Dragon Ball Super Strength Discussion Thread

[Bullza]

According to the manga.

1. Goku didn't use his Full Power against Toppo.

2. Frieza has grown even stronger due to a lot of image training. Some people questioned if he had actually gotten stronger in the anime well he did.

It's a shame they didn't fight because then we could have known if Base Goku and Final Form Frieza are equal of it was transformed.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

According to the manga.

1. Goku didn't use his Full Power against Toppo.

2. Frieza has grown even stronger due to a lot of image training. Some people questioned if he had actually gotten stronger in the anime well he did.

The two mediums might not always be compatible, but it's always nice to see when they are and help clarify things.

[Kenneth La Torre]

According to the manga.

1. Goku didn't use his Full Power against Toppo.

2. Frieza has grown even stronger due to a lot of image training. Some people questioned if he had actually gotten stronger in the anime well he did.

It's a shame they didn't fight because then we could have known if Base Goku and Final Form Frieza are equal of it was transformed.

This just proves my point that toppos own power is nowhere near G.o.D level, and that he is indeed gonna get boosted to G.o.D levels by means he doesnt know about.


Beerus was shocked that someone above toppo existed, and whis says that the gods dont know every mortal out there.

[PerhapsTheOtherOne]

So, the question remains....... was Goku using regular SSB, or was he using Complete SSB?

The manga chapter only showed Goku simply transforming, right? The argument goes into whether or not he can simply transform into Complete SSB on the fly now without the need to seal off the Ki leakage.

And the next debate comes from whether Goku's regular SSB or SSB/KK in the anime is equivalent to Complete SSB in the manga.

[Black Hawk]

Just my two cents, but when Gokū transformed into a SSJ Blue during his match with Top, he initially did have the standard SSJ Blue aura. However, in the next panel they appear in, Gokū's aura only appears around his hand, along with a bright, jagged aura, indicating that he might have been putting his Complete SSJ Blue power into his fist for a one-punch knock-out. As we know, though, Gokū let his guard down and Top dodged and then went for either a gut shot or a yippee shot.

This could, in light of new information from Chapter 32, be attributed to Gokū letting his guard down and thinking the fight was as good as over once he went SSJ Blue, as Top, after powering up presumably to his maximum, appeared to trade blows evenly with SSJ Red Gokū but seemingly failed to damage Gokū after his attack struck Gokū in midair.

If I had to estimate Top's "presumed maximum" I'd mentioned, I'd place him approximately equal to SSJ Red but below both levels of SSJ Blue. We'll probably find out for certain in the tournament itself.

[Kenneth La Torre]

Just my two cents, but when Gokū transformed into a SSJ Blue during his match with Top, he initially did have the standard SSJ Blue aura. However, in the next panel they appear in, Gokū's aura only appears around his hand, along with a bright, jagged aura, indicating that he might have been putting his Complete SSJ Blue power into his fist for a one-punch knock-out. As we know, though, Gokū let his guard down and Top dodged and then went for either a gut shot or a yippee shot.

This could, in light of new information from Chapter 32, be attributed to Gokū letting his guard down and thinking the fight was as good as over once he went SSJ Blue, as Top, after powering up presumably to his maximum, appeared to trade blows evenly with SSJ Red Gokū but seemingly failed to damage Gokū after his attack struck Gokū in midair.

If I had to estimate Top's "presumed maximum" I'd mentioned, I'd place him approximately equal to SSJ Red but below both levels of SSJ Blue. We'll probably find out for certain in the tournament itself.

You are stupidly underestimating toppo. The dude is definitely at the level of blue.

[Black Hawk]

You are stupidly underestimating toppo. The dude is definitely at the level of blue.

In the anime, I'd have to agree; in fact, I'd actually place anime Top above SSJ Blue. In the manga, however, we have no indication at all that Top can match a SSJ Blue; the only logical conclusion to be drawn until we have more information is that he isn't quite there, as we only saw him match a SSJ Red, whereas both Gokū and Beerus appeared confident that SSJ Blue would be too much for him.

[The gr]

Toppo is stronger than SSB and is weaker than a mastered SSB.Here my scale.

Mastered SSB:5

Toppo:4

Normal SSB:3

SSG:2.

Beerus did mentioned the gap between SSG and SSB are not that big however when you mastered it you get really strong.

[Kenneth La Torre]

You are stupidly underestimating toppo. The dude is definitely at the level of blue.

In the anime, I'd have to agree; in fact, I'd actually place anime Top above SSJ Blue. In the manga, however, we have no indication at all that Top can match a SSJ Blue; the only logical conclusion to be drawn until we have more information is that he isn't quite there, as we only saw him match a SSJ Red, whereas both Gokū and Beerus appeared confident that SSJ Blue would be too much for him.

And thats where you are wrong. We have every reason to believe toppo is above or at least equal to a ssb. Goku not using his full power in the manga is a different case than in the anime, due to the fact that they have two variations of blue. One that is at least fusion zamasu level, and the normal one. The only thing this chapter clarified about goku not using his full power was that toppo is indeed not fused zamasu level, like many other thought he would be. Which makes sense which the anime in terms of scaling.

Not that it matters anyway, as toppo will mostlikely get a huge power up in 125

[Black Hawk]

And thats where you are wrong. We have every reason to believe toppo is above or at least equal to a ssb. Goku not using his full power in the manga is a different case than in the anime, due to the fact that they have two variations of blue. One that is at least fusion zamasu level, and the normal one. The only thing this chapter clarified about goku not using his full power was that toppo is indeed not fused zamasu level, like many other thought he would be. Which makes sense which the anime in terms of scaling.

I'm not quite seeing the evidence of Top equaling SSJ Blue Gokū. While Chapter 32 indeed only confirmed that Top isn't on par with Complete SSJ Blue Gokū, Chapter 29 also only depicted Top as being able to match a SSJ Red; however, we don't know if Top's powering up was to his maximum or not. There doesn't appear to be concrete evidence one way or the other regarding how Top compares to standard SSJ Blue (at least, one that has his guard up); therefore, we can only draw tentative conclusions on the matter based on circumstantial evidence until we are given more concrete information later in the tournament. While our tentative conclusions differ, neither one is grounded in concrete evidence, it seems; my conclusion isn't more valid than anyone else's.

Not that it matters anyway, as toppo will mostlikely get a huge power up in 125

Agreed. I expect destroyer deity Top will probably exceed Complete SSJ Blue, at least somewhat.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I expect toppo to equal current destroyers. A Completed ssb is currently nothing compared to vegetas new form and gokus current ssb kaioken x20. The fact that tittle 126 says that vegeta is going to surpass even the gods suggest that toppo would mostlikely be at the actaul G.o.D tier, if not ecxtremely close to it.

EDIT:
according to herms, the correct translation of when goku said that he was holding back, was actually that he underestimated toppo. So take that as you will.

[Green]

While I don't think mastering Blue powers you up like Kaiokenx20 does, I'd say it's a pretty big boost.
SSR Black was a good deal stronger than SSB Vegeta, who had to mimic Goku's tactic by switching God and Blue in order to fight him. The latter is confident that fusion will be enough for both Goku and Vegeta, and after merging Zamasu says that his power is better than what he had imagined.

MSSB ~ Merged Zamasu (5) >> Merged Zamasu (expected)(3) >> SSG/B Vegeta (2) > SSR Black (1,5) > SS Black (1,1) >= SSB Vegeta (1)

[TheSaiyanGod]

I expect toppo to equal current destroyers. A Completed ssb is currently nothing compared to vegetas new form and gokus current ssb kaioken x20. The fact that tittle 126 says that vegeta is going to surpass even the gods suggest that toppo would mostlikely be at the actaul G.o.D tier, if not ecxtremely close to it.

EDIT:
according to herms, the correct translation of when goku said that he was holding back, was actually that he underestimated toppo. So take that as you will.

I believe that the MSSB really can be as strong as the SSB KK x20.
It is difficult to define the power scale comparing manga and anime.

The power difference between Black in the manga and Black in the anime is not that great. Maybe Black in the manga is even stronger.
After all, only in the form of SSJ he rivaled Vegeta SSB and in SSJ Rosé defeated him with few blows. In the anime, Vegeta / Goku SSB still managed to rival Black SSJ Rosé.

So, Merged Zamasu in the manga can be as strong as Merged Zamasu in the anime.
And Goku MSSB was able to rival Merged Zamasu. So the power up of the MSSB is really too big to be able to do that.

[JulianStyles]

According to the manga. Krillin is a out of shape scared bitch. Why did Toei try to hype this character up? Exactly why Super is ending because of mistakes like that.

[Kenneth La Torre]

I expect toppo to equal current destroyers. A Completed ssb is currently nothing compared to vegetas new form and gokus current ssb kaioken x20. The fact that tittle 126 says that vegeta is going to surpass even the gods suggest that toppo would mostlikely be at the actaul G.o.D tier, if not ecxtremely close to it.

EDIT:
according to herms, the correct translation of when goku said that he was holding back, was actually that he underestimated toppo. So take that as you will.

I believe that the MSSB really can be as strong as the SSB KK x20.
It is difficult to define the power scale comparing manga and anime.

The power difference between Black in the manga and Black in the anime is not that great. Maybe Black in the manga is even stronger.
After all, only in the form of SSJ he rivaled Vegeta SSB and in SSJ Rosé defeated him with few blows. In the anime, Vegeta / Goku SSB still managed to rival Black SSJ Rosé.

So, Merged Zamasu in the manga can be as strong as Merged Zamasu in the anime.
And Goku MSSB was able to rival Merged Zamasu. So the power up of the MSSB is really too big to be able to do that.

I would have agreed with you, if it wasnt for the fact that as of episide 123, goku and vegeta are much more powerful than what they were before. They are getting zenkais on the level of goku black. The fact that they are pressuring a less suppressed jiren (that is in fact stronger than he has ever been in the tournament). And this new vegeta form is most certainly far superior than what a cssb is (the dude was described as having boundless energy, and was describe the grand priest with the same words as whis described Ultra Instinct).
Call it bad writting, but thats how it is.

[Bullza]

Has anyone aside from Black actually had a Zenkai in Super? I see a few people say that but I don't recall anything like that being said.

In the manga they even said that Goku and Vegeta couldn't get Zenkais unlike Black.

[buutenks]

Pretty sure Mssj blue=kkx20 blue. Since Vegeta doesnt have that, Toei gave him a power up form, which is basically Super blue Vegeta.

Has anyone aside from Black actually had a Zenkai in Super? I see a few people say that but I don't recall anything like that being said.

In the manga they even said that Goku and Vegeta couldn't get Zenkais unlike Black.

Not stated, but Goku got much stronger now than when he was in ep 109/110.

[TheSaiyanGod]

I expect toppo to equal current destroyers. A Completed ssb is currently nothing compared to vegetas new form and gokus current ssb kaioken x20. The fact that tittle 126 says that vegeta is going to surpass even the gods suggest that toppo would mostlikely be at the actaul G.o.D tier, if not ecxtremely close to it.

EDIT:
according to herms, the correct translation of when goku said that he was holding back, was actually that he underestimated toppo. So take that as you will.

I believe that the MSSB really can be as strong as the SSB KK x20.
It is difficult to define the power scale comparing manga and anime.

The power difference between Black in the manga and Black in the anime is not that great. Maybe Black in the manga is even stronger.
After all, only in the form of SSJ he rivaled Vegeta SSB and in SSJ Rosé defeated him with few blows. In the anime, Vegeta / Goku SSB still managed to rival Black SSJ Rosé.

So, Merged Zamasu in the manga can be as strong as Merged Zamasu in the anime.
And Goku MSSB was able to rival Merged Zamasu. So the power up of the MSSB is really too big to be able to do that.

I would have agreed with you, if it wasnt for the fact that as of episide 123, goku and vegeta are much more powerful than what they were before. They are getting zenkais on the level of goku black. The fact that they are pressuring a less suppressed jiren (that is in fact stronger than he has ever been in the tournament). And this new vegeta form is most certainly far superior than what a cssb is (the dude was described as having boundless energy, and was describe the grand priest with the same words as whis described Ultra Instinct).
Call it bad writting, but thats how it is.

I thought you were referring to SSB KK x20 from EP 109.

But if you're talking about the Goku SSB KK x20 current and Vegeta with their new form, then really they are much stronger than at the beginning of the tournament;

In that case, maybe Goku and Vegeta in the anime are now much stronger than Goku and Vegeta in the manga, but possibly both in the manga will also get stronger.

Has anyone aside from Black actually had a Zenkai in Super? I see a few people say that but I don't recall anything like that being said.

In the manga they even said that Goku and Vegeta couldn't get Zenkais unlike Black.

On EP 63, after Goku was defeated, getting injured and going back to the past, Black says he would come back much stronger than before.
Black did not know about RoSaT, since he was surprised by Vegeta's great power increase, so he was probably referring to zenkai

[Lord Beerus]

- SSJB Kaioken and Vegeta's new SSJB form battle Jiren and seem to have him on the ropes and even land a Kamehameha/Final Flash combo attack on him..
- ...But Jiren emerges unscathed. The battle resumes between the three of them.
- Dyspo battles with Final Form Freeza but Freeza has the clear advantage and kicks his ass
- Freeza goes Golden and gives Dyspo the ass-kicking of a lifetime.
- Dyspo then goes into "Super Speed Mode", becomes even faster. This lead to Dyspo beating up Golden Freeza.
- Ultimate Gohan steps in to help Golden Freeza.
- Golden Freeza produces several deaths beams across the arena to act a cage and limit Dyspo's movements.
- Ultimate Gohan and Dyspo duke it out and Gohan gains the advantage.
- Dyspo is caught by one of Freeza's Death Beams, paralysing him, and Gohan goes in for the kill...
- ...But Freeza runs out of stamina to keep up his Death Beam "cage", allowing Dyspo to escape and give Dyspo a chance to counterattack...
- ...But Gohan outfoxed him and puts him in a chokehold and then tell Freeza to blast him and Dyspo out of the arena. Golden Freeza obliges. Gohan and Dyspo are out.

NEP shows Toppo getting blasted by Golden Freeza's Death Beams but then he emits an eerie aura...

[dbzfan7]

https://twitter.com/Herms98/status/954871060993732608

There's also this, but I find that hard to believe.