Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[SansrivaaL]

Can someone post the reactions of all big fighters shown exactly when Kale transforms?

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Great

Here it is clear that everyone except Jiren is either impressed, worried or tensed, but Freeza is smiling.
I guess that should be a decent hint that she is not SSB level

[spoiler]

Herms answered me on Twitter and confirmed that Goku said he would release a LITTLE bit more of his power (after turning into SSB). That '' a little '' should be compared to his SSJ2 form.

This confirms that the power used by Goku at that time was not much in comparison to the total power of the SSB. It was only a small release of power.

So, I do not really see Kale at the level of Goku SSB. We have already had other clues such as the fact that Goku did not even get scratched or bruised after all and act as if nothing had happened.

[/spoiler]

And this should confirm her not being on the same level as SSB.

I'd say it is safe to put her in the same realm as Gohan who is above the likes of #17 and Piccolo but below SSB Goku. This also fits well with (presumably) KKSSB level Jiren one-shotting her like Goku did to Gohan.

Toppo's expression is always like that tho 17 looks tensed but yeah Freeza's smiling, he doesnt smile when he feels he's outmatched.

Hmm yeah probably around Ulti Gohan, he sent SSJB Goku flying.

[Marlowe89]

Well Buu can regenerate so maybe that's a big part of it. He did come back from Beerus' attack and even Goku couldn't do that.

We only see Buu regenerating once or twice during the fight though. In every other exchange, he's either tanking everything Basil throws at him or he's just tearing him a new one.

And again, that still doesn't explain how the base Saiyans were having trouble individually with fighters that were confirmed to be weaker than Basil. Meanwhile, Buu didn't even have that much of an issue with drugged Basil.

Goku fought Buu and said he was faster than before so Goku must also be faster than Fat Buu. So he probably should be more powerful than Buu.

It still wouldn't make any sense for Buu to be using his full power during his skirmish against Goku, otherwise Goku wouldn't have told him they're just doing ring-out practice and Mr. Satan's compound would have been in serious danger. I'd wager that Goku just meant that the new, slimmer version of Buu is faster than fat Buu in general, which would obviously extend to Buu restraining himself.

He's able to withstand Basil's attack easily and even push back SS Caulifla (who should at least be a bit stronger than base) before she visibly powers up and knocks him out of the stadium.

While she's pushed back by Napapa at first, it ends up working in her favour as she's moved closer to the ring, allowing her to use her full power and defeat Napapa with ease. It seems she was suppressed.

That's how I see it, more or less. Caulifla dealt with Napapa rather easily after she was pushed to the edge of the ring, so I really don't think she was outputting anything close to her full power until the end of that exchange.

Napapa struggled with Basil, so that should make him closer to the base Saiyans.

[ChiefWamsutta]

[spoiler][/spoiler]

Great

Here it is clear that everyone except Jiren is either impressed, worried or tensed, but Freeza is smiling.
I guess that should be a decent hint that she is not SSB level

[spoiler]

Herms answered me on Twitter and confirmed that Goku said he would release a LITTLE bit more of his power (after turning into SSB). That '' a little '' should be compared to his SSJ2 form.

This confirms that the power used by Goku at that time was not much in comparison to the total power of the SSB. It was only a small release of power.

So, I do not really see Kale at the level of Goku SSB. We have already had other clues such as the fact that Goku did not even get scratched or bruised after all and act as if nothing had happened.

[/spoiler]

And this should confirm her not being on the same level as SSB.

I'd say it is safe to put her in the same realm as Gohan who is above the likes of #17 and Piccolo but below SSB Goku. This also fits well with (presumably) KKSSB level Jiren one-shotting her like Goku did to Gohan.

Yeah, this is where I put everyone who is known to be god tier from the tournament:

Above SSBlue Tier
Jiren
SSB KK Goku

High SSBlue Tier
Toppo
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = True Golden Frieza
Hit

Low SSBlue Tier
SSBerserker Kale
Android #17
Ultimate Gohan

I was considering changing this to add characters from past arcs too like SSRose Goku Black, SSRage Future Trunks, Merged Zamasu, SSB Vegito, and Beerus.

[Bullza]

I don't think I'm gonna believe in there being two bases anymore.

I just had a look at a few episodes with the proper Crunchyroll subs and even though it's mostly the same there are a few little details that are different. More clear really I suppose.

So what it would seem actually happened is that Vegeta went to Beerus' planet to train, he did a whole bunch of chores and training like lifting the blocks and so after 6 months it's made him stronger than ever.

He gets thrown into Whis' staff and encounters God Ki for the first time so of course was not a Super Saiyan God or a Saiyan Beyond God before this and some time whilst in there, he along with Goku learn how to become Super Saiyan God's (or Blue) on their own as a result of harsh training as was said by King Kai and Goku.

There's another couple details but I won't go into that.

It's just the one Base form that's far stronger than it ever was in Z but nowhere near as strong as Super Saiyan God. The anime is actually very much like the manga except Super Saiyan God just doesn't reappear in the anime.

How strong that Base form is supposed to be exactly is anyone's guess, obviously being above Super Saiyan 3 Gotenks is what it should be, why he doesn't always seem that strong though is probably another reason but not a two bases reason. Maybe it's just inconsistent writing or Goku matches his strength appropriately like he has done with Super Saiyan Blue when he's fought Krillin and 17.

[LowRyder2005]

I admit I'm kind of lost as to why you'd go back to the "one super strong base" after these latest episodes, of all things. The more time it passes the more I'm convinced the outlook creates far too many inconsistencies and contradictions compared to those that it very supposedly solves. Among the problems are the Super Saiyan multipliers changing for no reasons for all characters, Gohan's strength being impossible to reconcile with production notes and characters' statements, the Good Buu's strength somehow far surpassing SS3 Gotenks' when it clearly couldn't be the case back in Z and the Trio De Danger's strength being the most obvious offenders.

I feel like it's objectively far easier to justify Vegeta's situation like this: he probably became stronger than the good ol' regular base Goku thanks to Whis' training regime, enough to become "unrecognizable". Most importantly, this doesn't necessarily have to reflect something à la "base Vegeta = SS2 Vegeta from BOG". It may simply refer to Vegeta's base form reaching some impressive level (an overall *2 or *3 could easily qualify as such, as the Saiyans had basically hit their plateau during the post-Cell Game), making him "unrecognizable" while untransformed. Vegeta then obtained the infamous "godly ki" after the "so this is god ki" scene and going through some equivalent of the SSG ritual off-screen (again, all the material we have at hand states they have to obtain Super Saiyan God's power before going Blue; hence it sounds improbable he could've obtained Blue by regular training), all of which happens after he's reunited with Goku himself. With this second ritual (or whatever thing Super implied through the character material) Vegeta also gets the equally infamous "second base", which is just the "one and only base" - contextually meant to replace every other transformation bar Blue - seen in the ROF movie.

Of course, I think it's also a fair assessment if you argued that there's in fact supposed to be "one strong base" but the writing is completely all over the place and/or that a retcon took place. Again, though, the "one-stronger-than-Gotenks-base" theory is, the less viable alternative and something that jars with basically every power-related notion in Super starting from 40 episodes ago or so.

[Vados_chan]

People still denying that Kale is SSB+ level? she wasn't even trying nor did she have proper control over her form. That's what the skinnier form is for i think.

[RedHeat]

Speaking of Kale, has anyone figured out how strong her base form is?

[ssbgoku]

The reason why Kale isn't close to or equal current ssb goku:

1. Neither God of Destruction has commented on this, not even kaioshin
2. Toppo wasn't worried just straight annoyed and talked about Kale possible getting threat if it kept up
3. Final Form Frieeza isn't worried either which shows that his golden form is comfortable above Berserker Kale
4. Hit saying Kale may kill someone didn't seem concerned about anyone just particulary(as goku for example or Kale being threat to him) just her getting disqualified if she attacks some weak opponent
5. Goku stated that he is only going to release a little more power (~ ssj3, possibly slightly > ssj3)
6. Goku was no damaged at all.

In-universe explanation: Goku was holding back to test her and only using minimal possible power to not get damaged instead of trying to beat her so she would run out of power after some time OR Goku wanted and used Kale becoming threat as possible way to force Jiren to act or possible Topo to intervene and waste some stamina while playing smart and saving own stamina OR Goku wanted to test himself and endure/make himself stronger.

Out-of-universe explanation: It was pure fan service and Homage to Brolly, they just wanted to go by hype of new characters at cost of universe earlier predefined lore and power level of Kale(ss2 califula managing to blow Blast away even although Kale was overhelmed by her KI)

Lastly, either battle damage is not consistent and characters are made from ruber and are invincible until plot defence of them wear off OR Some animator who was responsible for animating last part of previous episode(100), just said "screw this bullshit, and hype" and made goku with no damage smilling to fight with Jiren.

also I am not sure why people are so impressed with Jiren one-shotting Kale when he took her by suprise from side and she was not focused on him, I bet goku would take her out the same if he attacked from side and she was attacking someone else...

at the most: Current ssb goku > Current ssg goku(if he could become red) > Berserker Kale > current ss3 goku

[Lord Beerus]

Speaking of Kale, has anyone figured out how strong her base form is?

It's very ambiguous. We have no idea as to how powerful the two Universe 10 fighters (Mechiop & Napapa) were before Caulifla turned SSJ and laid the smackdown on them.

[Marlowe89]

It just occurred to me that if Goku said he was using only a "little" more of his power against Kale compared to his prior state as a Super Saiyan 2, a Super Saiyan Blue Goku that's holding back could possess a level of strength ranging anywhere from Super Saiyan 3 to God level. This is further supported by his almost complete neglect of the Super Saiyan 3 form in DBS's entire 100+ episode run -- whenever Goku encounters an opponent stronger than his Super Saiyan 2, he typically responds by just skipping straight to Blue.

Android 17, Ultimate Gohan and Legendary Super Saiyan Kale are all rather difficult to rank just due to this fact. I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw them performing below God level at this point, although it's unfortunate that the writers are just piling more confusion on top of everything.

[gofishus]

It just occurred to me that if Goku said he was using only a "little" more of his power against Kale compared to his prior state as a Super Saiyan 2, a Super Saiyan Blue Goku that's holding back could possess a level of strength ranging anywhere from Super Saiyan 3 to God level. This is further supported by his almost complete neglect of the Super Saiyan 3 form in DBS's entire 100+ episode run -- whenever Goku encounters an opponent stronger than his Super Saiyan 2, he typically responds by just skipping straight to Blue.

Android 17, Ultimate Gohan and Legendary Super Saiyan Kale are all rather difficult to rank just due to this fact. I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw them performing below God level at this point, although it's unfortunate that the writers are just piling more confusion on top of everything.

Indeed. Just because Goku fought with them at SSJ Blue level doesn't mean they are SSJ Blue level. SSJB is unique due to being able to surpress the power level all the way down to slightly above SSJ2 level if needed.

[TheSaiyanGod]

It just occurred to me that if Goku said he was using only a "little" more of his power against Kale compared to his prior state as a Super Saiyan 2, a Super Saiyan Blue Goku that's holding back could possess a level of strength ranging anywhere from Super Saiyan 3 to God level. This is further supported by his almost complete neglect of the Super Saiyan 3 form in DBS's entire 100+ episode run -- whenever Goku encounters an opponent stronger than his Super Saiyan 2, he typically responds by just skipping straight to Blue.

Android 17, Ultimate Gohan and Legendary Super Saiyan Kale are all rather difficult to rank just due to this fact. I wouldn't be too surprised if we saw them performing below God level at this point, although it's unfortunate that the writers are just piling more confusion on top of everything.

I would say that Goku using SSB (while regulating the power used) would be much better than turning into SSJ3 (spending tons of Ki, more than on SSB) and having to make more effort in that form to stop Kale.

The use of the Blue form would be much more efficient

[Marlowe89]

I would say that Goku using SSB (while regulating the power used) would be much better than turning into SSJ3 (spending tons of Ki, more than on SSB) and having to make more effort in that form to stop Kale.

The use of the Blue form would be much more efficient

I'd agree with that; the in-universe reasoning makes perfect sense. It's the out-of-universe, authorial reasoning that's so jarring because it makes an already difficult-to-decipher power scale that much more ambiguous and challenging to piece together. This is especially true for 17 and Ultimate Gohan, as you'd need to see them squaring off against more concretely-placed opponents to really get an idea of where those characters rank overall. I'm not a fan of the writers' tendency this arc to portray Goku using that form against characters who are potentially vastly weaker than its full power, especially in a franchise that was always known for being relatively straightforward prior to Super.

I will concur that it's generally more sensible to have LSS Kale much closer to Goku's Super Saiyan 3 than his Blue form, but we don't know exactly where she'd stand amongst characters in that tier either.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I would say that Goku using SSB (while regulating the power used) would be much better than turning into SSJ3 (spending tons of Ki, more than on SSB) and having to make more effort in that form to stop Kale.

The use of the Blue form would be much more efficient

I'd agree with that; the in-universe reasoning makes perfect sense. It's the out-of-universe, authorial reasoning that's so jarring because it makes an already difficult-to-decipher power scale that much more ambiguous and challenging to piece together. This is especially true for 17 and Ultimate Gohan, as you'd need to see them squaring off against more concretely-placed opponents to really get an idea of where those characters rank overall. I'm not a fan of the writers' tendency this arc to portray Goku using that form against characters who are potentially vastly weaker than its full power, especially in a franchise that was always known for being relatively straightforward prior to Super.

I will concur that it's generally more sensible to have LSS Kale much closer to Goku's Super Saiyan 3 than his Blue form, but we don't know exactly where she'd stand amongst characters in that tier either.

I believe that this constant use of SSB is Marketing question perhaps? familiarize the fans in this form or make it become more popular.
I do not know, just a desire for TOEI itself, as we saw it being used in situations that had no need.

And sm, because of this it is very difficult to set the level of Gohan and 17 for example. Things become more confusing, since they leave it implied that Goku held on, without explaining much, with only a few clues

[JulianStyles]

Herms answered me on Twitter and confirmed that Goku said he would release a LITTLE bit more of his power (after turning into SSB). That '' a little '' should be compared to his SSJ2 form.

This confirms that the power used by Goku at that time was not much in comparison to the total power of the SSB. It was only a small release of power.

So, I do not really see Kale at the level of Goku SSB. We have already had other clues such as the fact that Goku did not even get scratched or bruised after all and act as if nothing had happened.

With that, where does Keeru fit into a power ranking?

Herms is not the say all end all. And his been exposed for bad translations before. This confirms nothing. Why should it be compared to his SS2 form when he skipped an entire form to go SSB?

Goku kept screaming while doing the Kamehameha. Which means he was putting more and more into it. If Goku started at a 1 and while Kale was walking through it, dont think he kept releasing energy to stop her? I'm not sure if he went 100% but it wasnt some him holding back.

[Basako]

I think the fact that Jiren decided to intervine could indicate Kale's power is huge. The guy was just standing until then.

She does defend from a SSB Kamehameha. I don't know how full Goku went, but he was not sparring. She kicked him in SS2 like a doll, he should have shown some battle damage after that, btw. His next appearance smiling and saying hi was ridiculous.

[TheSaiyanGod]

Herms answered me on Twitter and confirmed that Goku said he would release a LITTLE bit more of his power (after turning into SSB). That '' a little '' should be compared to his SSJ2 form.

This confirms that the power used by Goku at that time was not much in comparison to the total power of the SSB. It was only a small release of power.

So, I do not really see Kale at the level of Goku SSB. We have already had other clues such as the fact that Goku did not even get scratched or bruised after all and act as if nothing had happened.

With that, where does Keeru fit into a power ranking?

Herms is not the say all end all. And his been exposed for bad translations before. This confirms nothing. Why should it be compared to his SS2 form when he skipped an entire form to go SSB?

Goku kept screaming while doing the Kamehameha. Which means he was putting more and more into it. If Goku started at a 1 and while Kale was walking through it, dont think he kept releasing energy to stop her? I'm not sure if he went 100% but it wasnt some him holding back.

Other members who know Japanese have confirmed this. Even I, who do not even know Japanese, can see that this "choto" has been used at other times to refer to "little".

The SSJ3 spends much more energy than SSJ2 and SSB. He would have to make a much greater effort in this form and would spend more energy. It would be much worse for him.
And Goku just screamed once while wearing the Kamehameha, and that does not mean anything because he also screamed when he used against Kuririn and 17

[TheSaiyanGod]

I think the fact that Jiren decided to intervine could indicate Kale's power is huge. The guy was just standing until then.

She does defend from a SSB Kamehameha. I don't know how full Goku went, but he was not sparring. She kicked him in SS2 like a doll, he should have shown some battle damage after that, btw. His next appearance smiling and saying hi was ridiculous.

But Kale's purpose in that episode was just that. Create more Hype for Jiren. Some characters were not even far away desperate, just impressed. Nothing was said about her being equal to an SSB. Freeza was smiling after it was her transformation and Goku took no damage

[Basako]

But Kale's purpose in that episode was just that. Create more Hype for Jiren. Some characters were not even far away desperate, just impressed. Nothing was said about her being equal to an SSB. Freeza was smiling after it was her transformation and Goku took no damage

Yeah, who knows. Maybe she is less than SSB, being out of control is what made her dangerous, so Jiren stepped in. Goku has nothing between SS3 and SSB to use, but she did throw his Kamehameha like nothing. I think we need more footage to position her. She is clearly above the SS forms, that's clear.

[ChiefWamsutta]

I'm wondering if this is more accurate:

God of Destruction Tier
Beerus

Above SSBlue Tier
Jiren (Subject to Movement)
SSB Vegito
Merged Zamasu
SSB KK Goku

SSBlue Tier
Toppo
SSB Goku = SSB Vegeta = SSRage Future Trunks = True Golden Frieza
Hit
SSRose Goku Black

SSGod Tier
SSBerserker Kale (Subject to Movement)
Android 17 (Subject to Movement)
Ultimate Gohan (Subject to Movement)

I put SSBerserker Kale, Android 17, and Ultimate Gohan at SSGod Tier because Goku's power could have been between SS3 and SSB. SSRose Goku Black I put lower because SSB Goku, SSB Vegeta, and SSRage Future Trunks were putting out power against Merged Zamasu; however, I am not entirely sure where he could be placed.