Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[PFM18]

I mean, I agree, Goku's power in SSG clearly got retconned. It's the only way to make sense out of the dogshit scaling in this dogshit series but it's not stated anywhere in the ToP that Goku's SSG form is somehow weaker than it was before. You can't say it's "implied" because a fight doesn't make sense if you don't do some mental gymnastics to justify it. It's nothing but headcanon. It's implied when you are given design cues or dialogue.

It isn't a retcon. Not at all. It is just a consequence of what happened in episodes 13/14. I never said it was weaker than it was before, just that the multiplier isn't the same. Obviously the SSG we see in the ToP still dwarfs BoG SSG. Also, don't' pretend that you aren't perfectly willing to use mental gymnastics to justify all the shit going on in the original series. (of course this isn't mental gymnastics in the first place.)

There are hints that I have already explained. Deducing that the SSG multiplier is nothing but a natural extrapolation from what we know. We know that Goku had already adapted to that level of power and retained it through experiencing it and "making it his own." He made it his own, and so naturally using the transformation wouldn't yield the same boost as it used to. We see that our natural suspicions have been confirmed when Goku doesn't smash Goku and Caulifla's faces in.

Yes, correct, this is in fact what we've been saying. He should have crushed Kefla as well.

You're missing the point. Caulifla and Kale were giving SSG Goku some trouble as as duo. Naturally, their fusion's Base form should be plenty to pound Goku's face in as a SSG. Once it was already established that Goku wasn't too far ahead of Caulifla and Kale, it should be obvious that the "absorption" scene means he doesn't attain the same boost from SSG. Again, this prevents the level of bloat that would result from having SSJ(post-ritual)>>BoG SSG while SSG having the same astronomically large multiplier with SSB on top of SSG.

Seriously? We're using "gave a bit of trouble" as evidence? In the series where base Goku can force Jiren to block and dodge his hits? In the series where SSB gets pushed around by everyone and everything? Everyone gives everyone a "bit of trouble" in this dogshit show.

"SSB getting pushed around by everyone and everything".....lol.

yeah Base Goku just tanked all of Jiren's hits. Jiren didn't bother to dodge until Goku went SSG. But the point is that Goku didn't instantly one shot them. That's our evidence. If the multiplier was the same it would not have even been a contest. Regardless of how you want to personally define how close it was, it was clearly a contest.

This is the exact definition of headcanon.

Using intuition to rationalize natural results of the story's previous events? Yeah I don't think so, but if so, then people have been using head canon for anything and everything all the time.

[RandomGuy96]

SSB Goku (holding back).

Ah, the common refrain of every Super fan.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I always like to simplify things, and not fan-retcon things if possible, though I admit my interpretations don't match up with people's conceptualizations around here when they think of those conditions; that's fine, as long as we all agree that we don't have to agree.

For example, if Ultimate Gohan is anywhere near as strong as SSB Goku, which he should be going by both the manga and anime, and if his boost is still proportionally as strong as it was from his base form as before when he first got it (a.k.a. far greater than even SS3's 400 times), SSG can't be far behind then in terms of boost from base form.

And if the base form of the Saiyans is impressively strong, and you maintain a similar Potara Fusion like Vegito that could produce results similar in power to the proportional boost of Ultimate from this level of base form, you could potentially surpass SSG with the base form of a Potara Fusion.

Gohan's the key here, funny enough. His Ultimate power, whilst below SSB, is at a level comparable to some version of Kefla. In the manga, it's the weaker SS Kefla that implies they're both below SSB Goku; in the anime, it would seem to be the Vegito-esque base Kefla, greater than SSG but still requiring a higher form to tackle SSB.

This interpretation also handily places Ultimate Gohan and probably 17 on the overall scale of things; stronger than SSG, but not by a significant enough margin to render SSG worthless against them and also squarely below the full power of SSB-level opponents.

Once again, you don't have to agree, just accept that we all think differently and that your own interpretation doesn't necessarily logically follow for others, just like mine doesn't for you guys

[PFM18]

I still like how people try to justify:

SSG Goku >>> SS2 Kale + SS2 Caulifla as back-up > SS2 Kale > LSS Kale >>>>> SSB Goku [Kamehameha] > SSB Goku > SSG Goku

It should have been obvious that Goku was heavily suppressed in episode 100 when Kale walked through the KHH.

Base Kefla > SSG Goku > SS3 Vegetto

I explained why this isn't actually the case.

Goku's having trouble thanks to Kale, Caulifla is little more than an irritant he has to occasionally smack away, the episode very clearly demonstrates this by having Kale (with difficulty) overpower Goku's blast while Caulifla resorts to and fails at running away from it.

Obviously Kale is stronger than Caulifla. No shit. I never said otherwise. The point is that the pair of Caulifla and Kale were giving Goku at least some difficulty, so naturally the Base form of the fusion SHOULD be able to do much more than the duo unfused.

This also leads into the fact Caulifla is damaged goods and quite a lot weaker than Kale, even when they're both healthy Caulifla is much weaker than her in their transformed states. When they fuse she's weaker AND damaged goods. Yet, she is apparently strong enough to beat up SSG Goku anyway in Base form. Unless you're going to tell me Base Kefla gets a boost from the girls transformed states stacked on top of a fusion boost, she has no business overpowering Goku without transforming beforehand.

Caulifla and Goku were even in equivalent forms. Their Base forms were even, and their SSJ2 forms were even. Kefla's Base should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Caulifla from what we know at the very least. Yes, Kale is stronger but not dramatically so, not to such an extent that they wouldn't meet the fusion's requirements of being relatively close in power. We know that potara's boost yields more if the characters are closer in power.

It really makes perfect sense. It is clear that you guys are dead set on complaining the scaling in DBS regardless of what actually happens.

[ekrolo2]

Caulifla and Goku were even in equivalent forms. Their Base forms were even, and their SSJ2 forms were even. Kefla's Base should be stronger than a hypothetical SSJ3 Caulifla from what we know at the very least. Yes, Kale is stronger but not dramatically so, not to such an extent that they wouldn't meet the fusion's requirements of being relatively close in power. We know that potara's boost yields more if the characters are closer in power.

It really makes perfect sense. It is clear that you guys are dead set on complaining the scaling in DBS regardless of what actually happens.

Kale is NOT equal to Caulifla, she is very obviously much stronger than her when comparing their performances against SSG Goku in their transformed states. Caulifla during that fight gets smacked around and blasted hard enough to not be able to move anymore, this creates a power disparity and means she's damaged goods.

So yeah, unless SSG is barely any stronger than SS3, Base Kefla shouldn't be performing so well against it.

[BlueBasilisk]

There's also the implication that Goku isn't at full power. They keep harping on about how tired he is and how much he's pushing himself in that stretch of episodes. Champa even says he thinks Kefla can take SSB Goku because he hasn't recovered his stamina from fighting Jiren.

Yes, they do say this. Until Kefla pulls SS2 out of her ass next episode and she has enough power to handle Omen Goku, with attacks so strong that, according to Roshi, could even kill him.

Now ask yourself the question: could SS2 Vegetto do that?

Vegetto doesn't have Kale's version of SS2 which appears to be a hell of a lot stronger than the normal SS2.

[PFM18]

Kale is NOT equal to Caulifla

Uhhh,yeah that's what I said? I I agreed with you when you said that last time? I would certainly recommend reading the post you are responding to.

So yeah, unless SSG is barely any stronger than SS3, Base Kefla shouldn't be performing so well against it.

\

Yeah that was the implication earlier. SSG only performed slightly better than SSJ3. SSG functioned to give Goku a power boost from absorbing the power/adapting to it's power in such a way that his SSJ had equaled it and then surpassed it.(Very clearly occurred in episodes 13/14) Now that he has made the power his own, it would make no sense for it to yieild the same outragesouly large multiplier. SSG(post-ritual) by all indications we have seen, (three of them in those few episodes alone) is at the absolute most a couple times stronger than SSJ3.

[Miracles]

Why would Goku hold back against Kale when the strategy was to not to wast stamina in the TOP? He was already in SSJ2 against her, if he wanted to hold back power he would not have used Blue. Not to mention no where was it ever implied or stated that Goku was holding back. It's simply not canon Dragonball, using your best form to hold back against an opponent. Like what? What about the statements from Toppo and Vegeta about Kale not being underestimated and being called a monster? Jiren even recognized her TWICE! I'm sorry, the story is showing that Kale is on that Blue level. It's even in both mediums.

[PFM18]

Why would Goku hold back against Kale when the strategy was to not to wast stamina in the TOP? He was already in SSJ2 against her, if he wanted to hold back power he would not have used Blue. Not to mention no where was it ever implied or stated that Goku was holding back. It's simply not canon Dragonball, using your best form to hold back against an opponent. Like what? What about the statements from Toppo and Vegeta about Kale not being underestimated and being called a monster? Jiren even recognized her TWICE! I'm sorry, the story is showing that Kale is on that Blue level. It's even in both mediums.

I don't care to speculate why it was the case, but we are given every indication that it is the case. Of course, people are more dead set on just complaining about it.

1. Goku witnessed Jiren one shot Kale, isn't impressed by it, and isn't intimidated and even immediately challenges Jiren.(Implying he also could have one shot Kale.)
2. At the end of episode 101, he let caulifla and kale escape and told them "both of you will get stronger and THEN we will have our REAL fight". Implyinig he didn't think either of them could give him a real fight as it stands.
3.In Episode 109, goku goes ssb and belmod says "at last he has brought out the true power of ssb" as if to say that prior to this point he didn't use the true power of SSB.
4. In episode 104, belmod and champa both recognize hit as the ace of u6, if kale was truly > blue goku, that wouldn't be the case especially since the last time champa saw hit, blue goku matched him/surpassed him.
5. After the fight with Kale, Goku shows no batte damage.
6. Goku powered up from SSJ2->SSB and said he would use "a little more power." Obviously indicating that he wasn't using the full-power of SSB and is corroborated by Belmod's statement in 109 when Goku powers up to SSB against Jiren.
7. When they show flashbacks of Kale's first Berserker transformation, they just show her beating up SSJ2 IIRC, as if to say that "her berserker form could Beat Goku's SSJ2!" And evidently not enough for full-power SSB. Otherwise, the more notable flash back would have been defeating the exponentially more powerful SSB

[Doctor.]

It isn't a retcon. Not at all. It is just a consequence of what happened in episodes 13/14. I never said it was weaker than it was before, just that the multiplier isn't the same. Obviously the SSG we see in the ToP still dwarfs BoG SSG. Also, don't' pretend that you aren't perfectly willing to use mental gymnastics to justify all the shit going on in the original series. (of course this isn't mental gymnastics in the first place.)

The original series has nothing to do with this discussion, but no, I don't. I criticize it often.

There are hints that I have already explained. Deducing that the SSG multiplier is nothing but a natural extrapolation from what we know. We know that Goku had already adapted to that level of power and retained it through experiencing it and "making it his own." He made it his own, and so naturally using the transformation wouldn't yield the same boost as it used to. We see that our natural suspicions have been confirmed when Goku doesn't smash Goku and Caulifla's faces in.

This is just headcanon, dude. At best, it's a theory. There's literally zero dialogue that supports this. Goku "making it his own" would logically mean he wouldn't even be able to turn SSG to begin with, not that the multiplier would be arbitrarily lower without explanation.

"SSB getting pushed around by everyone and everything".....lol.

Are you implying it doesn't?

yeah Base Goku just tanked all of Jiren's hits. Jiren didn't bother to dodge until Goku went SSG. But the point is that Goku didn't instantly one shot them.

Yes, just like Jiren didn't instantly one shot base Vegeta and base Goku in 128 and instead kept punching them. And whenever they threw a punch, he'd have to block or dodge. That qualifies as "giving a bit of trouble" in the same degree that the girls troubled Goku. Again, that's not evidence when everyone in this show can somehow give a bit of trouble to a massively stronger opponent.

Using intuition to rationalize natural results of the story's previous events? Yeah I don't think so, but if so, then people have been using head canon for anything and everything all the time.

Using mental gymnastics to explain a poorly explained, poorly planned story is the definition of headcanon.

What's more likely to me is that Toei didn't think of any of this shit and just decided to write what seemed cool; that seems like the most reasonable explanation to all the inconsistent nonsense that happens episode after episode, much more than throwaway dialogue from 4 arcs ago. What seems likely to you is that Toei has been planning this ever since the BoG arc and every little detail fits in cohesively and without any sort of inconsistency despite the numerous writers responsible for writing these episodes naturally having different perceptions about the characters' strength levels. If that's what you really think, then more power to you, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think you were delusional.

[Bergamo]

Why would Goku hold back against Kale when the strategy was to not to wast stamina in the TOP? He was already in SSJ2 against her, if he wanted to hold back power he would not have used Blue. Not to mention no where was it ever implied or stated that Goku was holding back. It's simply not canon Dragonball, using your best form to hold back against an opponent. Like what? What about the statements from Toppo and Vegeta about Kale not being underestimated and being called a monster? Jiren even recognized her TWICE! I'm sorry, the story is showing that Kale is on that Blue level. It's even in both mediums.

Goku wasn't holding back, but I don't think he was taking her seriously either. Frieza, Goku, Vegeta, and Toppo could individually dance circles around Kale with her predictable moves, but none of them were prepared for Kale to be so powerful.

[Bullza]

Do Piccolo and Trunks' comments about Gohan suggest that Gohan as of the Future Trunks Saga is weaker than Gohan during the Cell Games?

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

Do Piccolo and Trunks' comments about Gohan suggest that Gohan as of the Future Trunks Saga is weaker than Gohan during the Cell Games?

Nah.

I think it's more about his demeanour and daily disposition than anything else. As we see when Piccolo retrains Gohan for the Tournament of Power, what was holding him back was his mind, rather than his body. He had plenty of strength and potential to spare, but his mindset prevented him from bringing it out properly.

[Miracles]

Why would Goku hold back against Kale when the strategy was to not to wast stamina in the TOP? He was already in SSJ2 against her, if he wanted to hold back power he would not have used Blue. Not to mention no where was it ever implied or stated that Goku was holding back. It's simply not canon Dragonball, using your best form to hold back against an opponent. Like what? What about the statements from Toppo and Vegeta about Kale not being underestimated and being called a monster? Jiren even recognized her TWICE! I'm sorry, the story is showing that Kale is on that Blue level. It's even in both mediums.

I don't care to speculate why it was the case, but we are given every indication that it is the case. Of course, people are more dead set on just complaining about it.

1. Goku witnessed Jiren one shot Kale, isn't impressed by it, and isn't intimidated and even immediately challenges Jiren.(Implying he also could have one shot Kale.)
2. At the end of episode 101, he let caulifla and kale escape and told them "both of you will get stronger and THEN we will have our REAL fight". Implyinig he didn't think either of them could give him a real fight as it stands.
3.In Episode 109, goku goes ssb and belmod says "at last he has brought out the true power of ssb" as if to say that prior to this point he didn't use the true power of SSB.
4. In episode 104, belmod and champa both recognize hit as the ace of u6, if kale was truly > blue goku, that wouldn't be the case especially since the last time champa saw hit, blue goku matched him/surpassed him.
5. After the fight with Kale, Goku shows no batte damage.
6. Goku powered up from SSJ2->SSB and said he would use "a little more power." Obviously indicating that he wasn't using the full-power of SSB and is corroborated by Belmod's statement in 109 when Goku powers up to SSB against Jiren.
7. When they show flashbacks of Kale's first Berserker transformation, they just show her beating up SSJ2 IIRC, as if to say that "her berserker form could Beat Goku's SSJ2!" And evidently not enough for full-power SSB. Otherwise, the more notable flash back would have been defeating the exponentially more powerful SSB

None of those pertain to how it proves Goku was holding back against Kale in the slightest. Not to mention most of those separate events trying to be tied in to it are inaccurate too.

Why would Goku hold back against Kale when the strategy was to not to wast stamina in the TOP? He was already in SSJ2 against her, if he wanted to hold back power he would not have used Blue. Not to mention no where was it ever implied or stated that Goku was holding back. It's simply not canon Dragonball, using your best form to hold back against an opponent. Like what? What about the statements from Toppo and Vegeta about Kale not being underestimated and being called a monster? Jiren even recognized her TWICE! I'm sorry, the story is showing that Kale is on that Blue level. It's even in both mediums.

Goku wasn't holding back, but I don't think he was taking her seriously either. Frieza, Goku, Vegeta, and Toppo could individually dance circles around Kale with her predictable moves, but none of them were prepared for Kale to be so powerful.

Yeah, I can dig that. Goku wasn't holding back but he also wasn't taking her serious.

[Marlowe89]

I still like how people try to justify:

SSG Goku >>> SS2 Kale + SS2 Caulifla as back-up > SS2 Kale > LSS Kale >>>>> SSB Goku [Kamehameha] > SSB Goku > SSG Goku

As if there's no problem with the above sequence or any of a million other fights like it in Super. Or:

Base Kefla > SSG Goku > SS3 Vegetto

While at the same time saying:

Goku and Vegeta > Kale and Caulifla

"SSG has two different multipliers" has to be my favorite post-hoc rationalization so far because it's literally an even less convincing version of the two base theory. It's probably the most obnoxious example of headcanon I've read here.

Like, no, the Super anime's power scaling is just some of the most inconsistent shit we've ever had in the franchise. This is one out of dozens of different examples throughout the show's 100+ episode run. Toei was always like this, and as the DBH promotional anime demonstrates, they're still like this (if not worse than they were in the 90's).

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I still like how people try to justify:

SSG Goku >>> SS2 Kale + SS2 Caulifla as back-up > SS2 Kale > LSS Kale >>>>> SSB Goku [Kamehameha] > SSB Goku > SSG Goku

As if there's no problem with the above sequence or any of a million other fights like it in Super. Or:

Base Kefla > SSG Goku > SS3 Vegetto

While at the same time saying:

Goku and Vegeta > Kale and Caulifla

"SSG has two different multipliers" has to be my favorite post-hoc rationalization so far because it's literally an even less convincing version of the two base theory. It's probably the most obnoxious example of headcanon I've read here.

Like, no, the Super anime's power scaling is just some of the most inconsistent shit we've ever had in the franchise. This is one out of dozens of different examples throughout the show's 100+ episode run. Toei was always like this, and as the DBH promotional anime demonstrates, they're still like this (if not worse than they were in the 90's).

I dunno, I personally find it makes plenty of sense; can't just say something doesn't make sense overall if others can find logic where you can't.

Goku and Vegeta have made SSG's power their own overall and trained in its usage with SSB, and so when they transform, it doesn't yield the same proportional boost as doing the ritual does because it's not fundamentally the same method of achieving the form; in essence, by making a portion of its power their own, they've permanently altered how it boosts them. Another way of looking at is is that they took some of the power with them, but the rest still has to be transformed into to access all of it; this remaining power is the equally strong but proportionally smaller-boosting SSG form.

Another way of looking at based on my own interpretation: you have a bottle of water, with it being full representing SSG's power. Before the ritual and Whis's training, Goku and Vegeta were empty bottles. After, they're permanently partially full, but filling the bottle to the top still equals the same amount as when it was filled from empty a.k.a. still needing to actually turn SSG to access all of SSG's power; the capacity hasn't changed, but how much Goku and Vegeta take up of the overall amount has.

[RecolorSaiyan]

So then you are saying that the stronger your base form is, the less of a multiplier ssg gives you?

With goku if you want to make that argument, i could hear you out cause he did the ritual and retained the power but vegeta never did the ritual as far as we know, he just tapped into it via training so he never made the power of ssg "his own"

[Marlowe89]

I dunno, I personally find it makes plenty of sense; can't just say something doesn't make sense overall if others can find logic where you can't.

You're not finding "logic" anywhere if you're constantly making rationalizations up to force the material to work internally in your head. That's flawed Watsonian reasoning, and it's about as unreliable as a secondhand testimony in court.

And yeah, I can in fact say that something doesn't make sense if there isn't a modicum of evidence in the show to support it. By evidence, I mean actual, direct evidence, not the "I can circumstantially take this scene out of context and twist it to support what I'm saying" kind of evidence. It doesn't work that way. I could argue that my dad works at Nintendo and my mom is a flying unicorn zombie from outer space, but that doesn't make my interpretation any less ridiculous and wholly unfounded.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

I dunno, I personally find it makes plenty of sense; can't just say something doesn't make sense overall if others can find logic where you can't.

You're not finding "logic" anywhere if you're constantly making rationalizations up to force the material to work internally in your head. That's flawed Watsonian reasoning, and it's about as unreliable as a secondhand testimony in court.

And yeah, I can in fact say that something doesn't make sense if there isn't a modicum of evidence in the show to support it. By evidence, I mean actual, direct evidence, not the "I can circumstantially take this scene out of context and twist it to support what I'm saying" kind of evidence. It doesn't work that way. I could argue that my dad works at Nintendo and my mom is a flying unicorn zombie from outer space, but that doesn't make my interpretation any less ridiculous and wholly unfounded.

Well, there's not a modicum of evidence in the show that outright disproves it either.

Goku absorbed the power of SSG, and Vegeta obtained it as well; they're both not as strong as SSG as seen in the Tournament of Power, yet are clearly stronger than before they obtained the power of SSG. In both versions of the DBS story, Potara Fusions are shown to be quite strong from the fusions of the Saiyan characters, what with base Vegito blowing up Merged Zamasu, base Kefla taking on SSG Goku, and SS Kefla taking on Ultimate Gohan whom is implied to be approaching his dad's power in SSB.

In a similar vein, there's not a modicum of evidence outright disproving the idea that Goku and Vegeta are way stronger in all forms than they were before Beerus awoke; nothing ever directly tells us their power has ever been decreased from how far it's come, and instead constant progression has been emphasized.

You look at it one way, and I look at it another; we both take the facts as we see them, and we interpret those facts as objective in our own minds. I think it's a testament to how inconsistent the series appears to be to people that we can all view things differently as fact. I dunno, I guess I'm just used to not admitting something doesn't logically follow or make sense where possible; if you're gonna admit defeat, why bother with whatever it is in the first place?

But I'm also aware plenty of people don't share my views. It's late, and I feel like trying to make people "admit to their obvious inability to see the complete objective facts" only frustrates everyone and creates useless debate about who gets to determine what exactly is an "objective and unchanging fact" about a subjectively viewed work of fiction that's subject to change at the whims of its creators. Feel free to engage me on this while I sleep if you guys want, but at the end of the day, we're just nerds arguing about a Japanese show about superpowered martial artists beating each other up.

[PFM18]

This is just headcanon, dude. At best, it's a theory. There's literally zero dialogue that supports this.

It is literally just a logical deduction based on the information that we are given. Call it what you want, but it makes perfect sense that after Goku "absorbed"/adapted to the power of SSG it wouldn't yield the same increase. Really, it is just intuition at that point. I assumed that was the case long before we had clear confirmation in the ToP. You look at it as some inconsistency to whine about, I see it as confirming the suspicions that I already had.

Goku "making it his own" would logically mean he wouldn't even be able to turn SSG to begin with, not that the multiplier would be arbitrarily lower without explanation.

Well, no that doesn't make any sense because the defining factor of SSG is not the power it is the fact that it is the first form that uses God Ki. His SSJ form did not use God Ki, but he had managed to become as powerful as SSG anyway, but utilizing God Ki should still allow you to use the SSG transformation. It shouldn't have been an indication that he can't use the SSG form anymore for that reason.

Yes, just like Jiren didn't instantly one shot base Vegeta and base Goku in 128 and instead kept punching them. And whenever they threw a punch, he'd have to block or dodge. That qualifies as "giving a bit of trouble" in the same degree that the girls troubled Goku. Again, that's not evidence when everyone in this show can somehow give a bit of trouble to a massively stronger opponent.

I mean yeah every single time they are on the ropes at any time ever this happens. It isn't exactly analogous. Freeza slapped around Base Goku/Vegeta for a while when there obviously was a huge gap there, Kid Buu didn't instantly kill Base Vegeta either. I don't really think that these are analogous situations at all to Goku vs Kale/Caulifla where there was give on both sides of the fight and Goku just had an edge against the pair but it was clear that it wasn't an easy win. If anything, Jiren was just humoring Vegeta out of respect because we know he respects Vegeta at this point in the tournament. I don't know it doesn't' make a ton of sense, but that's plot convenience at it's best.

What seems likely to you is that Toei has been planning this ever since the BoG arc and every little detail fits in cohesively and without any sort of inconsistency despite the numerous writers responsible for writing these episodes naturally having different perceptions about the characters' strength levels. If that's what you really think, then more power to you, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't think you were delusional.

I don't know if they were planning this the entire time, but I don't care to speculate about their intentions that's a fruitless endeavor that is purely subjective in nature. Were they planning it this entire time? Maybe not, but I don't really give a shit either way. Toriyama wasn't planning ahead of time either, he wrote on the fly. All that matters is that it makes sense. I frankly don't care if they had any of this in mind and just threw things together, it could have been an improbable miracle that things worked out but it really doesn't matter either way. There's no way of knowing for certain and it's irrelevant regardless. The fact that it is a perfectly reasonable endeavor to put together a "power level list" for DBS without contradicting any statements/feats shows that it really ins't that bad.

You're just acting as though you know for a fact that each individual writer's personal perception of the character's strength is seeping into the story when you don't know any of this shit for certain. You're just speculating about this crap and insisting upon whining about things that you don't even really understand in the first place.

None of those pertain to how it proves Goku was holding back against Kale in the slightest. Not to mention most of those separate events trying to be tied in to it are inaccurate too.

Seriously? So you're just going to dismiss everything without refuting any of it. Essentially "I'm right because I said so" huh?

Belmod saying that only in 109 Goku has released the true power of SSB isn't evidence?
Goku literally saying he will use a bit more power isn't evidence?
Why would Goku literally say after his fight with her to get stronger so that they can have a real right?? Because she already kicked his ass at full-power but it wasn't a real fight?
If Kale dominated SSB Goku at full-power, why wouldn't everyone still regard Hit as the team's ace?
Why wouldn't Goku be intimidated by Jiren one shotting Kale and immediately challenge him?

"SSG has two different multipliers" has to be my favorite post-hoc rationalization so far because it's literally an even less convincing version of the two base theory. It's probably the most obnoxious example of headcanon I've read here.

It's not a "version" of two base theory. That's ridiculous. Completely unrelated things. I can't even take these claims seriously when you defended the horse shit that was Roshi vs Jiren as if it was a perfectly reasonable scene.

Another way of looking at is is that they took some of the power with them, but the rest still has to be transformed into to access all of it; this remaining power is the equally strong but proportionally smaller-boosting SSG form.

I agreed with you until you said this. SSG isn't going to be some arbitrary constant value throughout this entire time. Transformations function as multipliers, if you get stronger, the respective transformation becomes stronger, they will never stay at the same level of power. Especially since Goku was already stated to surpass SSG as a SSJ in episode 14.