Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

Nobody next episode is going to state that Jiren surpassed God level as with UI Goku since it isn't important. It was already stated back during Jiren and Goku's first fight. No reason to state it again.

Suppressed Jiren was already above God level so the full power version being above God level goes without saying.

[Kaiosama]

I haven't read the above comments but this episode tells me that Ultra Instinct Goku is indeed above Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and the God of Destruction level.

It seems pretty clear that that has to be the case and it would only make sense that they've intend it to be that way.

The only question now is if Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is also above a God of Destruction.

Goku looked like he was putting out far more energy when powering up compared to Beyond Super Saiyan Blue. I'm almost convinced that SS2 Kefla would defeat Vegeta and Toppo now. I think UI Omen is comparable to high-tier GoD level and Mastered UI is when he will finally surpass Beerus and the others.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Nobody next episode is going to state that Jiren surpassed God level as with UI Goku since it isn't important. It was already stated back during Jiren and Goku's first fight. No reason to state it again.

Suppressed Jiren was already above God level so the full power version being above God level goes without saying.

The show wasn’t clear enough it seems. There are people who still think that jiren is only above belmod, as if belmod is the weakest god (the manga says the slightly the opposite). And jiren is going to wreak a UI omen goku (the level of UI that G.o.Ds cap at). They need to make a direct statement. Or the manga needs to do it.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I haven't read the above comments but this episode tells me that Ultra Instinct Goku is indeed above Super Saiyan Royal Blue Vegeta and the God of Destruction level.

It seems pretty clear that that has to be the case and it would only make sense that they've intend it to be that way.

The only question now is if Super Saiyan 2 Kefla is also above a God of Destruction.

It was also very clear that with each appearance of the UI, Goku was stronger than before.

You're treating as if UI from EP 110, 116 and 128 had the same power, and you're also treating as if Kefla SSJ2 overcame that power.
Even if she overcomes the UI of EP 110, it is not comparable to either the UI of EP 116.

UI Omen now is obviously above Vegeta, but it's only because he's much stronger than before. In previous appearances, he was weaker

[SaiyanSoul]

The thing about Jiren is that he doesn't have a transformation or a "power up" that is easy to gauge his power. Jiren basically can suppress himself or make himself stronger depending on who he is fighting. Next week will show Jiren being more serious and will have the advantage over UI Goku until he "master's" the form. Then will see a actual 100% Jiren vs Mastered UI Goku.

[supersaiyangodgogeta]

UI Goku in none of his appearances was weaker than Vegeta. The notion exists purely to keep the Gods of Destruction relevant, but they aren't. They're old news.

If Beyond Blue Vegeta fought the UI Goku from 110, he would get one shotted out of his transformation by the same punch that Goku gave to Jiren this episode, then thrown away like trash.

[dragon boss z]

So can we all agree that Beyond Super Saiyan Blue was underwhelming?

Considering that it is most likely a Toei original transformation and didn't come from Toriyama, it makes sense. And he beat Toppo which was impressive enough.

[amuroray]

We are at the point were Goku and jirens power levels are to far ahead of everyone elses.

They could take on the rest of the tournaments fighters together lol

[Bullza]

You're treating as if UI from EP 110, 116 and 128 had the same power, and you're also treating as if Kefla SSJ2 overcame that power.
Even if she overcomes the UI of EP 110, it is not comparable to either the UI of EP 116.

Ultra Instinct was implied to have the same power in both Episode 110 and 116 until Goku powered up further and then there was a notable difference.

There was no mention of Ultra Instinct being any stronger in this episode than in Episode 116 so until mentioned otherwise you'd have to assume it was roughly the same.

It's possible Kefla could still be below Vegeta and Toppo if Ultra Instinct Goku was back in Episode 110 but chances are we'll probably never know.

[Kenneth La Torre]

The fact that jiren doesn’t have a power up or a transformation is what made people go from (the dude is broken) to (the dude has been nerded). We don’t know what percentage of his power the dude has shown.

Next episode shows jiren overwhelming UI goku quite easily. Meaning that when he powered up in 127, it wasn’t even half his power, yet the episode made it seem like the dude was unleashing his true power.

[TheSaiyanGod]

You're treating as if UI from EP 110, 116 and 128 had the same power, and you're also treating as if Kefla SSJ2 overcame that power.
Even if she overcomes the UI of EP 110, it is not comparable to either the UI of EP 116.

Ultra Instinct was implied to have the same power in both Episode 110 and 116 until Goku powered up further and then there was a notable difference.

There was no mention of Ultra Instinct being any stronger in this episode than in Episode 116 so until mentioned otherwise you'd have to assume it was roughly the same.

It's possible Kefla could still be below Vegeta and Toppo if Ultra Instinct Goku was back in Episode 110 but chances are we'll probably never know.

Piccolo said that Kefla could incite Goku to increase his power, Kefla himself states that Goku was increasing his power ... even Goku did not even need to get much stronger to dominate Kefla (if Kefla is stronger than UI of EP 110, and you're saying that the EP 110 UI has the same power as the EP 116 UI, so she should have defeated Goku at 116, but that did not happen because Goku increased his power.)

In the current episodes it was also clear that Goku was stronger, and now after activating the UI managed to hit an effective punch, which has not happened before.
Then he is stronger.

It's hard to say if Vegeta Beyond Blue and Toppo Hakaishin overcame Goku UI from EP 110, but if they put Kefla above the UI of EP 110, then Vegeta and Toppo should be above, for they are stronger than Kefla.
Vegeta was facing a Jiren who was claimed to be stronger than Kefla, and after this he still faced a even more powered up Jiren.

[Bullza]

Piccolo said that Kefla could incite Goku to increase his power, Kefla himself states that Goku was increasing his power ... even Goku did not even need to get much stronger to dominate Kefla (if Kefla is stronger than UI of EP 110, and you're saying that the EP 110 UI has the same power as the EP 116 UI, so she should have defeated Goku at 116, but that did not happen because Goku increased his power.)

No, I'm saying that when Goku became Ultra Instinct for the second time then at first he would have been as strong as he was in Episode 110. Then before he actually started fighting Kefla he powered up significantly so he was stronger now.

The Ultra Instinct Goku who appeared in tonight's episode would presumably be as strong as he was when we last saw him. Not even stronger still.

It's hard to say if Vegeta Beyond Blue and Toppo Hakaishin overcame Goku UI from EP 110, but if they put Kefla above the UI of EP 110, then Vegeta and Toppo should be above, for they are stronger than Kefla.
Vegeta was facing a Jiren who was claimed to be stronger than Kefla, and after this he still faced a even more powered up Jiren.

The suppressed Jiren might be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla but he was also stronger than Vegeta and Toppo as well. Vegeta might have faced him but he was repeatedly getting his ass kicked. For all we know Kefla could be closer to that level than Vegeta.

[Kaiosama]

Vegeta might be able to beat UI Goku from 110, but he would get stomped by Goku now. I thought differently before, but today made it perfectly clear. Let's not forget Toppo is low-tier GoD since he is only a candidate and hasn't mastered his hakai energy. SSJ2 Kefla would also beat Vegeta. Vegeta's form was underwhelming and nothing special. He's back to the gap he had between Goku and him at the end of Z. I don't know how he could ever be considered a legitimate rival to Beerus at this point. That was clear pandering from Toyotaro.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Piccolo said that Kefla could incite Goku to increase his power, Kefla himself states that Goku was increasing his power ... even Goku did not even need to get much stronger to dominate Kefla (if Kefla is stronger than UI of EP 110, and you're saying that the EP 110 UI has the same power as the EP 116 UI, so she should have defeated Goku at 116, but that did not happen because Goku increased his power.)

No, I'm saying that when Goku became Ultra Instinct for the second time then at first he would have been as strong as he was in Episode 110. Then before he actually started fighting Kefla he powered up significantly so he was stronger now.

The Ultra Instinct Goku who appeared in tonight's episode would presumably be as strong as he was when we last saw him. Not even stronger still.

It's hard to say if Vegeta Beyond Blue and Toppo Hakaishin overcame Goku UI from EP 110, but if they put Kefla above the UI of EP 110, then Vegeta and Toppo should be above, for they are stronger than Kefla.
Vegeta was facing a Jiren who was claimed to be stronger than Kefla, and after this he still faced a even more powered up Jiren.

The suppressed Jiren might be stronger than Super Saiyan 2 Kefla but he was also stronger than Vegeta and Toppo as well. Vegeta might have faced him but he was repeatedly getting his ass kicked. For all we know Kefla could be closer to that level than Vegeta.

But if base Goku is much stronger than before (after all, his SSB is also stronger), so naturally the power up of the UI will also make him stronger than before (even if he has not increased power yet) .

So, it would be stronger than the UI of EP 116 and stronger than Kefla.

In fact, Vegeta faced an even more suppressed Jiren than in EP 109 and 110 (EP where he faced UI Goku) and who was declared to be above Kefla, and was pressing Jiren, until he struck a blow. But Jiren picked up the pace and won the advantage again.
Then, Jiren gets stronger and Vegeta manages to fight relatively well against him next to Goku.
After that, Jiren uses his true power (even stronger than before) and Vegeta with his new form, after beating Toppo, also manages to fight well against him, even praised by him

So I see it actually above Kefla SSJ2, especially if it is stronger than the current SSB KK x20 (which is also much stronger than the SSB KK x20 of the EP 109).
If Kefla is superior to the EP 110 UI, I see no reason why Vegeta and Toppo (it was said that he was no different than a Hakaishin) are also not

[Bullza]

But if base Goku is much stronger than before (after all, his SSB is also stronger), so naturally the power up of the UI will also make him stronger than before (even if he has not increased power yet).

It might not work like that at all. It might have been that way with the original Super Saiyan forms but it may not be that way with the God forms or Ultra Instinct.

I've never thought it was that way really. It would mean that a hypothetical Super Saiyan God Vegeta in the Resurrection F saga would be hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku from the Battle of Gods saga.

[Marlowe89]

Ultra Instinct itself is what was implied to have become stronger as Goku gradually increases his familiarity with the form -- assuming it works as a multiplier (e.g. Super Saiyan), which it may or may not, the fact remains that Goku hasn't completed the form enough to have actually reached the presumed full multiplier yet. He's simply climbing closer to its full power the more he uses the form, so I doubt this has any connection to his base strength.

[Kenneth La Torre]

But if base Goku is much stronger than before (after all, his SSB is also stronger), so naturally the power up of the UI will also make him stronger than before (even if he has not increased power yet).

It might not work like that at all. It might have been that way with the original Super Saiyan forms but it may not be that way with the God forms or Ultra Instinct.

I've never thought it was that way really. It would mean that a hypothetical Super Saiyan God Vegeta in the Resurrection F saga would be hundreds of times stronger than Super Saiyan God Goku from the Battle of Gods saga.

Which is true. A hypothetical ssg vegeta from the RoF saga would be many times above a SSG Goku From BoG saga.

[AvatarReiko]

Where are people getting this idea that UI Goku has gotten progressively stronger each time he has used it? This has never been stated in the show iirc

[The Monkey King]

Anyone care to explain why Jiren was unable to finger flick 2 exhausted base saiyans into crippled comas?

[ekrolo2]

Anyone care to explain why Jiren was unable to finger flick 2 exhausted base saiyans into crippled comas?

Because he's been completely nerfed. It's not anything else but that, he can glare at Goku at KKX20 Blue to smash him away but now he can't do the same to them in their exhausted Base forms.

So, unless someone expects us to believe that tired Base Saiyans in 128 > KKX20 Blue Goku from the special, to which I say bwwahahahahaha fuck off, it doesn't make a lick of sense.