Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Discussion specifically regarding the "Dragon Ball Super" TV series premiering July 2015 in Japan, including individual threads for each episode.

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ZombieVito
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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Fri Jul 20, 2018 10:51 pm

PFM18 wrote: He obviously learned at some point how to control KKx20 as a SSB. He uses it for giant chunks of his fight against Jiren with no negative repercussions. But yeah the fight vs the U3 guys was all about saving stamina. Gohan was mindful of that.
Oh, I'm not saying he didn't mastered it. Only that he didn't during the FT arc.

Hell, the Commeson Vegeta arc and the FT arc happened in a matter of days from each other. Goku doesn't have the time to master Kaioken.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:06 am

ZombieVito wrote:
PFM18 wrote: He obviously learned at some point how to control KKx20 as a SSB. He uses it for giant chunks of his fight against Jiren with no negative repercussions. But yeah the fight vs the U3 guys was all about saving stamina. Gohan was mindful of that.
Oh, I'm not saying he didn't mastered it. Only that he didn't during the FT arc.

Hell, the Commeson Vegeta arc and the FT arc happened in a matter of days from each other. Goku doesn't have the time to master Kaioken.
Oh ok that makes sense I gotcha

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by wolflonnie » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:15 am

I think Goku was starting to get acclimated to KK during the Zamasu arc, but not as much as the ToP, else he would've used it against Black.
It was between the Zamasu arc and the ToP arc he managed to "master" the SSBKK technique.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 10:49 am

Now that the translated chapter is out, people were completely off-the-mark as usual.
  • Kale's strength is confirmed to fluctuate. Cabba mentions that it keeps rising as she loses her senses, and later on, Vegeta says "she's already losing power" by the time she gets overwhelmed by Universe 11.
  • In addition to her declining strength at the end, Universe 11 also has the advantage because of their superior coordination, not their power. For them, her movements were so predictable that they could easily dodge and find openings after observing her in battle. Tupper isn't stronger than Anilaza, for example.
  • Kefla's power consists of Kale's, but her mind is fully intact, so her power isn't unstable. That's why someone on Gohan's level can presumably give her a fight while Kale could be much harder to deal with unless you were observing her movements prior to that fight.
That's the gist of it. No direct inconsistencies thanks to two factors: Kale's power wasn't static, and her weakness wasn't related to strength. Kefla doesn't have that weakness, but her power isn't skyrocketing either.

We've gotta stop going on premature rants before the dialogue is officially available. If Toyotaro usually takes the time to explain his thought process through in-universe exposition, he wouldn't suddenly stop now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by PFM18 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:58 am

Marlowe89 wrote:Now that the translated chapter is out, people were completely off-the-mark as usual.
  • Kale's strength is confirmed to fluctuate. Cabba mentions that it keeps rising as she loses her senses, and later on, Vegeta says "she's already losing power" by the time she gets overwhelmed by Universe 11.
  • In addition to her declining strength at the end, Universe 11 also has the advantage because of their superior coordination, not their power. For them, her movements were so predictable that they could easily dodge and find openings after observing her in battle. Tupper isn't stronger than Anilaza, for example.
  • Kefla's power consists of Kale's, but her mind is fully intact, so her power isn't unstable. That's why someone on Gohan's level can presumably give her a fight while Kale could be much harder to deal with unless you were observing her movements prior to that fight.
That's the gist of it. No direct inconsistencies thanks to two factors: Kale's power wasn't static, and her weakness wasn't related to strength. Kefla doesn't have that weakness, but her power isn't skyrocketing either.
Yeah this is just intellectually disingenuous.

She goes from competing with, if not outright overpowering Golden Freeza, and CSSB Goku, and in this chapter he almost eliminates CSSB Vegeta before he uses some kind of ki sword to save himself, to later being dominated by the weak Pride Troopers. The same Pride Troopers who got easily handled by SSJ Goku, and were called out by Dyspo as being weak. It shouldn't matter if her movements are predictable. They shouldn't even have any time to react let alone win against her.

As far as Kefla goes, this isn't a matter of her power being unstable or stable in that specific instance. That was a ki blast intended for Jiren and Goku that she planned on taking out both at once. Therefore, this couldn't have been a blast that is restrained or suppressed in any way. And yet, Gohan is able to easily deflect her blast like it is nothing. Then he even shows confidence against her. It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You are just making excuses for Toyotaro's incompetence.
We've gotta stop going on premature rants before the dialogue is officially available.
It doesn't particularly matter if these rants are "premature" or not because they ultimately always end up being warranted, reasonable complaints.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ZombieVito » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:01 pm

Marlowe89 wrote:Now that the translated chapter is out, people were completely off-the-mark as usual.
  • Kale's strength is confirmed to fluctuate. Cabba mentions that it keeps rising as she loses her senses, and later on, Vegeta says "she's already losing power" by the time she gets overwhelmed by Universe 11.
  • In addition to her declining strength at the end, Universe 11 also has the advantage because of their superior coordination, not their power. For them, her movements were so predictable that they could easily dodge and find openings after observing her in battle. Tupper isn't stronger than Anilaza, for example.
  • Kefla's power consists of Kale's, but her mind is fully intact, so her power isn't unstable. That's why someone on Gohan's level can presumably give her a fight while Kale could be much harder to deal with unless you were observing her movements prior to that fight.
That's the gist of it. No direct inconsistencies thanks to two factors: Kale's power wasn't static, and her weakness wasn't related to strength. Kefla doesn't have that weakness, but her power isn't skyrocketing either.

We've gotta stop going on premature rants before the dialogue is officially available. If Toyotaro usually takes the time to explain his thought process through in-universe exposition, he wouldn't suddenly stop now.
Wait. So Kefla didn't get stronger by the fusion?

What the hell Toyo?

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Marlowe89 » Sat Jul 21, 2018 12:28 pm

PFM18 wrote:She goes from competing with, if not outright overpowering Golden Freeza, and CSSB Goku
I've already addressed this a few pages ago.
PFM18 wrote:It shouldn't matter if her movements are predictable.
I've already addressed this in the post you quoted. The chapter has addressed this. Vegeta flat-out said she wasn't as strong as before, which would allow her movements being predictable to take precedence in this case.
PFM18 wrote:That was a ki blast intended for Jiren and Goku that she planned on taking out both at once.
A ki blast that was aimed at base Goku. A ki blast that Jiren easily could have knocked away because Kefla has no idea how strong Jiren might be. Nothing indicates how much power she was putting into it.
PFM18 wrote:You are just making excuses for Toyotaro's incompetence.
No. That's it. This is where I draw the line in my interactions with you.

As has been pointed out by multiple users, you have an odd habit of being unnecessarily confrontational to the point that you assume other users' personal motives where none are involved on an almost daily basis. You can't go two posts without consistently making these patronizing kneejerk remarks at everyone who doesn't hold the same opinion as you, even as recently as that needlessly sarcastic post you made in the manga discussion thread today, and then you have the gall to claim that you're just looking for a "friendly" discussion in threads where you exhibit the same behavior. I'm hardly the first person on the forum to point this out when it comes to your attitude, and I'm sure I won't be the last. Tired of dealing with it. You're on my ignore list now, so I won't be able to read any of your responses after this point.

Seeya.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by TheSaiyanGod » Sat Jul 21, 2018 1:19 pm

PFM18 wrote:
Marlowe89 wrote:Now that the translated chapter is out, people were completely off-the-mark as usual.
  • Kale's strength is confirmed to fluctuate. Cabba mentions that it keeps rising as she loses her senses, and later on, Vegeta says "she's already losing power" by the time she gets overwhelmed by Universe 11.
  • In addition to her declining strength at the end, Universe 11 also has the advantage because of their superior coordination, not their power. For them, her movements were so predictable that they could easily dodge and find openings after observing her in battle. Tupper isn't stronger than Anilaza, for example.
  • Kefla's power consists of Kale's, but her mind is fully intact, so her power isn't unstable. That's why someone on Gohan's level can presumably give her a fight while Kale could be much harder to deal with unless you were observing her movements prior to that fight.
That's the gist of it. No direct inconsistencies thanks to two factors: Kale's power wasn't static, and her weakness wasn't related to strength. Kefla doesn't have that weakness, but her power isn't skyrocketing either.
Yeah this is just intellectually disingenuous.

She goes from competing with, if not outright overpowering Golden Freeza, and CSSB Goku, and in this chapter he almost eliminates CSSB Vegeta before he uses some kind of ki sword to save himself, to later being dominated by the weak Pride Troopers. The same Pride Troopers who got easily handled by SSJ Goku, and were called out by Dyspo as being weak. It shouldn't matter if her movements are predictable. They shouldn't even have any time to react let alone win against her.

As far as Kefla goes, this isn't a matter of her power being unstable or stable in that specific instance. That was a ki blast intended for Jiren and Goku that she planned on taking out both at once. Therefore, this couldn't have been a blast that is restrained or suppressed in any way. And yet, Gohan is able to easily deflect her blast like it is nothing. Then he even shows confidence against her. It just makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

You are just making excuses for Toyotaro's incompetence.
Freeza said that if he fought seriously, he could easily defeat Kale. Goku CSSB was not injured with any kale blows, and she just pushed Vegeta and Toppo.

In fact, shortly after Kyabe explain the situation, Vegeta turns his attention to fight against Toppo again, implying that Kale was not an opponent on his level.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Bullza » Sat Jul 21, 2018 9:21 pm

Reading the official translation today, Vados does indeed say that Kefla has Kales sheer power and Cauliflas sense of battle combined in one body.

So Kefla may not be stronger than Kale?

That's how it always worked before and Gowasu even said so with Merged Zamasu but maybe it's different now.

So presumably Gohan is going to transform into his Ultimate Form and he's either going to beat her or they'll go out but they'll likely be on par.

If so then then if Goku, Vegeta and Frieza are stronger than Gohan then they should also be stronger than Kefla and at the same time Kale as well.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sat Jul 21, 2018 11:23 pm

Bullza wrote:Reading the official translation today, Vados does indeed say that Kefla has Kales sheer power and Cauliflas sense of battle combined in one body.
So Kefla may not be stronger than Kale?
That's how it always worked before and Gowasu even said so with Merged Zamasu but maybe it's different now.
So presumably Gohan is going to transform into his Ultimate Form and he's either going to beat her or they'll go out but they'll likely be on par.
If so then then if Goku, Vegeta and Frieza are stronger than Gohan then they should also be stronger than Kefla and at the same time Kale as well.
I feel Gohan will put up a fight, but will be on the losing end, and then someone may come in and help him. I'm thinking it will be Frieza looking for revenge after Kale whooped him, and then Gohan may go out as well similar to how he and Dypo went out except this time it will be Kefla. 17 and Roshi could step in as they haven't done anything in a while.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 12:48 pm

I guess Toyotaro is trying to fix Kefla power level in the anime (being God-tier and such) in the manga she might end up being weaker then Boo arc Vegetto, so Gohan might get a chance to win this
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:33 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:I guess Toyotaro is trying to fix Kefla power level in the anime (being God-tier and such) in the manga she might end up being weaker then Boo arc Vegetto, so Gohan might get a chance to win this
But if she is at least as strong as Kale, then she should be at least god tier.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:55 pm

dragon boss z wrote:
jeffbr92 wrote:I guess Toyotaro is trying to fix Kefla power level in the anime (being God-tier and such) in the manga she might end up being weaker then Boo arc Vegetto, so Gohan might get a chance to win this
But if she is at least as strong as Kale, then she should be at least god tier.
SSJ Kefla (in the manga) should certainly be God-tier. Unless we completely disregard how Potara works in Dragon Ball.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by jeffbr92 » Sun Jul 22, 2018 2:59 pm

Lord Beerus wrote:SSJ Kefla (in the manga) should certainly be God-tier. Unless we completely disregard how Potara works in Dragon Ball.
They already did that once, Potara should be eternal but then was changed to be temporary for mortals.
Power levels are not just big numbers:

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Lord Beerus » Sun Jul 22, 2018 3:24 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:SSJ Kefla (in the manga) should certainly be God-tier. Unless we completely disregard how Potara works in Dragon Ball.
They already did that once, Potara should be eternal but then was changed to be temporary for mortals.
To play devil's advocate, Toriyama already tread on the toes of the "Potara is a permanent fusion" scenario back in the Majin Boo arc.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by dragon boss z » Sun Jul 22, 2018 4:11 pm

jeffbr92 wrote:
Lord Beerus wrote:SSJ Kefla (in the manga) should certainly be God-tier. Unless we completely disregard how Potara works in Dragon Ball.
They already did that once, Potara should be eternal but then was changed to be temporary for mortals.
That's kind of irrelevant. Kefla was stated to have the power of Kale and the fighting ability of Caulifla. Kale was as strong if not stronger than Golden Frieza and SSB Goku (however she would lose in a fight due to her being slow and easy to read). But she lost that weakness when she became Kefla. So unless the next chapter comes out and contradicts what has been previously shown and stated ssj Kefla is above SSB tier right now.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by ankokudaishogun » Mon Jul 23, 2018 1:27 pm

Bullza wrote:Reading the official translation today, Vados does indeed say that Kefla has Kales sheer power and Cauliflas sense of battle combined in one body.
So Kefla may not be stronger than Kale?
I'm going to guess Kafla's power will keep rising like Kale's, but with Caulifla's control she'll be much more effective, reaching Blue-levels of power combined with fighting prowess.

Also: this is a fusion of Berserker Kale and SS1 Caulifla.
They also have quite the different relationship compared to SS2 Kale and SS2 Caulifla in the anime.
We know from Old Kaiohshin's words in thr Majin Buu arc that the relationship of the parts is an element in the potera fusion output power algorithm.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:00 am

Bullza wrote:Reading the official translation today, Vados does indeed say that Kefla has Kales sheer power and Cauliflas sense of battle combined in one body.

So Kefla may not be stronger than Kale?

That's how it always worked before and Gowasu even said so with Merged Zamasu but maybe it's different now.

So presumably Gohan is going to transform into his Ultimate Form and he's either going to beat her or they'll go out but they'll likely be on par.

If so then then if Goku, Vegeta and Frieza are stronger than Gohan then they should also be stronger than Kefla and at the same time Kale as well.
You're not factoring in the ability of the potarra. If you do that Kale is in no way stronger than Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Miracles » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:31 am

Bullza wrote:Reading the official translation today, Vados does indeed say that Kefla has Kales sheer power and Cauliflas sense of battle combined in one body.

So Kefla may not be stronger than Kale?

That's how it always worked before and Gowasu even said so with Merged Zamasu but maybe it's different now.

So presumably Gohan is going to transform into his Ultimate Form and he's either going to beat her or they'll go out but they'll likely be on par.

If so then then if Goku, Vegeta and Frieza are stronger than Gohan then they should also be stronger than Kefla and at the same time Kale as well.
You're not factoring in the ability of the potarra. If you do that Kale is in no way stronger than Kefla.

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Re: Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

Post by Saturnine » Wed Jul 25, 2018 1:29 pm

Yeah, I'm not buying Kefla not being any stronger than Caulifla. That's an insult to the Potaras. If it were Metamorese fusion, no one would even suggest something like this.

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