or to find an opening to land a solid hit yourself.

Except we've seen Geran just stand there and take SSJ/2 Goku's attacks and later on, we saw him do the same with SSJB Vegeta's attacks.

And yet later in the exact same fight, we see Vegeta take advantage of Jiren's movement pattern and land a few solid blows that get a good reaction out of him; he also manages to put Jiren on the defensive during this sequence of events.

Sure, Jiren CAN just take the hits if he so chooses, but as we see in both instances that he does this, doing so leaves you as a rock that can't do much of anything else. To me, at least, this makes it clear that you have to go out of your way to take an opponent's blows, and only if you have the power and motivation to do so. Not to mention that Jiren was curious about Vegeta's continued persistence despite his fatigue. After all, if a tired Saiyan can keep going like this, there must be something about his strength of character. That's what I'd imagine Jiren would probably be thinking in this situation.

And what if base Vegeta had landed a solid blow? It could happen. No fighter is simply infallible; if your guard isn't up and you aren't ready, a surprise hit could seriously hurt, even if you're strong enough to take it ordinarily.

I'm just treating a fight as a fight should happen IRL, which seems to be how the current arc's narrative is treating their fights as well, at least to a degree. IRL, you CAN take a hit if you're strong enough and braced for it, but if not, you WILL feel it. We also have to remember that it's these fighters' Ki that grants them their strength, speed, and special abilities. The body will react like it ordinarily does if one's Ki isn't properly utilized to guard against attacks, or if it's simply overpowered by a stronger Ki.